British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

I only ever had one mainline Deltic - 19 - and embarrasingly I had it Waverley - Haymarket!

Murphy - keep that book open at the Edinburgh page to see why I'm embarrased.

Simon: I'm looking for clues, but I'm not seeing it?

[Simon Reed]

Irish Rail's GM 071 class could do passable Deltic impressions, though.

Immediately outside Cork Station is a long tunnel with a fairly steep climb and 071's sounded incredible through that.

Incidentally - for those who got involved in the "how good are GM's really?" debate on here a little while ago there's an interesting article on 57's in this months Railway Magazine.

[owlsroost]

Dave - I'm extremely jealous....[:)]

One good reason for liking the Deltics was the noise they made - there's a sample of it here - http://www.delticsounds.com/audio_files/nrm4.wav

The deep, pulsating humming noise at idle changes to a loud drone as the engines speed up - very distinctive (and commonly accompanied by lots of white smoke as the accumulated oil in the exhaust system gets burnt off after a station stop [:)])

Tony

[daveklepper]

I am happy to say that I had a Deltic cab ride at a steady 100mph London - Newcastle. I was thrilled by the experience. This was because I was a tour leader for an ERA visit, and British Rail had made most of our arrangements with our travel agency. Even though this was an electric railfan tour, it was arranged to accomodate general railway interest. Included was the Isle of Wight. In 1962 I had ridden all three steam operated lines there, then on this ERA trip rode the ex-underground equipment. In 1962 I had ridden all three steam Isle of Man lines, then the return had just one running.

[Simon Reed]

I only ever had one mainline Deltic - 19 - and embarrasingly I had it Waverley - Haymarket!

Murphy - keep that book open at the Edinburgh page to see why I'm embarrased.

[Tulyar15]

The other thing about the Deltics is there were only 22 of them (plus the prototype which became a museum piece once the production Deltics were up and running) and their sphere of operation was largely confined to the East Coast Main Line between London - King's Cross and Leeds/Edinburgh. Those they were highly sought after by railfans from the rest of the country, like myself.

When I first became interest in trains, steam had gone and "Hymek" and "Warship" diesel hydraulic locos worked the few inter city trains on my local line at Malvern, Worcestershire. Most passenger trains were DMU's while freight trains were few and far between. In due course the diesel hydraulic locos gave way to classes 31, 47 and 50 whilst 25's and 37's were common at Worcester and Hereford as were classes 45 and 46 "Peaks".

In their last years the Deltics were sometimes used on Trans Pennine expresses from Newcastle-upon-Tyne to Liverpool. I hoped they'd show up at Birmingham on Newcastle - Bristol/Cardiff trains but this never happened. Indeed the only time I had a Deltic for haulage on a regular, scheduled train was an Edinburgh - Plymouth train I caught after an (unsuccessful) interview at Durham. But my hopes of having Deltic haulage all the way to Birningham were dashed when it was removed at York and replaced by 47. At that time I was very disappointed as the 500 strong class 47s were everywhere but now I'd be qiute happy with 47 haulage!

[Murphy Siding]

I finally got a little downtime to check out the OPC Rail Atlas that Simon Reed sent me.[:)]. I was just about on the floor with laughter hen I realized that the Royal Albert Bridge connects Devon with Cornwall![:O] When I looked at where I *thought* it should be, the map took me to somewhere around Edinburgh. I'm just shaking my head. I had it in my head that this bridge somewhat connected England to Scotland.[:I]




~

[Anonymous]

Deltics do have a big following, but they were retired over 20 years ago now - younger enthusiasts won't have seen them on the main line on regular trains (though they may have managed to get tickets for one of the railtours of recent years). Personally I like them, but I'm guessing there must be people who've never been near one and don't see the appeal. I grew up watching 1st generation DMUs on the Heart of Wales line so I'll always have a soft spot for them, though pretty much any older diesels and electrics are a good sight, the new stuff seems to have a lot less character (would rather have a Class 101 than a new 2nd generation unit any day!).

[daveklepper]

But don't most British fans like the Deltics no matter what brand of diesel is their main addiction? That was my impression, that the Deltics were the one type with universal appeal.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Tony - it's myself (manager for a home shopping company), Gordon Atkinson (manager for a company that makes Sonar equipment) and Tim (DRS driver) so far. Interested? Send a message off-group if so.

Message sent.

Tony

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

In the editor's lead-in page of The Railway Magazine that Simon sent me ([:D]), was the following: "The average British railfan tends to fall into one of five main camps-GW, LNE, LMS,SR and MT(modern traction)". Is that true? And, if it is,where do your main interests lie? It would appear, to me, at least, that several of you Brits might fall into the GW and/or MT groups? American railfans, on the other hand,are not easy to classify-we're all over the place.
Thanks

I'm basically a MT person, but with GW leanings in a historical sense - probably because the nearest railway line to the family home in my teenage years was an ex-GW one (Stourbridge-Birmingham, complete with lower-quadrant semaphore signals and the occasional 'Western' hauling vacuum-braked china clay wagons back then).

Tony

[oubliette]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Oubliette - I assume that you're the same person that has expressed an interest in the Alco S1 at Peterborough on the UK Alco group site.

This correct.

[oubliette]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

In the editor's lead-in page of The Railway Magazine that Simon sent me ([:D]), was the following: "The average British railfan tends to fall into one of five main camps-GW, LNE, LMS,SR and MT(modern traction)".

I think more so in the steam days people had more of dedication and interest to their own region because many of the regions had loco's unique to them. Whilst people still have their preferences today of modern traction I think the interest is more general as a whole. You still get people who prefer regions/loco's of a certain type or maybe DMU's or EMU's. My interest is general and of course it goes without saying a big interest to me is the North American scene. I have made a few trips recently and intend to make more to the US/Canada.

Of course there are extremes of railfanning in the UK. There are people who may only like loco's with Sulzer engines or English Electric engines. Whilst I have preferences to certain types I find it odd that people will get off a train because the loco they wanted at the front of the train was the wrong type. This happens quite frequently at preserved railways, people may turn up for (say for an example) a class 47 and if a class 37 rolls in they won't get on it. I remember once when a Sulzer loco was rostered on the train and its electric train supply wasn't working for the heating, an English Electric loco was put on the opposite end to provide heat.

To save time instead of running the Sulzer onto the other end of the train when it reached its destination they just used the English Electric loco to pull it back to the original starting point. The Sulzer fans all got off and caught the bus back because they would not ride behind an English Electric loco. They did this all day, riding one way behind the Sulzer and catching bus back. This shows how extreme it can get. Most of this rivalry is only light hearted but I find it so funny to watch.

[Murphy Siding]

In the editor's lead-in page of The Railway Magazine that Simon sent me ([:D]), was the following: "The average British railfan tends to fall into one of five main camps-GW, LNE, LMS,SR and MT(modern traction)". Is that true? And, if it is,where do your main interests lie? It would appear, to me, at least, that several of you Brits might fall into the GW and/or MT groups? American railfans, on the other hand,are not easy to classify-we're all over the place.
Thanks

[owlsroost]

A few websites for the above:

The Great Little Trains of Wales - http://www.greatlittletrainsofwales.co.uk/timetable.htm

Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway - http://www.rhdr.org.uk/rhdr/rhdr.html

Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway - http://www.ravenglass-railway.co.uk/

The National Tramway Museum - http://www.tramway.co.uk/

Tony

[daveklepper]

The Welsh narrow gauge lines are also Vintage Railways and well worth visiting and riding. I rode the Festiniog, Vale of Rydole (then still run by B. R.) and Tallilyn. I assume they are all still running.

Then there are the mineature steam railways that are passenger carrying model railroads: Romy Hyth and Dimchurch, Ravenwood?? and Ecksdale (very scenic). The latter connects or did connect with a passenger carrying scale model of an ocean liner used as a lake steamer. There are others. Like USA "Garden Railways" except they go some place and are actually used by some people for commuting!

Then the trolley museums.

[Tulyar15]

In Britain, the term "heritage railway" can cover a wide diversities, from museum lines which dont really go anywhere but whose main purpose is to demonstrate how steam trains and their associated infrastructure worked, to lines in scenic areas of the British Isles who often go from A to B where both A and B are places of general interest to tourists.

Examples of the former might include the Midland Railway Centre, Didcot Railway Centre whilst the latter the North Yorks. Moors and the Ffestinog. Some of the latter are commercial undertakings with paid staff but even so there's usually some input by unpaid volunteers.

From a railfan's point of view the premier league of heritage lines would include the Severn Valley, Mid-Hants, Bluebell, Keighley & Worth Valley, Great Central and the East Lancs.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Oubliette - I assume that you're the same person that has expressed an interest in the Alco S1 at Peterborough on the UK Alco group site.

If so - keep an eye on the site. The group committee are meeting in York on Saturday and hope to be able to announce a meeting for all interested parties shortly afterwards.

There may be a couple of "heritage railways" - a term I dislike immensely - you'll want to get involved with shortly!

What is a more appropriate name for that type of railway in Britain? We Americans typically refer to ours as *tourist railroads*, of which we do not have nearly enough,considering what a big part railroads have played in our history.

[Simon Reed]

Oubliette - I assume that you're the same person that has expressed an interest in the Alco S1 at Peterborough on the UK Alco group site.

If so - keep an eye on the site. The group committee are meeting in York on Saturday and hope to be able to announce a meeting for all interested parties shortly afterwards.

There may be a couple of "heritage railways" - a term I dislike immensely - you'll want to get involved with shortly!

[oubliette]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

My Dec. '05 issue of The Railway Magazine. courtesy of Simon Reed, talks about a "heritage railway". What is that, exactly?
Thanks

Take a look at:

http://www.east-lancs-rly.co.uk/index2.php

Basically a railway that runs older trains or trains that in the main are not running on the main line any more. Many trains that run on heritage lines cannot run on the main line of the main network due to more stringent regulations. Some loco's however are able to run off a heritage site onto the mainline because they are main line certified.

Running a loco on a heritage railway is slightly different to running it on a main line. Heritage railways tend to be short and mainly for the tourist. The link above will take you to a preserved railway that runs both steam and diesel trains.

[Anonymous]

I would guess that the term "heritage railway" is now used for preserved lines - these are usually operated by volunteers and open to the public. The Severn Valley Railway and the Llangollen Railway would be two that spring to mind, both have been around for many years. There are probably hundreds ranging from twin-track near mainline setups (the Great Central Railway) to small dockside operations attached to another museum (the Bristol Industrial Museum) - if you type any of these into google.co.uk you should find plenty of information, they all have websites.

[Murphy Siding]

My Dec. '05 issue of The Railway Magazine. courtesy of Simon Reed, talks about a "heritage railway". What is that, exactly?
Thanks

[oubliette]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Tony - it's myself (manager for a home shopping company), Gordon Atkinson (manager for a company that makes Sonar equipment) and Tim (DRS driver) so far. Interested? Send a message off-group if so.

Tim, know him well, top bloke.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Also, I suppose the Pullmans with their tea service are not around any more.

Afraid so - the last one (Manchester-Euston) stopped running some years ago.

First class (and 'silver service' dining on some trains) is still around on long distance services, but most local/secondary/commuter trains are standard class only - and have been since the 1980's at least.

FM Rail has recently repainted a set of ex-Virgin 1st class Mk2 cars in the old 1960's diesel 'Blue Pullman' livery for upmarket charter train use - http://mark-herriott.fotopic.net/c820239.html

Tony

[Simon Reed]

Tony - it's myself (manager for a home shopping company), Gordon Atkinson (manager for a company that makes Sonar equipment) and Tim (DRS driver) so far. Interested? Send a message off-group if so.

[daveklepper]

I did get back to the source of American Civilization (Great Britain) before moving to Israel and had the real pleasure of renewing my aquaintance with the classic Blackpool trams and also rode the first of the new semi-light rail operations, Docklands and Tyne and Wear. But I am very happy now that I had sampled British steam in the land of the invention of the steam locomotive while main line steam passenger trains still were around, behind both a Gresley A4 and a Southern Bullard Pacific. Also, I suppose the Pullmans with their tea service are not around any more. I didn't come across any on my last visit. Rode both the Bournmouth Bell and the Brighton Bell, the latter the multiple-unit Pullman equipment.

For North American readers, a British Pullman was NOT A SLEEPING CAR. It was analagous to a USA Parlor car, with refreshments usually included in the fare. Seating was two on on side one on the other, with facing seats and a table between, on which the refreshments were served. Exterior paint was usually chocolate and cream, if my memory serves, and the interiors green plush with decorations on the seats and varnished woodwork everywhere else. There were all-Pullman trains and sometimes one or two on a regular train.

I did note on my last visit that there were still first-class and second-class coaches on many trains. But I understand that some of the private services are now all one-class.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

I think the last passenger closure was Balloch Pier in 1986, although I understand that it was a service with very little patronage other than for Loch Lomond cruises.

Speaking of passenger train withdrawals we've planned our October Amtrak event which goes (subject to last minute refinement):-

Fly to Boston

Downeaster to Portland and back - meaning that I've travelled by rail in Maine, my third last State.

Lake Shore Limited Boston - Chicago, where our party divides. I'll be having another ride on the CSSB, whereas others will be chasing down F40's on Metra.

I then do South West Chief to Alberquerque, doing Rail Runner, then continuing on the Chief to LA, while the others do California Zephyr, then South from Emeryville on a Capitols or San Jouquin service.

I'll kill time by covering locos on the Surfliners until we all assemble in San Diego to fly home.

I think that's more Amtrak than most US railfans have ever done...

Simon - is this a 'formally' organised tour, or just a group of friends organising it for themselves ?

Tony

[Simon Reed]

That is indeed what I meant, and that is indeed where the term "navvies" comes from.

Dave - many of our bigger urban areas now have an intensive suburban railway system on the mainland European model. In some cities - Manchester, Sheffield, Nottingham and Birmingham/Wolverhampton - this network is complemented by light rail systems although the Government has recently turned it's back on further expansion of light rail. Given the tremendous success of light rail elsewhere in the world, including the US, this is a peculiar decision.

Tyne and Wear, like London Underground, is a bit of a mix and match. It follows many of the established precepts of light rail in terms of a very intensive service with closely distributed stations, yet it runs on former BR lines (and, in the case of the Sunderland extension, shares Network Rail tracks). The infrastructure remains very much "heavy rail."

It's a fascinating system and, to say that it is nearly 30 years old, has stood up extremely well to the passage of time. Although it's cars are dated compared to, say, Nottingham they are still perfectly acceptable.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I think he means planning the route. The guys who built the railways were called Navies as they learned their trade building canals or "inland navigations" as they were called at that time in Britain.

Thanks. I never understood where the term "navies" came from.[;)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I think he means planning the route. The guys who built the railways were called Navies as they learned their trade building canals or "inland navigations" as they were called at that time in Britain.

Thanks. I never understood where the term "navies" came from.