British Railway Operations

[owlsroost]

I think a few operators have looked at converting sleepers to day coaches, but the costs were too high - and there's all the ex-VWC Mk3s around now.

It mainly seems to be politics that's keeping the Scottish and Cornish sleepers alive these days - faster daytime trains and low-cost airlines have eaten away the market for the other routes. The poor rolling stock utilisation and high servicing costs don't help either.

Tony

[Tulyar15]

As it is, half the MK 3 sleepers have already been sold off to preserved railways who use them as volunteer accomodation! Seems a bit of a waste - you'd have thought they could have converted them to day coaches. Some were also sold to the Danish Railways but I gather those cars have also returned to the UK.

I seem to recall that when the Mk3 sleepers were built they could not justify building enough of them to cover all the routes on which sleepers ran, so they axed some routes. But since many of the Mk3 sleepers have become surplues you'd have thought they could have at least tried reviving some of the axed routes rather than just let the cars site idle.If I remember rightly the Bristol - Edinburgh sleeper servcie went over to Mk3 but was later axed.

[owlsroost]

I wasn't counting the Nightstar cars because they never ran in UK service (there was some test running). The order was cancelled while they were being built by Alstom in Birmingham - so yes they are the latest (and probably the last ! ) constructed in the UK but not the latest to actually run in service here.

Tony

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

When were the latest sleeping cars constructed?

The last British Sleeper Stock were the cars labeled "Nightstar" and were constructed for a failed overnight companion to the Eurostars. None ever operated in the designed service and were eventually sold to Via in Canada where they now equip some eastern trains.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: When were the latest sleeping cars constructed?

The current Mk3 cars were built 1982-1984 (and given the periodic attempts to get rid of sleeper trains altogether, they're almost certainly the last of their breed in the UK).

Tony

[Anonymous]

Aye twas the sleeper and to paraphrase Black Sabbath:

"Spotters gathered in thierrrrrrrrrrrrrrr massssssssssseeeeeeeeeesssssss (Give it some welly Ozzy)
just like witchesssssssss at black masssssssseeeessssssss"

Top n Tailed last night. However, enthusiasts there were none. There was some small discussion on headcodes a few pages back in the thread and Virgin have also run trains under the Class 9 as an experiment.

[daveklepper]

When were the latest sleeping cars constructed?

[owlsroost]

There is a bit more on UK train numbers here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_reporting_number

(Class 3 used to be parcel trains, now it's 'over 75mph' freight - which probably amounts to the same thing really e.g. the EWS Walsall - Scotland parcel trains. Class 9 is now used for Eurostar trains - unfitted freight trains are now extinct).

I'd put money on 1A40 being the Penzance - London sleeper train too.....so presumably the usual class 57 wasn't available ?

Tony

[Tulyar15]

No, Cotswold Rail havent got any Whistlers. I'm guessing that 1A40 is the "Night Riviera" sleeping car train from Penzance to Paddington

(For those not in the know, in the 1960's British Rail came up a series of 4 character codes for identify train workings. Many diesel and electric locos at that time were fitted with indicators so that they could display these codes. These indicators were no longer used after 1976 but the codes are still used on signalling panels. Basically the first digit indicated the type of train thus:-

1 - Express passenger, breakdown crane or snow plough going to clear the line
2 - local passenger
3 - ?
4- Freight train authorised to run at 75mph( I think some of these now run at 90mph)
5 - empty passenger train, breakdown crane or snow plough NOTgoing to clear the line
6- Freight train authorised to run at 60mph
7- Freight train with max speed of 45mph
8 - Freight train only partially fiited - max speed 45mph
9 - Freight train with no continous brakes max speed 30 mph (very rare these days
0 - light engine(s)

In BR days the above number sequence determined the priority - class 1 being top priority.

The letter would signify the destination. In general all trains going to London, regardless of what region they were on would have an 'A' here. In the case of trains where their destination was on a different region the letter would indicate the destination region thus:-

E - Eastern
M - London Midland
O - Southern
S - Scottish
V - Western

Certain letters had special meaning. Z signifies special trains while X is used for VIP specials. I believe the Royal Train has the headcode 1X00

I'm not sure what the significance of the remaining two digits were)

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload



On Topic: There were several "bashers" lurking at my local station last night as a big silver engine with Cotswold Rail was pulling 1A40....(I will let you guess what that headcode stands for)

A Whistler perhaps?

[Anonymous]

Off Topic: I have finally joined the broadband revolution. Faster than a pint of lager on a hot day.

On Topic: There were several "bashers" lurking at my local station last night as a big silver engine with Cotswold Rail was pulling 1A40....(I will let you guess what that headcode stands for)

Off Topic: Music of the Day - Ash. 1977.

[Tulyar15]

Sometimes! If there's clouds of blue smoke it's either a Deltic or else got one hell of an oil leak!

Seriously though, a lot of the different classes of diesel loco can be recognised by their sounds. Sulzer engined locos tend to make a cough-cough sound whilst with English Electric locos its more a dub-dub-dub-dub sound

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

QUOTE: You guys are true railfans! I was picturing what was outside the coach that you were passing. Yet, you seem more interested in what is pulling the train-too funny.

I think we enjoy both (I certainly do), but if you've been interested in trains in the UK for a long time (30+ years in my case), you've probably travelled the main lines of the system many times over so the scenery gets familiar. Also a lot of UK railfans started out by collecting loco numbers - 'trainspotting' - and one of the natural progressions from this is trying to travel behind as many different locos as possible - 'bashing' - hence the interest in what's on the front...

Tony

Can you tell what's up front by the way the train handles?[:)]

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: You guys are true railfans! I was picturing what was outside the coach that you were passing. Yet, you seem more interested in what is pulling the train-too funny.

I think we enjoy both (I certainly do), but if you've been interested in trains in the UK for a long time (30+ years in my case), you've probably travelled the main lines of the system many times over so the scenery gets familiar. Also a lot of UK railfans started out by collecting loco numbers - 'trainspotting' - and one of the natural progressions from this is trying to travel behind as many different locos as possible - 'bashing' - hence the interest in what's on the front...

Tony

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by kevin1978

Readers of country life magazine have voted Newcastle to Edinburgh as Britain’s most scenic railway (to GNER’s – the routes operator – delight). Its very nice in my opinion but outstanding compared to some other routes that have been mentioned on here. Maybe those magazine readers haven’t travelled too much!

Country Life,, the magazine for the wannabe Gentry. The people who read this aren't likely to climb aboard a Class 144 DMU in Sheffield for a trip across the Peninnes. They're going to be in 1st class on a Regional Eurostar, so their experience is limited, and thus invalid.


Class 144 "Nodding Donkey"


Regional Eurostar (before the paint job)

[kevin1978]

Readers of country life magazine have voted Newcastle to Edinburgh as Britain’s most scenic railway (to GNER’s – the routes operator – delight). Its very nice in my opinion but outstanding compared to some other routes that have been mentioned on here. Maybe those magazine readers haven’t travelled too much!

[Murphy Siding]

You guys are true railfans! I was picturing what was outside the coach that you were passing. Yet, you seem more interested in what is pulling the train-too funny. And I thought I had trouble understanding cogload sometimes. (Just kidding- it's all good) Thanks

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Tony,
Where did you live in my grudgingly adopted home city?

Either on campus (off Great Horton Road) or in a shared house about half a mile further up the same road - opposite the 'Italia' cafe (if it's still there). As I was doing a 'sandwich' degree course, I also spent about 15 months working in Manchester so I got very familar with the Calder Valley line (Halifax - Todmorden) - still one of my favourite routes. Had a ride along it recently as a side trip during a day trip to Leeds on the last day of (official) Eurostar operation on GNER.

It's interesting that we've both picked a run over the northern section of the WCML behind an AC electric as a memorable 'thrash'.

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Bashers & Thrashers! I can't tell from the context, if that's good or bad?

If say, a sports team has been soundly beaten by another team sometimes people say the loosing team have been 'thrashed'. Generally, memorable train trips from a locomotive performance point of view involve a driver running a loco really hard - usually described as 'thrashing' it (Tulyar15's run behind 25 315 would probably come in this category [:)] ). So a good run behind a loco would be regarded as a good 'thrash'.

Tony

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

OK everyone, as we've strayed into nostalgia a bit (and it might be of interest to vistors to the UK):-

1. What are your favourite stretches of track in Britain from a scenery point of view ?

2. What are (or have been) your favourite journeys in Britain from a railfan perspective (you're allowed to be nostalgic here) ?

My nominations:-

1) The Cambrian Lines in Wales - Shrewsbury - Aberystwyth and Pwllheli (pronounced "Poo-fell-ee" for the benefit of those not familiar with the rules of Welsh pronounciation - in Welsh a "w" is pronounced like "oo" in English)

2) a) Having Deltic No 2 "KOYLI" (King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry) on an Edinburgh - Plymouth train between Durham and York - the only time I ever had a Deltic for haulage on a scheduled train

b) Going to Paignton on an excursion from Worcester Shrub Hill in 1981, Our 47 (101) failed at Cheltenham, we were dragged from there to Bristol by 25 315 which put up a respectable performance given its mere 1,200hp and the fact that it was dragging a dead 47 plus 12 BR Mk1 passenger cars. Then at Bristol it was replaced by 45 013 which put up a spirited run to Paignton, managing to make up some of the lost time

c) Having 4-4-0 "City of Truro" for haulage in May 2004 between Bristol and Kingswear on the centenary (almost to the day!) of its record breaking run.

d) having a run with Merchant Navy Pacific 35005 "Canadian Pacific" from Nuneaton to London Victoria via the Midland Main Line. Despite a half hour late start we were on time at Victoria.

Murphy - "Bashers" are people who like to get hauled by certain types of loco. Not sure what "Thrashers" are though.

[Murphy Siding]

Bashers & Thrashers! I can't tell from the context, if that's good or bad?[:)]

[Simon Reed]

OK. I've fed myself and the cats and had a think.

Routes:-

1 - Furness Line (Carnforth - Barrow) because I grew up with it. I know every curve and wrinkle and still love it.

2 - WCML Roade - Euston. You get to see pretty much everything British Railroading has to offer - this fits in with DaveKleppers' ideal. Dave - your knowledge is a bit dated. Come back over soon and I'm sure a few of us would be pleased to meet you.

3 - As previously voted - Central Wales line.

Thrash (and this took a bit of doing):-

1 - 85006 on a Euston-Carlisle control relief in 1986. I was having a beer at Preston waiting for 81010 south when that rolled in, and as I needed 006 I changed my plans. Driver was a totally desperate Carlisle man who needed to get home quickly. 'Nuff said. Shap did'nt exist. I was deeply worried that we were going to fall over coming through Penrith. Amazing.

2 - 40121 09.15 Blackpool- Newcastle, August 5th 1982. 121 was "my" machine anyway. Driven by a well known 40 basher Blackpool - Leeds, then another Leeds - Newcastle. She was in very sweet condition at that stage (Healey Mills machine - say no more). Hard to recall - after all this time - without the hairs on the back of my neck ***ling.

3 - Barclay 0-4-0ST "22" at Bowes. We'd seen Stiff Little Fingers the previous night then been out in Newcastle so I was a bit hyper anyway but this was fantastic. When driver realised that his only passengers were bashers (other halves were in the Metro Centre) he gave it full thrash. You had to be there really.

Oh, none of this makes sense to our American readers but I've enjoyed laying it down!

Murphy - next topic please!

[Simon Reed]

Tony,
Where did you live in my grudgingly adopted home city?

I bemoaned the lack of variety today solely from an enthusiast's point of view. I fully agree that to the general public today's passenger services are as attractive as they've ever been. Regular readers of this column will know that I tend towards Socialism, but with a heavy heart I have to conceed that putting the railways into a profit ethos has revitalised them beyond all recognition.

The much caricatured "jobsworth" railwayman has largely been replaced in customer facing roles by more people - oriented employees (except at Blackpool North, where they're still as nasty as ever), we have attractive and largely comfortable trains on our longer routes (yes, I'll conceed that there are exceptions), there's been a mighty investment in major and not-so-major stations and we have timetables (schedules) based on customer rather than operational requirements.

I'll go away now and have a think about best routes/thrash.

[Anonymous]

Line speed on the Heart of Wales is comparatively low - the lower end is maintained under a Light Railway Order. At a guess I'd say it was probably about 40-50mph at most. I'm not really sure how best to describe the scenery though - it's mostly green, lots of hills, single carriageway roads and the odd mid-sized town. There's one major piece of engineering on the northern end of the line in the form of the Knucklas Viaduct, which can be seen here www.heart-of-wales.co.uk/knucklas/viaduct.htm in fact that site has a lot of scenery photos which may be of interest - click on "HoWL" at the top to be taken to a map.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: I'm all for hearing about your favorite scenery & journeys, but you'll have to provide a little more detail, if you could. IF there were passenger trains in my area, the view would be cornfields and cornfields.

A general UK rail map is here - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/print_maps/uk.pdf

The Glasgow - Mallaig and Inverness - Kyle of Lochalsh routes are both in the western Scottish Highlands (top left hand side of the map). The scenery is mostly hills, moorland and lochs (lakes) and looks stunning in good weather (Fort William - Mallaig is particularly good).

The central section of Exeter - Newton Abbott (bottom left hand side of the map, between Dawlish Warren and Teignmouth) runs alongside the sea at the base of cliffs and through a few short tunnels - the station at Dawlish is right on the shoreline and regularly gets damaged by heavy waves if there are big storms. This is the same line that Cogload mentioned.

The Central Wales/Heart of Wales line runs from Llanelli to Craven Arms via Llandrindod (lower middle left hand side of the map) - it's been years since I last travelled the line so someone else would be better to describe the scenery.

Tony

(and I know what you mean about the 'cornfields and cornfields' - I've travelled on the California Zephyr, Pioneer and SW Chief between Chicago and the West Coast, and driven around Illinois and Iowa farming country....)

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

That's good to hear - a bit of variety would be a big improvement. Scenery here is mostly green, hilly, and with large numbers of sheep. http://www.railcar.co.uk/Gallery/Heart.htm is a photo gallery of the line in the days of 1st gen DMUs which may be of interest.

One of the photos in your collection shows a passenger train that hit a farm tractor at "track speed". What is typical track speed on a line like that?
Thanks

[Anonymous]

One of my favorite routes is Newcastle to Edinburgh. Probably a bit underated as you have go through some dull ugly bits on the outskirts of Newcastle and Edinburgh, but from say Morpeth to Drem with the exeption of Dunbar, the scenery is as varied as you can get on a mainline in Britain. Hopefully i will tick of Edinburgh - Aberdeen soon,(preferably by HST rarther than 170) and the Highland main line is a given.

[Anonymous]

That's good to hear - a bit of variety would be a big improvement. Scenery here is mostly green, hilly, and with large numbers of sheep. http://www.railcar.co.uk/Gallery/Heart.htm is a photo gallery of the line in the days of 1st gen DMUs which may be of interest.

[oubliette]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

I'd have to put in a plug for the Heart of Wales line on the scenery front, too bad we get those ghastly 153s instead of the old 1st generation types - I only managed to ride the older DMUs on a couple of occasions. There was talk last year of the TOC buying a few 1st gen units but nothing came of it -

Watch this space as their is currently one in our workshop right now destined for the Heart of Wales. Can't say anymore than that right now.

[Anonymous]

Umm...Sea Wall Devon - Exminster - Teignmouth. Cracking.

[daveklepper]

But one thing that may add to the variety today as compared with yesterday is shared track and rights-of-way with "light rail?" Of course nothing like the old days before WWII with many tram networks and possibly a thousand different types of steam locomotives, and I do mean about 1000. Also the rail system pre-Beeching was far denser, and people went everywhere by rail that now normally has auto usage.