British Railway Operations

[owlsroost]

Dave,

The suburban electric train system around Glasgow has expanded considerably since 1962 - electrification extends down the coast to Ayr and Largs, and several new/re-opened routes have been added around the city - see http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/print_maps/glasgow.pdf

It was only the short extension from Balloch (town) to Balloch Pier that closed - due to lack of regular passengers as Simon indicated.

Not sure how long it's been since your last visit to the UK, but if it's really been 40 years then I think it's high time you came back for an update [:)].

In general, passenger trains are a lot more frequent now (and mostly faster) than back then. Some things haven't changed much though - as part of the West Coast Modernisation project they recently refurbished several large (L&NWR vintage dating from the late 1800's) mechanical signalboxes at Stockport. This involved bringing engineers over from India because there weren't enough people in the UK any more with the necessary skills to undertake it - a side benefit I suppose from spreading British railway technology and culture around our ex-colonies. I was waiting for a train in Malaysia a few years ago admiring the (I think) Mackenzie & Holland lever frame on the platform controlling a set of lower-quadrant (Midland Railway style) semaphores, which may well have been there since the line was built.

Tony

[daveklepper]

I rode Glascow to Balloch Pier in 1962 and then the steamer to Tindurm and back to Glascow in the observation car. Balloch Pier was (is?) part of the electrified Glacow commuter train network, nearest thing the UK has to a German Schnellbahn system (also some would put Tyne and Wear Metro in that catagory), and I am surprised it has been abandoned. How do planned rail abandonments mesh with the Government's desire to cut fuel consumption? And reduce highway traffic?

In 1962, in additon to the London-Glascow sleeper, I also road Edinburgh - Manchester, which did not offer refreshments, just a bed.

[Tulyar15]

I think he means planning the route. The guys who built the railways were called Navies as they learned their trade building canals or "inland navigations" as they were called at that time in Britain.

[Tulyar15]

I think he means planning the route. The guys who built the railways were called Navies as they learned their trade building canals or "inland navigations" as they were called at that time in Britain.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Both Stephensons, but George in particular, quite literally pioneered the art of railway navigation

Simon- I don't quite get what you're saying here. What's railway navigation? As you're sort of limited by where the rails go, what's to navigate? Thanks

[Anonymous]

Richard Trevithick. "Goin up Camborne Hill coming down". One of the great Cornishmen and a celebrated hero; although and correct me If I am wrong apart from the Catch me If you can (circa 1804????) wasn't there a powered tramway in Sarf Wales somewhere?

And the printable words to the aforesaid song.......

Goin' Up Camborne Hill (Modern trans...)

Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.
The 'osses stood still, the wheels went aroun',
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

White stockans, white stockans, she wore,
White stockans, white stockans, she wore,
White stockans she wore, the same as before,
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

I knawed 'er ol' feether, old friend,
I knawed 'er ol' feether, old friend.
I knawed 'er old man, 'ee blawed in the band,
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

I 'ad her, I 'ad her, I did.
I 'ad her, I 'ad her, I did.
I 'ad her I did, it cost me a quid,
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

Oh please have a baby by me,
Oh please have a baby by me.
I'm young and I'm strong, won't take very long,
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

We 'eaved on more coal for more steam,
We 'eaved on more coal for more steam.
The steam 'it the beam, the wheels went aroun',
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.
The 'osses stood still, the wheels went aroun',
Gawn' up Camberne 'ill, comin' down.

An' we pushed the damper in an' we pulled the damper out,
An' the smoke went up the chimney just the same.
An' we pushed the damper in an' we pulled the damper out
An' the smoke went up the chimney just the same.
An' the smoke went up the chimney,
An' the smoke went up the chimney,
An' the smoke went up the chimney,
An' the smoke went up the chimney just the same

[Simon Reed]

I think the last passenger closure was Balloch Pier in 1986, although I understand that it was a service with very little patronage other than for Loch Lomond cruises.

Speaking of passenger train withdrawals we've planned our October Amtrak event which goes (subject to last minute refinement):-

Fly to Boston

Downeaster to Portland and back - meaning that I've travelled by rail in Maine, my third last State.

Lake Shore Limited Boston - Chicago, where our party divides. I'll be having another ride on the CSSB, whereas others will be chasing down F40's on Metra.

I then do South West Chief to Alberquerque, doing Rail Runner, then continuing on the Chief to LA, while the others do California Zephyr, then South from Emeryville on a Capitols or San Jouquin service.

I'll kill time by covering locos on the Surfliners until we all assemble in San Diego to fly home.

I think that's more Amtrak than most US railfans have ever done...

[Simon Reed]

I'd be inclined to agree with the comments about George Stephenson as a locomotive engineer. He took the ideas of many others - principally Blenkinsop, Blucher, Murray and Trevithick - then with some refinement and improvement created Rocket and it's successors.

Both Stephensons, but George in particular, deserve recognition for their surveying and civil engineering prowess. To state the case simply, no-one had ever built a railway to be operated by steam before so they quite literally pioneered the art of railway navigation, developing, applying and establishing principles that are still valid today.

Interestingly George received his education in surveying at the same place, and using largely the same methods, as Jeremiah Dixon of Mason-Dixon Line fame.

[Anonymous]

Looks like the South Wales valleys will be getting a better rail service - spotted this this morning on the BBC site:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_east/4662304.stm

Talk of new stations, trains, and more services. I know of a few 153's that they're quite welcome to...

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Wasn''t George Stephenson just as important as Brunel? Maybe even more?

Not really,, George's only claim to fame is that people think he invented the locomotive.
Whereas Isembard built railways, bridges, tunnels, ships etc.

While it's true that he didn't "invent" the steam locomotive, his Rocket did incorporate innovative features which were fundamentally important - fire tube boiler aspirated by exhaust steam, brick arch, and direct drive from piston rods to wheels. He also was a pretty good Civil Engineer and the routes he engineered likewise involved bridges, tunnels, embankments and cuttings. Let's not forget that he also perfected a Miners Safety Lamp, but he wasn't deemed important enough to deserve a Knighthood like Sir Humphrey Davy.

Perhaps where he stands head and shoulders above Brunel is that he understood the economic benefits of having a network of railways constructed to a common standard gauge.

Martin

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE:

Reaching back into the memory, I can't remember any significant line closures since the ones in the 1970's (e.g. Bridport - Maiden Newton and Haltwhistle - Alston) other than the light rail conversions in Tyneside, Manchester, Croydon etc.

If I remember rightly, the last passenger line in Britain to be closed was the Tunbridge Wells - Eridge line in Sussex in 1985; most of which has been re-opened by preservationists as "The Spa Valley Railway".

There have been closure scares for some time now. On the one hand , Roger Ford in his "Informed Sources" column in Modern Railways keeps pointing out how the cost of the fragmented structure of the British national rail network costs about 4 times what British Rail used to cost (see http://www.alycidon.com to view his articles on line) and the government is gone to have to look to make spending cuts given that the economy is slowing down.

The Welsh and Scottish Parliaments are funding more rail re-openings so the brunt of any cutbacks is likely to be borned in the English regions - particularly the North amd the far South West. It was expected that when the new combined Great Western and Wessex franchise was to be announced (which starts in April 2006) that this would include service cuts. But all the threatened services (including the Cornish sleeper train) seem to have escaped unscathed as they are all included in the winning franchisee's plans. Meanwhile my employers are having talks with the new Franchise operator (Firstgroup) about re-opening Corsham station near Bath.

Since the Strategic Rail Authority was scrapped there do however seem to be faint signs of a more positive attitude emerging. We shall see. Given the governments slender majority I dont think they'll do anything too politically risky before the next election.

[owlsroost]

Robert Stephenson (his son) has probably got a greater claim to fame than George - he founded 'Robert Stephenson & Company' in 1823 to build locomotives (his father was a partner), and in 1833 became chief engineer for the London & Birmingham railway (the first main line into London).

He later designed the famous tubular railway bridges at Conwy and across the Menai Straits (the world's first 'box girder' bridges) and the original tubular deck of Victoria Bridge across the St Lawrence in Montreal amongst others.

Tony

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Wasn''t George Stephenson just as important as Brunel? Maybe even more?

Not really,, George's only claim to fame is that people think he invented the locomotive.
Whereas Isembard built railways, bridges, tunnels, ships etc.

[daveklepper]

Wasn''t George Stephenson just as important as Brunel? Maybe even more?

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

Speaking of Isambard Kingdom Brunel and the Royal Albert Bridge:
http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=28610&cat=500&ppuser=3182

Quite interesting, thanks for sharing. It looks like someone had a nice vacation!

[Anonymous]

Ah the RAB. What greater way can there be of entering Gods Own Country (bias here) then over that magnificent structure. And with the great mans name emblazoned on the Arch.

The closure process seems a lot easier now; though some of our glorious politicans have failed to grasp the concept of devolution so it seems. The Scots and Welsh branches/lines should be relatively safe - however it seems that "coz we can't run it this way we'll close it mentality exists". This government has been an almighty disappointment.

The sleepers have buffets/seating accom. When living in Kingsteignton I used to catch the sleeper home from work. Get smashed in town first then buy more on the train! I think tea/coffee is also served for those wanting it in the berths as well.

[Isambard]

Speaking of Isambard Kingdom Brunel and the Royal Albert Bridge:
http://www.railroadforums.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=28610&cat=500&ppuser=3182

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Originally posted by germanium

Owlsroost - don't you mean "7 feet" for the gauge ??

Whoops - yes of course (7 feet 0¼ inch to be precise) [:I]

I'll edit the original post. - thanks for the correction.

Tony

[germanium]

Owlsroost - don't you mean "7 feet" for the gauge ??

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Pwllheli (pronounced "Poo-fell-ee" for the benefit of those not familiar with the rules of Welsh pronounciation - in Welsh a "w" is pronounced like "oo" in English)

And you're familiar with Welsh pronunciation?? 10 out of 10 for "W" but 0 out of 10 for "LL" - try putting the tip of your toungue on your top gum immediately behind your front teeth, and exhale around it.

Try it, Sally traffic does Llanelli and Llangollen very, very, well.

M

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

In a magazine that Simon Reed sent me (thanks a million Simon), there is a little blurb about Isambard Kingdom Brunel. Now there, is an interesting man! The magazine article mentions his name with that of Churchill, as far as influential people in Britain is concerned. Has anybody read a good biography of the man?
Thanks

If you type 'Isambard Kingdom Brunel biography' into Google lots of stuff should come up, there's a bit here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/brunel_kingdom_isambard.shtml and http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/society_culture/industrialisation/brunel_isambard_01.shtml

He came second to Churchill in a poll the BBC conducted a while ago where over a million people voted for their 'Greatest Briton' from shortlist of ten - the results are here - http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/greatbritons.shtml (and I'll probably never understand how 'Diana, Princess of Wales' got on the shortlist, let alone to third place.....)

In civil engineering, railways and ship design he was pioneering engineer. He understood from the start the potential of high speed train travel, which is why he opted for 7 foot gauge on the GWR because he felt that the greater stability it afforded would be essential for the sort of speeds he envisaged. For years the GWR in broad-gauge days ran the fastest trains in the world - and of course the same route hosted the UK's first 125mph train services in the 1970's (still running over the famous flat-arch brick bridge at Maidenhead, which some people predicted would collapse under the - very light - weight of the locomotives around at the time it was built in the 1830's !)

Tony

(I'll leave it to Cogload to eulogise about the Royal Albert Bridge [:)]) )

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Being a little alarmist are'nt we Mr. C.?

Every so often this story rolls around - it did so before privatisation and will continue to do so. There are elements within the upper echelons of the civil service who suggest that the treasury might be better off if the rail network was pruned, and this rumbles on for a bit in the national press until it's dropped in favour of lost whales or similar.

The closest we've ever come was the Serpell Report and that fell flat, partially due to the very pro-road Thatcher government realised that the electorate would'nt swallow such a scything blow to the network.

Mind you, Tory B Liar does whatever George tells him to, and we know that George does'nt like passenger trains...

I agree with Simon on this one - the political fallout from pruning anything in Cornwall would be much too high (it was only a half-hearted attempt to kill the sleeper - closing lines is waaaay higher up the political pain scale....)

Reaching back into the memory, I can't remember any significant line closures since the ones in the 1970's (e.g. Bridport - Maiden Newton and Haltwhistle - Alston) other than the light rail conversions in Tyneside, Manchester, Croydon etc.

Inverness - Kyle of Localsh was proposed for closure back then (but was refused), and of course the Settle & Carlisle has escaped the axe more recently - we've had a good few line re-openings since then too.

If the politicians haven't got the stomach to put the Stockport - Stalybridge passenger 'service' (one train a week in one direction only!) out of it's misery, I think it's very unlikely anything more ambitious would get through the closure process.

Tony

(and don't you think 'Haltwhistle' is a great name for a railway station [:)] )

[Murphy Siding]

In a magazine that Simon Reed sent me (thanks a million Simon), there is a little blurb about Isambard Kingdom Brunel. Now there, is an interesting man! The magazine article mentions his name with that of Churchill, as far as influential people in Britain is concerned. Has anybody read a good biography of the man?
Thanks

[daveklepper]

Do the remaining sleeper routes still have clubcars? What about breakfast? When I rode the London-Glascow sleeper in 1962, I remember getting a drink the bar car before retiring and was served "tea and biscuts" before arriving, I think at the compartment. Enjoyed the overnight ride thoroughly, quite comparable to the best in the USA, including the Super Chief and the Broadway.

[Simon Reed]

Being a little alarmist are'nt we Mr. C.?

Every so often this story rolls around - it did so before privatisation and will continue to do so. There are elements within the upper echelons of the civil service who suggest that the treasury might be better off if the rail network was pruned, and this rumbles on for a bit in the national press until it's dropped in favour of lost whales or similar.

The closest we've ever come was the Serpell Report and that fell flat, partially due to the very pro-road Thatcher government realised that the electorate would'nt swallow such a scything blow to the network.

Mind you, Tory B Liar does whatever George tells him to, and we know that George does'nt like passenger trains...

[Anonymous]

germanium's comment is accepted with equally good grace. Mind you the county is arther longnthin, so 250 aint that far away.

Question is - will we have a railway in 5 years? Probabley not.

[germanium]

Cogload's distance correction is accepted with good grace.

[Anonymous]

The Scottish Sleeper is funded by the Scots Parliament. They will determine its future.

n.b and the distance from Padd to my part of Cornwall is 300 miles.

[germanium]

There was recently an attempt to dispense with the Cornish sleepers (distance only around 200-250 miles), but was dropped after political pressure and adverse publicity.
The distance is hardly economic for a sleeper service, so one wonders about its long-term future (if any). The Scottish sleeper service is double the distance, but again the costs vs revenue disparity may well determine its future.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

It mainly seems to be politics that's keeping the Scottish and Cornish sleepers alive these days - faster daytime trains and low-cost airlines have eaten away the market for the other routes.

Tony

Do the Scottish and Cornish sleepers compete better with fast daytime trains and low-cost airlines, or are these operations heavily subsidized?
Thanks