British Railway Operations

[John Bakeer]

Here in Greater Manchester the trams are all one man with tickets obtained from machines at unstaffed halts (with high and low level platforms), Through tickets are issued at main stations to the various zones (the whole system is a series of zones).
The heavy rapid transit is a mixture of main line and branch line running with lighter local services using EMU's and DMU's having two man/women crews. Tickets are issued at staffed stations and on the train. The intercity network is interlaced with this system and interavailability of tickets on selected services.
Liverpool, London and Glasgow have the addition of an underground network.
The 142 or Pacer is a Leyland 36ft bus body mounted on a long wheelbase wagon chassis, you have to travel on one to really appreciate the true horror, especially on down graded track..
I am a regular user of the system, as the South Manchester highway system is often grid locked. The trouble is that the railroads are in chaos at weekends due to work on the WCML which both systems share to a large measure.
John B.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Good. I gather that the Stadler equipment on the River Line, diesel electric and not diesel mechanical, does get rave reviews regarding riding quality, quiet, and performance. They run with one man, an operator, just like the classic PCC's and most USA and Canadian modern light rail, but I understand that 2-man crews are normal on modern British light rail and on certain heavy bus lines as well! On my first visit to Great Britain, in 1962, nearly all buses were 2-man. Or so it seemed.

As far as I can recall it's really only Sheffield that has 2 person crews. Manchester, Newcastle, Croydon and Wolverhampton all have one man crews, not sure about Nottingham. It's all ticket machines at the stops and on the trams.

There are also very few 2 man buses in operation, I think a few in London, otherwise it's all pay the driver or but a ticket from a machine at the stop.

[daveklepper]

Good. I gather that the Stadler equipment on the River Line, diesel electric and not diesel mechanical, does get rave reviews regarding riding quality, quiet, and performance. They run with one man, an operator, just like the classic PCC's and most USA and Canadian modern light rail, but I understand that 2-man crews are normal on modern British light rail and on certain heavy bus lines as well! On my first visit to Great Britain, in 1962, nearly all buses were 2-man. Or so it seemed.

[Simon Reed]

I think the British Rail Board in the '80's made a half hearted step towards operating in certain areas on essentially light rail principles; it could be argued that with the introduction of the "Paytrain" concept in the early '70's the idea was conceived.

Firstly - virtually all local trains in both rural and urban areas run with a two man crew - driver and conductor guard. This is'nt a conductor in the US sense, but a conductor as in bus conductor; he issues tickets. This idea was established in the paytrain era as a costcutting method. Now, only principal stations serving larger areas of population are manned.

Secondly, in the '80's the concept of the railbus was "refined" to it's ultimate, in the "Pacer" type units. These have been discussed on here before, but they're basically a lightweight two car, four axled unit designed in conjunction with bus manufacturers, with a view to usage on lightly used routes.

The perceived reduction in track forces of a single axle at each end (as opposed to the conventionial double axled truck), coupled with a general retrenchment of freight in that era meant that the routes to which they were allocated could be less intensively maintained.

Whilst their ambience and ride qualities are nothing to write home about they have proved surprisingly robust. More importantly, they have made some marginal (in revenue terms) routes more economically viable. I'd point to Huddersfield-Penistone-Barnsley and Middlesbrough-Whitby as examples.

The NJT example is still in it's infancy so I don't think we can draw comparisons there but the model is essentially the same as the one extensively used in rural West Germany. Basically, Dave, it's already been done here. It's not light rail per se but NJT is'nt either - it's a hybrid from which we can learn, consolidate and progress.

[John Bakeer]

See the abysmal 142 for a try at converting to light rail. They've all tried it from steam rail motors in pre-grouping days to the present, the current generation of managers are just as incapable of learning from others mistakes as was my fathers generation on the Lancashire and Yorkshire.
Tramways are totally different animals to heavy transit railways.
John B.

[John Bakeer]

As I understand it, the Leader was to fill the slot alocated to the express tank locomotives with the additional capacity to carry out main line tasks, shunting was never a consideration.
2C1 refered to 2 leading undriven axles with C meaning driven axle(s) and 1trailing undriven axle, I think it was more a case of adopting deisel and electric parlance in order to maintain a modern image.
John B.

[daveklepper]

So far all conversions to light rail in Great Britain have been urban railways, Manchester, Sheffield, Newcastle (midway between heavy and light, in my opinion), Croydon (South London), etc. What about cost-reduction by converting rural branch lines to light rail operation to reduce wear on track (lighter equipment) same employment giving more frequency service to encourage greater ridership by a limit to two staff people on each train, driver and conductor, on-board fare checking with halts and stations largely unmanned and tickets sold from machines, etc, with diesel light-railcars from Stadler or simply rebuilding the existing diesel railcars for this type of operatoin (no separation from the operating cab to the passenger compartment or use of glass, etc.)? Could this effect cost reduction and improve service on existing secondary lines? The model would the New Jersey's Trenton - Camden River Line.

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

The SR system/ OVSB of wheel arrangement would be Co Co?
John B.

No, C-C. Co refers to three independently driven axles. The Leader had coupling chains and one set of cylinders per bogie, so it was a C-C. Bullied was to number it CC1, although he already had an electric loco with the same number, which became BR 20001.

If 36001 had a conventional boiler placed centrally on the frame and used a conventional two cylinder engine per bogie, like a scaled down Q1, it would have probably had a long life. A full conventional firebox would have increased the theoretical maintenance costs but improved the steaming and reduced the cab temperature.

M636C

[John Bakeer]

The SR system/ OVSB of wheel arrangement would be Co Co?
John B.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

Just come across this and remembered the discussion of "Leader" here - http://www.modelfair.com/acatalog/Golden_Arrow.html is a OO scale model of the loco, one of a limited edition of 200 apparently. Might be of interest!

Interesting that they described it as a 0-6-6-0 tank locomotive.[:p]

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

We're GMT period, so we're coming to you from 6 hours in the future...

Then some of you cats keep some weird hours[;)]

Britain goes on European Summertime on Sunday 26 April increasing the time difference to North American time zones by one hour, North America catches up by going on Daylight Saving Time on Sunday 2 April.

[:)]

[Anonymous]

Just come across this and remembered the discussion of "Leader" here - http://www.modelfair.com/acatalog/Golden_Arrow.html is a OO scale model of the loco, one of a limited edition of 200 apparently. Might be of interest!

[Simon Reed]

Just a reminder to all UK readers that the next working party on the ALCo S1 is next Saturday (1st).

We'll be cataloging spares so it's an "all hands on deck" day.

[John Bakeer]

No we're not. We are six hours behind. Aren't we?
Well, we're usually behind every one else at most things!
John B.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

We're GMT period, so we're coming to you from 6 hours in the future...

Then some of you cats keep some weird hours[;)]

[Hugh Jampton]

We're GMT period, so we're coming to you from 6 hours in the future...

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

As mentioned above, Up and Down could be easily defined on routes radiating from a Railway Compnay's HQ, but problems might innocently arise on orbital routes.
Martin

I guess a smart alek could point out that the orbital routes might read "over", no matter which way the train was headed?[:o)] Thanks for the explanations. The "up" and "down" designations, I'm sure, are relative to the way the railroads formed, way back then.

A question: Because of the time difference, a fair amount of the chatting on this thread takes on the feel of a long-distance chess game. What time is it in Britain? My screen shows that my time zone is GMT-6 hours. Thanks

[mhurley87f]

Tulyar15,

Many thanks for the information, much appreciated.

Talking of Up and Down in Railway terms, of course, the Great Western Railway always placed its telegraph/communications cables and posts on the side deemed to be the Up side to help train staff remember on which line they were should they need to make contact with signal boxes, e.g. to arrange assisting engines. IIRC this practice got a mention in one of the Sherlock Holmes stories.

As mentioned above, Up and Down could be easily defined on routes radiating from a Railway Compnay's HQ, but problems might innocently arise on orbital routes.

Martin

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Tylyar15: Enjoyed the links with some interesting photography. The lines remind me of Thomas the Tank Engine programs. I don't understand some of the captions: down station platform/up platform/up goods starter/down homes/ etc. Could you give me a thumbnail explanation of what it's all about? Thanks

In the S. Wales valleys, "up" tends to mean up into the hills.

As BR60103 has pointed out, "up" generally means towards London. What they do on cross country lines I'm not sure. On the Brsitol - Birmingham line I know "up" is towards Birmingham (ie going north) and I gather on the Somerset & Dorset line "up" was towards Bath (ie north bound).

[BR60103]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I don't understand some of the captions: down station platform/up platform/up goods starter/down homes/ etc. Could you give me a thumbnail explanation of what it's all about? Thanks

The terms "up" and "down" refer to the two directions the line runs. UP is towards the most important city on the railroad. Usually London, but not always. So the up platform will be the platform on the track that goes to London.
When there are more than 2 tracks, the are distinguished by direction and function. There may be fast and slow, or a goods (freight) line.
The other references are to signals. A signal with a red arm is a "home" signal, a yellow arm is a "distant" signal. The home signal controls the section of track immediately beyond it. A distant signal is located a stopping distance before the home signal. A station with pointwork will have a series of home signals at the appropriate places. There is frequently a signal at the end of the platform and this is the starter.
Also, they use signals for each route that is coming up; a facing point will have 2 signals.

[Murphy Siding]

Tylyar15: Enjoyed the links with some interesting photography. The lines remind me of Thomas the Tank Engine programs. I don't understand some of the captions: down station platform/up platform/up goods starter/down homes/ etc. Could you give me a thumbnail explanation of what it's all about? Thanks

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Talking of Kings, my sources tell me that a Ferro-Equus Rex is expected to be on the loose down in our corner of the world (Swansea - Carmarthen) next Saturday.

Which Rex is it to be, and where will the train be coming from and going to?

Martin

I should think it will be #6024 KE1 as I dont think #6023 KE2 is ready yet. Duke of Gloucester is coming your way on Monday, 1st May (May Day bank holiday)

Talking of S. Wales my brother Adrian and I popped over there a few Saturdays ago and saw a couple of coal trains within an hour at Aberthaw, one of them worked by a class 60. My brother has put some photos of the GW signals which survive at Aberthaw and Tondu (pronounced T-on-dee) on his website at:-

http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Aberthaw/index.htm

http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Tondu/index.htm

[BR60103]

Murph: the extreme haste was by the British Railways board, egged on by the government of the day. If you do the math, you see that some locos ran for less than 8 years. The other aspect is that Diesels were ordered by the score from inexperienced builders without adequate testing. Some of the early classes didn't last much longer than some of the steamers.

[Simon Reed]

There were always allegations of a hidden agenda to the re-appearance of KGV on the main line.

Bulmers had traditionally shipped their products by rail but were giving serious consideration in 1971 to a switch to road distribution.

Peter Prior and another board member at Bulmers, Godfrey Barton, were steam enthusiasts and dangled a major carrot over BR's head...

The rest is history.

To clarify a post on the last page - only a handful of the preserved railways in this country have the facilities to turn an engine, so steam runs tender first in one direction as a matter of course.

As the preserved railways run under Light Railway Orders, restricting speed to 25MPH, this is'nt particularly problematic although I can tell you from experience that tender first on an ex LMS 4F, at 20 on a relatively secluded line (KWVR) in middling December weather is'nt much fun!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BR60103

Mr Siding:
British Railways took an extreme dislike to steam locomotives in the 60s. There was an extreme haste to get rid of anything that might remind the public of locmotives that actually worked. The last steam locos were built in 1959 and retired by 1967.

Extreme haste by whom? Or why? I guess I just don't quite understand.

[mhurley87f]

Talking of Kings, my sources tell me that a Ferro-Equus Rex is expected to be on the loose down in our corner of the world (Swansea - Carmarthen) next Saturday.

Which Rex is it to be, and where will the train be coming from and going to?

Martin

[Tulyar15]

In 1971 the then Chairman of Bulmers Cider, Peter Prior persuaded the then British Rail chairman to allow GWR 4-6-0 "King George V" to haul a special train promoting Bulmers products. Bulmers had just sponsored the restoration of the loco to main line running condition and they thought it would be an ideal way to promote their products. British Rail eventually agreed and the special train went without a hitch. So BR relented on their steam ban and started allowing preserved steam locos on the main line again.

30 Years on and King George V is now in a museum and Bulmers no longer support preservation, but steam still lives on our main lines. Sister loco 6024 "King Edward I" is about to be joined by 6023 "King Edward II" so for the first time in preservation we'll have to Kings on the main line.

[Anonymous]

The funny part is, the attempts to make them unrestorable failed miserably. 6023 (a GWR King class 4-6-0) had the rear drivers cut but has had a new set made. According to this website http://6024.com/ it was a King class that broke the BR steam ban - King George V (6000) ran on the main line in 1971.

[BR60103]

Mr Siding:
British Railways took an extreme dislike to steam locomotives in the 60s. There was an extreme haste to get rid of anything that might remind the public of locmotives that actually worked. The last steam locos were built in 1959 and retired by 1967.
Privately owned steamers were not permitted on BR track -- except for Flying Scotsman which had been purchased with a long term running permit. Many locos were sent to the scrap dealers with explicit instructions that they were to be made unrestorable -- usually a cutting torch through the spokes on the drivers.
I don't recall what made them finally come round.

[Murphy Siding]

A book I found today-Steam Railways of the World, mentions a *steam ban* in Great Britain from late 1967 to 1971. What was that all about? Thanks