British Railway Operations

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Something came up on another thread that made me wonder....as it always does. British steam locomotives were built with inside cylinders because of -why?

Not all British steam locos had inside cylinders - Rocket and Locomotion and most early had outside cylinders. What they found early on was that by positioning the cylinders inside it reduced sideways vibrations. Of course as cylinder (and loco's!) got larger it became necessary to put the cylinders outside.

Some pre-1923 railways in Britain favoured inside cylinder locos on lines where clearances were restricted. Examples included the South Eastern & Chatham (which had the notorious Hastings line with its narrow tunnels - this line needed special narrow stock until it was converted to standard British loading gauge in the 1980's), the Great Eastern and the Furness. This last line built some large (by British standards) 4-6-4 tank engines with inside cylinders.

[Hugh Jampton]

So that 916.. is that an in steam total is it?

Thay never all had inside cylinders, I'm sure most steam running in the UK have the cylinders outside the frame. Obviously in a 3 cylinder loco the 3rd cylinder is between the frames.
A lot of UK locos used the Stephenson valve gear which have the motion between the frames. This is different to the Walschaeartes(?) gear which is comon in the states and on later UK locos where the motion is outside the frames. (there are other types of motion)

Look at an original Bullied Pacific, it's got connecting rods between the drivers and a connecting rod from the mid driver to the outside cylinder. Although these have Bullied's own chain driven affair). Compare that with something like a Class4 tank engine which has that Belgian guy's motion.

it's pronounced bullyed round our end, like whay the bully did

[Murphy Siding]

Something came up on another thread that made me wonder....as it always does. British steam locomotives were built with inside cylinders because of -why? Was it just tradition, that the first one was built that way, and everybody followed? Were all the standard gauge locos built that way? Surely, the narrow gauge, especially the 15" mentioned above were outside cylinders. Thanks

[daveklepper]

Are some of these 15" gauge locomotives actually model locomotives, models of standard gauge? Or would that be a separate listing?

[Simon Reed]

Sorry it took a while but....

916 preserved narrow gauge steam loco's - that's from 15" up to standard.

Quite a few of these will be "new build" - ie. constructed within the last few years specifically to work on preserved or restored railways.

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

Not necessarily, a second rate engineer could probably get a train going along like a slinky, but the hydraulic cushioning provides what dynamicists refer to as a heavily damped response where motion in the draft gear is stopped.
The extra travel in the draft gear reduces the likelyhood of it "bottoming out" which is when the actual shock occurs. The springs in the gear are also non linear, where they get stiffer as they are compressed which also helps to reduce the motion.

Oh what a lovely image! I can see it now...

But Hugh's got it: all the cushion draft gears had some form of hydraulic dampening (except a few very early ones, which were friction and didn't work for beans). Both it and the springs were deliberately non-linear, so even if you had a really ham-fisted engineer it was almost impossible to bottom the gear in normal operation. You could bottom the gear, however, in hump yards; there is a very definite limit to how much impact could be absorbed. Many of these cars were used to transport more or less delicate stuff, though, and were not supposed to be humped.

[Hugh Jampton]

Not necessarily, a second rate engineer could probably get a train going along like a slinky, but the hydraulic cushioning provides what dynamicists refer to as a heavily damped response where motion in the draft gear is stopped.
The extra travel in the draft gear reduces the likelyhood of it "bottoming out" which is when the actual shock occurs. The springs in the gear are also non linear, where they get stiffer as they are compressed which also helps to reduce the motion.

[Murphy Siding]

The hydraulic cushioning makes sense, but why the long travel draft gear? Wouldn't having more slack make for a bumpier ride? Thanks

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

The old cushion cars had long travel draft gear.

OK What's a cushion car? Thanks

A cushion car usually refers to a freight car equipped with long travel draft gear and hydraulic cushioning in the underframe. Many were prominently lettered as being equipped as such: Shock Control (ATSF), Smooth Cushioned Load (Seaboard Coast Line), etc. They were often found in auto parts service.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

The old cushion cars had long travel draft gear.

OK What's a cushion car? Thanks

[Hugh Jampton]

The old cushion cars had long travel draft gear.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by jchnhtfd

Also, in the US, the slack action is much more in the draft gears than in the couplers -- the couplers should have very little slack (they have to have some), but the draft gears may have anything from several inches to several feet, depending on the gear.

Several feet of slack per car? I always thought it was just a couple inches per car. What kind of cars would have lots of slack built into the draft gear? Thanks

[jchnhtfd]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit
the guard would be expected to keep the train stretched using the brakes on his van to avoid snatching.

Snatching? What would we call that? Thanks

.

Slack run-out.

Couple of other notes -- many US passenger trains have very little slack action, in spite of standard draft gears, because it is taken up with buffers between the cars. They're light enough so that they can start as a unit without problems.

Also, in the US, the slack action is much more in the draft gears than in the couplers -- the couplers should have very little slack (they have to have some), but the draft gears may have anything from several inches to several feet, depending on the gear.

[germanium]

If the couplers are slack, starting off suddenly with a jerk suddenly stretches the couplers and could break the coupling chains. A sensible railroad engineer would start off gradually with knuckle couplers, else could break the couplers - similarly with chain couplings. (the jerk of course is the one in the couplings, not the one in the cab !!!)

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit
the guard would be expected to keep the train stretched using the brakes on his van to avoid snatching.

Snatching? What would we call that? Thanks

.

[Hugh Jampton]

They are just fancy chains, the buffers are hydaulic (now, but sprung in the past) devices that cushion and absorb the compressive forces.
The fancy chain has a screw on it that you can adjust the slack and create a preload on the buffers if you fancy.
UK trains are also short by comparison. Also in the US the slack is not only in the knuckle, but mainly in the drawbar where there is a spring type thing I recall.

[Anonymous]

The slack is taken out by tightening the screw link until the buffers make good contact - this can cause problems on very sharp curves (in industrial or dock areas) but they can be loosened off if needed. It's not dissimilar to the use of a turnbuckle adjuster as part of a securing chain for a machine load. The fun (if you can call it that!) was with the old 3-link couplers which had no adjuster. Goods trains so fitted tended to run at 25mph or less, and the guard would be expected to keep the train stretched using the brakes on his van to avoid snatching.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Question about buffers and link-and-screw couplers: How is slack minimized with this sort of coupling? American knuckle couplers are castings and have a relatively small amount of slack but link-and-screw couplers look like fancy chains with a lot of play in them.

[Murphy Siding]

Hey Simon: It appears from the other post about the S-1, that your group is making some progress! How many people are working on this project?

[Hugh Jampton]

Happy to help. That's a very good site in a number of areas.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton
Check out this page;
http://www.railway-technical.com/track.html#Rail
There's an end on drawing.

Hugh Jamrton: Thanks for that link. That was awesome! I learned a lot more about tracks and railroad construction than I'll ever need to know.[:)]

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

Officially the maximum axle load is now 250kN,which as Malcolm pointed out is 25 Imperial tones, or 28 US tons).
The standard rail section for mainlines is now UIC60, which is 60kg/m (just over 120 lbs/yd). London Underground is in the painstakingly slow process of replacing their bullhead with BS113A flatbottomed rail.

For those that are going; What?? Bullhead is on the left, Flatbottom on teh right

That's spooky, that you answered a question I was just getting ready to post![(-D] How does the profile of the bullhead rail differ? It's difficult to see from the photo. Thanks

Check out this page;
http://www.railway-technical.com/track.html#Rail
There's an end on drawing.

[Simon Reed]

Nothing to do with railways I know but on my one and only (so far) visit to Sioux Falls (March 9th 1999) the sun had come out after days of heavy snow. My abiding memory is sitting in a cafe watching the pile of snow opposite get smaller.

Here it's just above freezing point with a wind chill taking it to several degrees below. Unusual for the UK, although as I'm not allowed to smoke in the house it's good for my lungs in a roundabout way, because I'd rather go without than go out!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

Officially the maximum axle load is now 250kN,which as Malcolm pointed out is 25 Imperial tones, or 28 US tons).
The standard rail section for mainlines is now UIC60, which is 60kg/m (just over 120 lbs/yd). London Underground is in the painstakingly slow process of replacing their bullhead with BS113A flatbottomed rail.

For those that are going; What?? Bullhead is on the left, Flatbottom on teh right

That's spooky, that you answered a question I was just getting ready to post![(-D] How does the profile of the bullhead rail differ? It's difficult to see from the photo. Thanks

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Martin - thanks for that. We've a working party tomorrow so if we survive the Siberian weather (Murphy - you'd feel at home in the UK at the moment. The weather is awful) I'll let Rugbytown know and write to Mr. Morgan next week.

Simon: I'm sitting home right now, eating leftovers for lunch. It's an unseasonally (Incredibly) warm 48 degrees! Four blocks away, the Ellis & Eastern Railroad is toot-tooting it's way through town. I may just be in paradise, and don't know it.[:)]

[Simon Reed]

Martin - thanks for that. We've a working party tomorrow so if we survive the Siberian weather (Murphy - you'd feel at home in the UK at the moment. The weather is awful) I'll let Rugbytown know and write to Mr. Morgan next week.

[Hugh Jampton]

Officially the maximum axle load is now 250kN,which as Malcolm pointed out is 25 Imperial tones, or 28 US tons).
The standard rail section for mainlines is now UIC60, which is 60kg/m (just over 120 lbs/yd). London Underground is in the painstakingly slow process of replacing their bullhead with BS113A flatbottomed rail.

For those that are going; What?? Bullhead is on the left, Flatbottom on teh right

[mhurley87f]

FAO Simon Reed and Rugbytown

An old friend has suggested that for Photographs of the Steel Company of Wales ALCOs at work at Port Talbot, you might make contact with Mr. Keith Morgan at 87 West Road, Nottage, Porthcawl, CF36 3RY, who will be pleased to assist.

Mr. Morgan is the Curator at CORUS's Tinplate Industry Museum at Trostre Works, Llanelli (believe it or not, it's housed in the thatched cottage that was the original Trostre Farmhouse prior to the building of the Works in 1950/1952). The Museum isn't open daily, hence his suggestion that you write to his home address.

Mr. Morgan spent the greater part of his working life with Steel Company of Wales / British Steel / CORUS at Port Talbot, and has a good portfolio of the internal locomotives at that time.

Hope this helps a worthy preservation idea.

Good luck with your work.

Martin

[malcolmyoung]

The largest freight cars are 100 tons gross weight on 4 axles (2 four wheel trucks) they can be tank cars, open or covered hoppers or open cars (gondolas). They usually weigh around 25 tons empty and carry a load of about 75 tons. some of these cars are fitted with automatic centre couplers to the same design as American AAR couplers and those designed to be unloaded by rotary dumpers are fitted with tightlock couplers. Most though are still fitted with the BR standard hook and screw shackle coupling and side buffers.
Malc.

[malcolmyoung]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

We've seen a lot of discussion about North American rail lines having to be upgraded to handle 286,000 # cars. What kind of loading is typical on British lines? Does the smaller size of British cars limit the weight alot? Thanks

The maximum axle load allowed on any Briti***rack is 25 tons (Imperial Tons - 2240 lbs - I ton) A lot of branch lines are less than this. The standard rail section now used is 113 lb per yard flat bottom rail. There is also quite a lot of old 98 lb bull head rail still in use and it is still rolled for the London Underground.
Malc.