British Railway Operations

[Hugh Jampton]

Satellite?? It's the UK we're talking about,, more likely to be some Heath Robinson affair made of bailer twine, odd bits of wood and some sticky back plastic nicked from Blue Peter (the TV show, not the locomotive)

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar,
It appears that your Barmouth special did have two crews?
Unless there is some wonderous gadget that works via satellite and cardboard wireless?
The MSTS gives no clue about this.
John B.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

On the Cambrian Coast line you'd probably be travelling at around 50mph tops - certainly that's the line speed limit in the MSTS add-on and that's pretty well researched, so would seem a safe source. There are local limits of 40MPH or lower on occasion as well, though I don't think it's quite as bad as the 25MPH of the southern end of the Heart of Wales line...

Really? I'm surprised at that as much of the Cambrian between Shrewsbury & Machynlleth was upgraded for 90 mph running when the class 158 DMU's were introduced on the line in the 1990's. I gather some bits of the coast have (or will) upgraded to this maxima as 158's are now the standard rolling stock used on all scheduled passenger trains on the Cambrian. Their introduction enabled the journey time to be cut by 20 minutes between Shrewsbury & Machynlleth and the same level of service to be operated with one less unit as compared with the 70mph class 153 and 156's that were previously used. I dont know what speed t he 33's got up to. Officially I think they're now limited to 75mph (their max speed in BR days was only ever 85mph) but it certainly felt like we were achieving those sorts of speeds.

A few years ago a Pathfinder Tour which started from Newtown, Powys and was hauled by Deltic #16 "Gordon Highlander" (sporting Porterbrook Purple!) was clocked at 95 between Welshpool and Shrewsbury. I was on that tour too and it was a good day out (to Carlisle via the S&C)

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit
I bet there were some impressive sound and smoke effects on the bank too - that's the one part of the line they reckoned the freight MUs might have trouble with on timber trains. First one went straight up fully laden and hauling the '37 that had been brought as backup!

Yes, it seemed like we reached the top of Talerdigg in no time at all!

[Anonymous]

On the Cambrian Coast line you'd probably be travelling at around 50mph tops - certainly that's the line speed limit in the MSTS add-on and that's pretty well researched, so would seem a safe source. There are local limits of 40MPH or lower on occasion as well, though I don't think it's quite as bad as the 25MPH of the southern end of the Heart of Wales line...

I bet there were some impressive sound and smoke effects on the bank too - that's the one part of the line they reckoned the freight MUs might have trouble with on timber trains. First one went straight up fully laden and hauling the '37 that had been brought as backup!

[Murphy Siding]

Tulyar15: What kind of speeds are we talking about here? Not the 90mph that Cogload mentions, is it?

[Tulyar15]

Murphy - you're quite right about top tailing. Also strictly speaking a single class 33 would have been able to manage a train of 8 cars (that was there normal limit on the Southern Region.) However not only does having an extra loco provide insurance against breakdown - very important on the Cambrian line when the nearest other loco could be 200 miles away - but also means the train could go faster. We had quite a spirted run as I said. Although we left Birmingham NEw St over an hour late, the deficit had been cut to 40 minutes by Machynlleth. On the return leg both locos earned their keep on the 13 mile stretch from Machynlleth to Talerdigg summit which is a continous climb of 1 in 49 (or just over 2%).

[Hugh Jampton]

You are correct, the leading loco pulls both the train and the trailling loco until the train goes the other way then the situation is reversed.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

David,
With modern stock it is possible to have both loco's powered up and driven in multiple in fact on long heavy trains this is a necessity.
In the case of the Barmouth run using older stock lacking MU connections and a fairly light train, my guess is that only the lead engine would be under power.

I think you were right about the rear loco not running. The reason for top and tailing was not because they could not run round at Barmouth (they can - it still has a passing loop and siding for parking excursion trains out of the way of scheduled trains) but to spread out the weight of the locos. Since Barmouth Bridge was re-opened to loco hauled specials last year all such specials have only been allowed to have one loco on them. This was the first one where two locos were allowed, but topped and tailed. For the record, other passing loops on the Cambrian coast line are Tywyn, Harlech and Porhtmadog. There is still a run round loop for loco hauled trains at the terminus at Pwllheli and also a stabling siding where DMU's can be stabled and re-fuelled.

The subject of push pulling working was touched upon the discussion. One of the 33;s that worked the tour was 33 103. This is one of the batch that were equipped for push pull working and could work in multiple with Southern Region electric units. (When the Bournemouth line was electrified in 1967, in order to continue to provide thru passenger services onward to Weymouth, the push pull 33;s would haul electric units to Weymouth and then pu***hem back - this saved time having to run round. This practice lasted until 1988 when the electrification was extended to Weymouth, It's success resulted in other applications of push pull working in Britain and Ireland).

I take it "top and tailing" means a locomotive on each end of a train? Surely, this train wouldn't require two locomotives to haul it?

[daveklepper]

I don't share the pessimism about Amtrak. There is every possibility that the terror that Sadui Arabia manufactured and exported throught their Wahabee distortion of traditional Islam will come back to effect them, until they join the modern world in spirit and not just in cash. If they did that they would be able to use all available help to stop terror, but the real anti-terrorists aren't going to help them now, especially since they have masterminded Bush's and Balr's attempted defeat in Iraq, after Bush and Blair defeated Saddam Hussein for ( among others) the Saudis' and the Emirates-Kuwait's benefit. So expect gas prices to rise still further, possibly dramatically.

In that case Amtrak will be seen, as it is already seen in fact by many Senators and Congressmen, as a very vital USA national resource. Also there is the nearby comparison with Canada's VIA, which on a per capita, a per citizen, basis, gets a much larger subsidy than Amtrak does and so presents a far better face to tourists visiting from Europe and Japan.

Indeed at a social occasion I met some old friends who are Americans living abroad like me. They just returned from North America. While living in the USA, like many Easterners, they had never seen the Rocky Mountains up close. Only from above from airplanes. The booked a tour. What Rocky Mountains did they see? Of course, the Canadian Rockies. They visited East Coast relatives, flew to the West Coast, then to Vancouver, and then came back east by VIA on an organized tour with stopovers at Jasper, side trip to Lake Louis and then on to Calgary with a side trip to Edmonton (or is it the other way around), and they enjoyed the train rides very much. "The same sleeping cars I rode in as a youngster with my parents going to and from Florida." So the wife said, and she showed her husband how to lower roomette beds without the help of the attendant!

Some Senators and Congressmen realize that good long distance rail service is just a necesary part of a civilized country. The rising gas prices will do the rest.

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar,
Do's this mean that there was a crew on each of the Barmouth loco's?
Murphy,
There was a famous double act (comedy) on Briti***V (Morecambe & Wise) Eric Morecambe (to get past the censor) always expleted the footy teams name when annoyed.
Simon,
How sad that the efforts of Gunne and others are being blighted by blind political dogma, as happened over here to many industries (coal, steel, textiles, engineering,etc.) during the Thatcher years.
Hopefully we are over most of that, although my confidence in the current regime is not very high
John B.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

David,
With modern stock it is possible to have both loco's powered up and driven in multiple in fact on long heavy trains this is a necessity.
In the case of the Barmouth run using older stock lacking MU connections and a fairly light train, my guess is that only the lead engine would be under power.

I think you were right about the rear loco not running. The reason for top and tailing was not because they could not run round at Barmouth (they can - it still has a passing loop and siding for parking excursion trains out of the way of scheduled trains) but to spread out the weight of the locos. Since Barmouth Bridge was re-opened to loco hauled specials last year all such specials have only been allowed to have one loco on them. This was the first one where two locos were allowed, but topped and tailed. For the record, other passing loops on the Cambrian coast line are Tywyn, Harlech and Porhtmadog. There is still a run round loop for loco hauled trains at the terminus at Pwllheli and also a stabling siding where DMU's can be stabled and re-fuelled.

The subject of push pulling working was touched upon the discussion. One of the 33;s that worked the tour was 33 103. This is one of the batch that were equipped for push pull working and could work in multiple with Southern Region electric units. (When the Bournemouth line was electrified in 1967, in order to continue to provide thru passenger services onward to Weymouth, the push pull 33;s would haul electric units to Weymouth and then pu***hem back - this saved time having to run round. This practice lasted until 1988 when the electrification was extended to Weymouth, It's success resulted in other applications of push pull working in Britain and Ireland).

[Anonymous]

Murphy - yes it is.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nanaimo73

Thanks for the answers.

I don't see anything wrong with****nal being blanked out.
[(-D]

Oh dear! Is it pronounced the same way it's spelled?[:0]

[Simon Reed]

Unwittingly I've probably thrown lots of verbal abuse at poor old Cogload in the the past!

My parting gesture - we've got the wrong Steve. Should have been Coppell, not McLaren.

[Simon Reed]

Townsend - this has been dealt with before on the many pro and anti Amtrak posts on this forum.

It's not a question of incentive, it's a question of market. Whilst I dearly love Amtrak, your 200-400 mile bracket (which is undoubtedly rail territory anywhere else in the world) simply does'nt work in the US other than on the NEC, the Pacific Coast and possibly Milwaukee - Chicago.

Indianapolis - Chicago should, on paper, be an ideal test. It's about 100 miles and equates in economic and social terms to Birmingham - London. There's one daily train and it takes 3 hours.

I'm not about to start finding out how many flights there are a day, or how many bus journeys, but I'm fairly confident that there'll be more, with better times.

I began to find European railways boring when the Belgians went DMU in 2000, and work and domesticity means that I have to limit my visits to preservation in the UK but a six month F40 bash in 1999 left me with an enormous love for American railroads.

Sadly American railroads don't love me - or their small but loyal ridership. Don't expect anything other than retraction over the next few years.

I think that this post has become quite exclusive to a handful of visitors since it was started by Murphysiding, so let me speak my mind amongst friends. Amtrak is dead. George War Bush has killed it. It's only hope - and this won't happen - is that it's offered to a European open access operator.

Sorry - partially for the rant but Lynne is out and I've broken into the Chablis - but also for the truth.

[Anonymous]

After watching Kettering Town for the best part of 10 yrs I have become disillusioned with the game of association football. I am considering holidaying on Mars this year. :-(

[Simon Reed]

I have several friends who are Spurs fans and would have been delighted if they'd been blanked out today! As an impartial observer (i.e. Barrow AFC supporter) I was'nt too thrilled myself - I'd far rather Spurs had made Europe.

Back to the topic in hand - one of the things that the old BR football specials became notable for in the '80's was older vacuum braked stock - because it did'nt matter if the "fans" kicked lumps out of it.

That meant that the older - and rarer - vacuum braked locomotives would come out on a Saturday to work them, much to the delight of the enthusiast community.

Surprisingly, in my experience, football boys and railfans tended to cohabit quite peacefully on these trains.

I have mixed emotions recalling 47314 - with no facilities for heating the train whatsoever - out of Manchester Victoria in 1986. We managed to get an SSO at Huddersfield and stepped out into 6 inches of snow, but the train was going to Newcastle - another 2 hours in very sub zero conditions.

[Anonymous]

There are still some football specials run. West Coast Railways run a fair few and railway staff know what your on about when you say Footex. (other terms for specials are Crankex and Steamex.) But most football fans use thier own cars or coach tours.

Thanks for the info on passenger service. i get the impression that there is not that much incentive for Amtrack to be entreprenurial and go after buisness that look atractive. Such as developing servive between cities that are 200 to 400 miles apart which in Britain would generaly have a good level of service and can be money making. After all before privatisation the Inter City sector of BR turned a profit and most of the Inter City franchises pay premiums to the government. Virgin West Coast and Cross Country being the exeptions.

[nanaimo73]

Thanks for the answers.

I don't see anything wrong with****nal being blanked out.
[(-D]

[Simon Reed]

Ooops - the auto-censor has been overzealous! I mean the team that played at Highbury until today and will be playing at Ashburton Grove, right next to the East Coast Main Line, next season.

I think we had a similar problem a while ago on here with that North Lincolnshire steel manufacturing town beginning with S....

[Simon Reed]

Townsend - my understanding is that the host roads are required to despatch Amtrak over their "patch", presumably to a pre-agreed service level. I think we all know from experience or from our railroad reading that this is done with varying degrees of willingness and professionalism.

The concensus seems to be that CSX are pretty appalling at all levels of their dealings with Amtrak; the irony of this is that CSX rely on Amtrak despatching on the NEC.

I don't know how you'd go about getting an extra path. My guess would be that the host road would put their own requirements, capacity and projected growth first. You'd probably not stand a chance of getting an extra train on the Sunset route, certainly not between Tucson and El Paso, because it's already running at or near capacity.

On a less heavily used route I'm guessing that the host road would have no objection.

State intervention is also a factor; California offered BNSF a tax relief incentive when the frequency of the Capitals/San Jouaquins was increased.

Nanaimo73 - football specials in the UK are far and few between. There are various reasons for this including:-

* Scarcity of rolling stock
* The complexity of organising non-scheduled passenger traffic and the inherent costs of this
* The historical propensity of football fans to sma***heir trains up
* The relative inflexibility of trains as opposed to buses or private cars

It's also worth re-emphasising the geography at this point. The two premiership teams next season furthest away from each other are Portsmouth and Newcastle - about 400 miles. Wigan, Bolton, Blackburn, Liverpool, Everton and the two Manchesters are all within a 25 mile radius. Charlton,****nal, Tottenham Hotspur, West Ham, Chelsea and Fulham are within 10 miles of each other.

[Anonymous]

BR60103 - I dont go ont that site you are referring to.

Nanaimo - the players will be very unlikely to use the trains, but the supporters do. Occasionally accompanied by Mr Plods finest. This summer is going to be hell.

[Murphy Siding]

John: I think Amtrak only has dispatchers in the NE Corridor, because Amtrak owns that track. In the rest of the country I think the host railroads dipatch.

[John Bakeer]

Murphy, Townsend,
I do know, from reading Trains for many years that, Amtrack has its own despatchers ie. NE Corridor, as do many other passenger lines, LIRR for instance is the reverse, I also understand that Amtrack despatchers are posted in the hoste railroads offices, but how wide this practice is? I am not sure.
John B.

[nanaimo73]

Do many of the Football Teams in the UK use rail to travel to and from matches ?
Would teams like Reading and Sheffield make more or less use of rail travel next season following promotion ?

[Murphy Siding]

Townsend: Someone will come along and correct me here. My understanding is that the American railroads are *required* to allow Amtrak over their lines, as part of the agreement that formed Amtrak. There is, I'm sure, a set formula for what Amtrak pays the host rairoad. The railroads then are in control of dispatching all the trains on their lines. Because the freight railroads do not seem to like hosting Amtrack trains, they tend to put them into sidings a lot, and cause havoc with Amtrak's schedules. To say it's not a good system is a drastic understatement.

[Anonymous]

Sort of going to subvert the tread now. I have just got the June issue of Trains and read an interesting article on the Metroliner brand. What i want to know is about Amtrack service outside the NE Coridor. If Amtrack want to add services say Los Angeles to San Diego, do Amtrack bid for paths from BNSF like a TOC does from Network Rail in Britain, and BNSF dispaches trains around Amtracks services, or is thier a different system.

[John Bakeer]

Oooops!
Sneezed and doubled clicked the mouse--AGAIN!
John B.

[John Bakeer]

David,
With modern stock it is possible to have both loco's powered up and driven in multiple in fact on long heavy trains this is a necessity.
In the case of the Barmouth run using older stock lacking MU connections and a fairly light train, my guess is that only the lead engine would be under power.
Must check out my MSTS as there is a run from Blackpool to Southport with a pair of 37s top and tail.
Last week my dear lady and I rode the entire Blackpool tramway (about 20 miles) with driver and 2 conductors, the rapport between these men and the passengers was a joy to see and hear.
John B.

[John Bakeer]

David,
With modern stock it is possible to have both loco's powered up and driven in multiple in fact on long heavy trains this is a necessity.
In the case of the Barmouth run using older stock lacking MU connections and a fairly light train, my guess is that only the lead engine would be under power.
Must check out my MSTS as there is a run from Blackpool to Southport with a pair of 37s top and tail.
Last week my dear lady and I rode the entire Blackpool tramway (about 20 miles) with driver and 2 conductors, the rapport between these men and the passengers was a joy to see and hear.
John B.