British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I must admit I'd not heard about this Camelback loco working in Britain. Mind you, the Lancashire & Yorkshire did have a more genrous loading gauge than most lines in Britain so it could have happened.

After WW1, the Great Central Railway (which built its main lines to the European loading gauge) considered buying some ex-US Army 2-10-2's.

One of the earliest examples of American built locos working in Britain were the Norris 4-2-0's used by the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway in the early 1840's. I think its reason for buying them were that they were the most powerful locos available at the time and the B & G needed them for the Lickey Incline - the steepest section of main line in Britain (2.7% for 2 miles).

Funny coincidence-my first name is Norris[:)]

[Tulyar15]

The real class 80 was in fact the former MetroVick A1A - A1A Gas Turbine loco #18100 ordered by the GWR and delivered in 1952. At the time its 3,500hp made it the most powerful loco running in Britain. But it was less reliable than the Swiss built gas turbine and could not run on diesel fuel; it had to be run on aircraft fuel hence its nickname "Kerosene Castle". IT was rebuilt as an AC electric loco and renumbered E2001. It was retired in 1968, having become the sole member of Cl 80. On the London Midland Region it became nicknamed "Black Bessie" because it retained its black livery, in contrast to the sky blue colour of the new AC electric locos. It was dumped in a siding at Rugby for some years before finally going to the breakers.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Nice one Hugh!

Long before Class 92's worked on charter trains one of my friends modelled one, posed it on his layout on passenger stock and sent the photo to Pathfinder Tours.

They touched up the photo and printed it in a tour brochure as an April Fool.

Several people subsequently claimed to have been on the train!

OK . You got me there![:I] I hope the people I tricked on April Fools Day, with the BNSF name change thread had a good laugh at my expense.[:p]

[Simon Reed]

Nice one Hugh!

Long before Class 92's worked on charter trains one of my friends modelled one, posed it on his layout on passenger stock and sent the photo to Pathfinder Tours.

They touched up the photo and printed it in a tour brochure as an April Fool.

Several people subsequently claimed to have been on the train!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

Camelbacks were big,, but so it this Class 80........
(and it's a nice conspiracy and all)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.dean2/country/britain/br_80.htm

I *have* to ask: Is that for real, or a very good parody?

[Hugh Jampton]

Camelbacks were big,, but so it this Class 80........
(and it's a nice conspiracy and all)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/mark.dean2/country/britain/br_80.htm

[Tulyar15]

I must admit I'd not heard about this Camelback loco working in Britain. Mind you, the Lancashire & Yorkshire did have a more genrous loading gauge than most lines in Britain so it could have happened.

After WW1, the Great Central Railway (which built its main lines to the European loading gauge) considered buying some ex-US Army 2-10-2's.

One of the earliest examples of American built locos working in Britain were the Norris 4-2-0's used by the Birmingham & Gloucester Railway in the early 1840's. I think its reason for buying them were that they were the most powerful locos available at the time and the B & G needed them for the Lickey Incline - the steepest section of main line in Britain (2.7% for 2 miles).

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

The US Camelback/Mother Hubbard type was imported and tried by (among others) the Lancashire and Yorkshire, but clearance problems lead to their early demise.
On some, communication between driver and fireman was via a speaking tube a.k.a.
ships (see Loco Profiles No9). Maybe this was utilised on the Leaders?
John B.

Just looking at a picture of a US Camelback/Mother Hubbard type should have been enough evidense to believe there would be clearance problems in Britain.[;)] From the photos, they look 20 feet tall![:0]

[John Bakeer]

The US Camelback/Mother Hubbard type was imported and tried by (among others) the Lancashire and Yorkshire, but clearance problems lead to their early demise.
On some, communication between driver and fireman was via a speaking tube a.k.a.
ships (see Loco Profiles No9). Maybe this was utilised on the Leaders?
John B.

[Tulyar15]

As far as I know, "The Great Marquess" is currently being overhauled by the Severn Valley Railway, where it is based.

[John Bakeer]

M636C,
Of course it was The Great Marques! What was I thinking of?
John B.

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103

Murphy: The LNER had a tradition of naming locomotives after horses. Doncaster, where they had a major works, also has a major race course. One of the magazines had an article tracing the horse names on the A3s (Flying Scotsman et al.) Of course, some of them weren't named after horses, but directors or other people.
Sticking with the LNER, the A4 class had several subsets of names. The first 4 were Silver This and That for the Silver Jubilee. Then they were named after birds; some renamed for countries and directors and other blokes.
The B1 4-6-0 were named after antelope type beasts, some with different names for the same beast. Not sure about the B2 and B17 - lot of football teams and??
Two classes of 4-4-0 named after Directors (favourites are Baillie MacWheeble and Lucky Mucklebackit) but a few battles crept in.
The Scott class named after characters in Sir Walter Scott.
Glens, Shires, Hunts (fox hunting teams) and Lochs.
Gresley's V4 2-6-2, the first was called Bantam ****, some called the other Bantam Hen. [:D]
There were a number of classes that I couldn't find a theme for.

Great Western built one Pacific, which they later turned into a 4-6-0, called The Great Bear. You can have a lot of fun by running themes from that name. [8D]

The GWR Pacific No 111 "the Great Bear" was named after a constellation of stars, based on the fact that the preceding four cylinder 4-6-0s were named after stars. Other names in this series might be "The Big Dipper" "the Southern Cross" or the constellations used as astrological symbols, "Leo", "Virgo" and so on.

The LNER 2-6-0 name being sought is "The Great Marquess" which was originally carried by a Gresley K4.

M636C

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

I believe there are a number of ghost paths on the WCML for Eurostars from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston. The stock is stored rusting in a field somewhere down south.

GNER were using 3 or 4 of the North of London (NoL) Eurostar sets until last year, when Eurostar took them back. These 7 sets sets differ from the standard 30 Eurostar sets in that they only have 14 pasenger cars instead of the usual 18.

It was suggested that the NoL sets could be used on the domestic (ie Kent Coast) Channel Tunnel Rail Link services but instead they're buing new Japanese units for these services. What the NoL sets are being used for I dont know. Perhaps if they were to put them on the Brussels services they'd have enough sets to increase the Paris service to half hourly frequency,

[daveklepper]

Don't forget the Great Western (continued into BR days) 4-6-0 Manors and Castles!

[Hugh Jampton]

There will always be unused paths on a railway, the UIC reccommend25% unused paths spread eveny throuout the day. This is to reduce the knock on effect of a delayed train. Railtrack did not initially understand this and many lines were run with more than 90% of paths used. Of course if one train was delayed it threw the whole network into chaos, and it colud take hours to recover. This was bad for the company that caused the initial delay as they'd have to pay out for delay minutes to other trains.

[John Bakeer]

Thanks Malc,
I must have been having a'senior moment', you are quite correct. I was looking at a 1964 ABC. most steamers had gone by then.
I'm closer to the Ratty (Stockport Greater Manchester), but my endurance is not up to the journey.
Anyone know about the spooks on the WCML?
John B.

[malcolmyoung]

Two small three cylinder class V4 2-6-2s were built in 1941, only the first one was officially named "Bantam ****", the other one was never named but was always known unofficially as "Bantam Hen". Sir Nigel Gresley died soon after these two locos were built and his successor, Edward Thompson did not like three cylinder engines and no more were built.

Malc.

[malcolmyoung]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer
The LNER 2-6-2 is a V2 only one of which was named, 60847 'St. Peter's School York A.D.627' There is one in preservation which carries the name 'Green Goddess', or is it a K1 2-6-0?
John B.

Seven L.N.E.R. class V2 2-6-2s were named from new, they were:-
60800... "Green Arrow"
60809... "The Snapper, The East Yorkshire Regiment, The Duke of York's Own"
60835..."The Green Howard, Alexandra, Princess of Wales' Own Yorkshire Regiment"
60847..."St. Peter's School, York, A.D. 627"
60860..."Durham School"
60872..."King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry"
60873..."Coldstreamer"
Another V2 60964 was named "The Durham Light Infantry" in 1958.

60800... "Green Arrow" is preserved in the National Collection at York Railway Museum and is still used occasionally.

The engine numbers quoted above are the post 1948 British Railways numbers and not the original L.N.E.R. numbers.

Some of the above names must rank as amongst the longest ever given to locomotives.

The only locomotive that I know of named "Green Goddess" is a 15" gauge pacific on the Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway in Kent. (Well worth a visit).

Malc.

[John Bakeer]

I believe there are a number of ghost paths on the WCML for Eurostars from Manchester Piccadilly to Euston. The stock is stored rusting in a field somewhere down south.
The LNER 2-6-2 is a V2 only one of which was named, 60847 'St. Peter's School York A.D.627' There is one in preservation which carries the name 'Green Goddess', or is it a K1 2-6-0?
John B.

[Anonymous]

If an opperater bids for a path over a route, it has to be conflict free with what is already there. The problem with the S&C and WCML is that they are pretty full. Also we somtimes do a bit of a spring clean and take out unused paths. So if Jarvis bid for a path and then did not use they would probably lose it.

[BR60103]

I can't decide if The Great Bear show continue on to include The Great Gatsby and The Graet Gonzo, or Polar Bear, Grizzly Bear and Teddy Bear.

Didn't someone make a few silly decisions with the Warship diesels? They insisted on having the names in alphabetical order with the numbers, and them tagged an extra half dozen on after Zambesi?

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103
[Not sure about the B2 and B17 - lot of football teams and??

Great Western built one Pacific, which they later turned into a 4-6-0, called The Great Bear. You can have a lot of fun by running themes from that name. [8D]

The Other batch of B17/B2 's were named after country house in E. Anglia, including "Sandringham" the doyen of the class which was named after the Royal Palace of that name. This batch was originally allocated to the former Great Eastern Railway lines out of London Liverpool St while the Football batch were on the Great Central line out of London Marylebone. After a few years the two batches got mixed round willy nilly.

At the time when the Great Western's only Pacific "The Great Bear" was built, the GWR's top express locos were the Star 4-6-0's. So it was though the Great Bear would be the first of a "Constellation" class. But it was not to be and in due course the Great Bear was rebuilt as a "Castle" class 4-6-0 and re-named "Viscount Churchill" after a GWR director (dont know if he was any relation to Winston but I wouldn't be surprised).

[Murphy Siding]

Isn't this the same country that named a class of W W I I Corvettes, or Destroyer escorts after flowers?[;)]

On a side note: a favorite place to take my sons hiking is The Great Bear Ski Hill. Because of the low-profile terrain here, most people refer to it as "The Fat Bear Ski Hump"[:)]

[BR60103]

Murphy: The LNER had a tradition of naming locomotives after horses. Doncaster, where they had a major works, also has a major race course. One of the magazines had an article tracing the horse names on the A3s (Flying Scotsman et al.) Of course, some of them weren't named after horses, but directors or other people.
Sticking with the LNER, the A4 class had several subsets of names. The first 4 were Silver This and That for the Silver Jubilee. Then they were named after birds; some renamed for countries and directors and other blokes.
The B1 4-6-0 were named after antelope type beasts, some with different names for the same beast. Not sure about the B2 and B17 - lot of football teams and??
Two classes of 4-4-0 named after Directors (favourites are Baillie MacWheeble and Lucky Mucklebackit) but a few battles crept in.
The Scott class named after characters in Sir Walter Scott.
Glens, Shires, Hunts (fox hunting teams) and Lochs.
Gresley's V4 2-6-2, the first was called Bantam ****, some called the other Bantam Hen. [:D]
There were a number of classes that I couldn't find a theme for.

Great Western built one Pacific, which they later turned into a 4-6-0, called The Great Bear. You can have a lot of fun by running themes from that name. [8D]

[Tulyar15]

Murphy Siding - what I think Simon means is that Jarvis may just be trying to buy up paths on the West Coast Main Line so as to stop anyone-else using those paths. From what a friend in the industry tells me though, I dont think they'll succeed. Sometime ago Freightliner demanded 30 paths a day between Southampton and Birmingham but they did not get them - there just weren't that many paths available.

On the subject of Open Access, I started out as a sceptic but having seen some the positive things the OA operators have done here, I'm a bit more in favour than I was. Sometime ago, Connex, which operated the South Central division of the former Southern Region wanted to run a thru service from Brighton to Birmingham, using the West London line via Kensington Olympia, which among other things links the London Victoria - Brighton main line with the West Coast Main Line (London Euston - NW England/N Wales/Scotland) at Willesden Junction. But the Train Operators that used the WCML ganged up on it and it was only able to run a train every 2 hours as far north as Rugby. Even these have now been cut back to Watford Junction. So what could have been a useful cross London service has been cut back due to the bloody mindedness of th exisiting operators.

Still at least the Rail Regulator has stood up to GNER and granted Grand Central some paths on the East Coast Main Line so that GC can start its Sunderland - London King's Cross service.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Going back to the entry of Jarvis into the open access market....

Has anyone - maybe specifically Townsend or Cogload - heard anything "sinister" about this move, because I just have!

The primary idea behind it, so I'm told by a good source, is to establish a market for "bidding" for paths on the S&C and WCML, thereby taking open access to a very different level.

Simon: I'm not quite understanding what you're saying here. Can you elaborate please?

[Simon Reed]

Going back to the entry of Jarvis into the open access market....

Has anyone - maybe specifically Townsend or Cogload - heard anything "sinister" about this move, because I just have!

The primary idea behind it, so I'm told by a good source, is to establish a market for "bidding" for paths on the S&C and WCML, thereby taking open access to a very different level.

[zardoz]

Thanks, guys.

[daveklepper]

Many locomotives and mu cars with the steering wheel-like controller use it both for power and brake, clockwise from off to power and counterclockwise to brake.

[John Bakeer]

Hi Murphy,
It is often said of the US/UK relationship that we are "two nations devided by a common language".
John B.