British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

malcolmyoung: What did SCOW replace the ALOC's with? Am I to read that the S1 was still in service when it was purchased? Thanks

[malcolmyoung]

Quote:
I would also like to know how this ALCO ended up in Wales? Why didn't British Steel Corp buy English Electric? What were they used for? I think i can understand why you want to save it as i've heard ALCO's on videos and they sound great. Not that enviromentaly friendly but a top sound.

The Steel Company Of Wales (SCOW) built a large integrated steelworks at Port Talbot in South Wales and wanted powerful diesel locos to move the very heavy hot metal trains from the blast furnaces to the steel making plant. At that time, the late 1940s- early 1950s, there was nobody in the UK building diesel locos above two or three hundred horsepower for industrial use, in fact the majority of industrial loco builders were still building steam locos. Alco was in a position to supply off the shelf S1s at short notice so SCOW ordered five. They were very highly thought of by both the managent and the crews who operated them. When we went to Port Talbot to look at 803 before buying it, the works transport manager told us that they were the best locos that they ever had and was sorry to see them go.
Malc.

[Anonymous]

I would also like to know how this ALCO ended up in Wales? Why didn't British Steel Corp buy English Electric? What were they used for? I think i can understand why you want to save it as i've heard ALCO's on videos and they sound great. Not that enviromentaly friendly but a top sound.

[malcolmyoung]

What possessed you guys to pick an ALCo as a preservation project?

In the UK there is no other choice if you want to preserve an American diesel loco.
All the rest are EMDs and are all still in service (I think there is an ex Ford Motor Company GEC loco somewhere, maybe on the Kent & East Sussex Railway??)Three of the five original Alco S1s from Port Talbot stil exist, 801, 803 & 804. I am involved with the group that owns 803 (serial Number 77777, Feb 1950) This loco is at Wallingford on the Cholsey and Wallingford Railway in Oxfordshire and is not at present in operatig condition, although some work has been done which was largely undone by vandals unfortunately. I had replaced all the cab windows with laminated safety glass but they managed to break these too.
Malc.

[Murphy Siding]

What possessed you guys to pick an ALCo as a preservation project?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f

Simon,

Can I ask what colour you intend repainting the ALCO?

I can recall seeing them during the 15 months between July, 1969, and September, 1970, that I spent at BSC Port Talbot (in my "Sandwich Year" out of University), at that time they were in British Steel Corporation's blue house colour.

The pre 1967 nationalisation Steel Company of Wales, on the other hand, painted locos in a dark red not unlike EWS's present red, with the usual wasp markings to aid visibility.

Any clues??

Martin

Martin,

Do you have any photos from your time at Port Talbot? We have B&W pics of 804 as delivered at Schenectady in US RR pre modified condition. I always wandered when they were painted BSC Blue. I have a pic of oneof the BSC S1's in blue in 1965 (if the caption is right) but I've never seen a pic of them with wasp stripes in red either.

If you have ANY info on the Port Talbot S1's that would help us, please pass it on to Simon. We'd love to meet you on one of the meeting days if you can make it.

Cheers
Michael Ratledge
Co-founder and Chairman
UK ALCo Group

[Anonymous]

Simon Reed is quite right, the Tay bridge was built by the North British Railway of Edinburgh, and the Forth Bridge was built by the Forth Bridge Company. The shares of which were split 30% NBR, 32.5% Midland, 18.75% each for the GNR and NER. The Midland, GNR and NER being the NBR's conection into England. The inland route via Falkirk, Camelon, Perth was owned by the Caledonian Railway of Glasgow, and to say the North British and Caley disliked each other is an understatement. Before the Great War rather than acept the competition had a beter route, the Caley ran services from Princess Street station in Edinburgh via Perth to Aberdeen. While the NBR ran an Aberdeen - Glasgow services with the through Aberdeen Glasgow coaches coming of the main Aberdeen Edinburgh express at Dalmeny Jnt just south of Inverkeithing.

[Overmod]

Hate to say this, but he didn't 'redeem' himself; Belah was near the start, not the end, of his career IIRC. (Thank heaven we still have Podgill!)

I do agree that most of his work is good... but I can't help breathing a sigh of great relief, having seen his drawings for the proposed Forth bridge (for which the contract had actually been let!) that his version wasn't built...

[Simon Reed]

I can probably answer that one for Townsend, and the simple answer is competition.

In the age of railway mania, money and engineering feats were secondary considerations to expedience. If you could move your commodity from, in this instance, Dundee to all points South faster than your potential competitors then the investment in a bridge was entirely justified.

This holds true in most of the Western World. Think, for instance, of the astonishing engineering feats attained in getting competing railroads to the West Coast of the USA.

To revert to the unfortunate Thomas Bouch, it's worth remembering that he was also the engineer on the NER's Stainmore road. This route carried extremely heavy traffic - coking coal from the Durham Coalfields to the iron and steel works in North Lancashire and Cumberland, and included the massive Belah Viaduct.

When the route was closed and dismantled in the 1960's the demolition of Bouch's Belah Viaduct was beyond any of the demolition contractors of the day because it was so substantial and remote, so eventually the Army were called in to remove it.

He redeemed himself with that one, I'd say.

[Murphy Siding]

Townsend: I guess this part that isn't clear to me. At the time the Tay Bridge was proposed,why was the expence of building a major bridge seen as a better investment than putting that same money into a well built line *around* the water? Was the deciding factor simply to cut running time? Or was the terrain *around* the water too formidable, that a bridge was the better option? Thanks

[Anonymous]

The rail-boat-rail-boat-rail link was started in the late 1840's. The lines in Fife were used as a trunk line even before the bridges were built, however it was still built up peicemeal. Several of the main intermediate stations all seem to be at the bottom of steep grades or on a sharp grade. The section from Camelon near Falkirk to Perth was joint and the North British could hand over through carridges from the south to the Highland for Inverness and the Caledonian for Aberdeen at Perth.

[Simon Reed]

The ALCo will probably go into BSC blue, although there's the possibility of it carrying a sponsor's livery during restoration.

The original red was applied by Schenectady prior to delivery. We're pretty certain it's actually Lehigh Valley red; this is'nt as daft as it sounds as Lehigh Valley received a "one-off" S1 in 1949.

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed


For UK viewers - we'll be doing some work on the ALCo S1 at Peterborough on Feb 25th, Mar 11th and Apr 1st. We're also making these days a "meet the loco" event so you can have a look at what we have to do, talk to us about what we're going to do and ideally join the UK ALCo Group.

Fun begins at 12.00 on Feb 25th, and 10.00 on the other two days. Bring your own tools!

Simon,

Can I ask what colour you intend repainting the ALCO?

I can recall seeing them during the 15 months between July, 1969, and September, 1970, that I spent at BSC Port Talbot (in my "Sandwich Year" out of University), at that time they were in British Steel Corporation's blue house colour.

The pre 1967 nationalisation Steel Company of Wales, on the other hand, painted locos in a dark red not unlike EWS's present red, with the usual wasp markings to aid visibility.

Any clues??

Martin

[Tulyar15]

I think the lines were already there before the bridge was built. Thomas Bouch also built the first roll on roll off ferry so that the trains could run straight on to the ferry and off again on the other side, to minimise transit time.

Some of the girders from the original Tay Bridge were re-used on the replacement bridge. I think Bouch was let down by several factors:-

a) under estimating maximum wind speeds
b) some of the materials being sub-standard
c) after it opened Bouch recommended trains should observe a 20mph speed limit over the bridge. But before it fell down there were regular reports of trains exceeding 60mph on the bridge and odd nuts and bolts coming loose without anyone getting very worried!

[Murphy Siding]

Townsend: Was the rail-through connection there before the bridge was built, or was the bridge built as part of the original line?
Thanks

[Anonymous]

With respect to the Tay Bridge that is sort of my patch as i work in network rail train planning and Scotland is my area. The average time for an Edinburgh Aberdeen service is 2'40'' with Dundee near as spit halfway. If you went Dundee - Perth - Ladybank you would probably add 30 min to the journey if not more and Ladybank Perth is a LONG single track section that would kill capacety (?). I dont know what the time would be Edinburgh - Stirling - Perth - Dundee - Aberdeen, but i would not be suprised if it came out at 3'30'' or more and that would mean the car would just slaughter the railway. The private car was not on the scene when the Forth and Tay bridges were built, but tourist passenger traffic to the Highlands was a lucrative market to be in. The Caledonian Railway conected with the LNWR at Carlisle and could run via Motherwell - Mossend - Stirling - Perth - Montrose - Aberdeen. The North British Railway connected with the NER at Berwick and before the opening of the bridges the route was Edinburgh - South Queensferry, boat to North Queensferry, train across Fife, boat across the Firth of Tay, train Dundee - Aberdeen.

[Overmod]

Tay Bridge disaster:

IIRC at least some of the failure was due to the shockingly bad quality of the castings themselves -- google on "Beaumont Egg" for some of the awful details, and if memory serves there was a problem with sulfur as well. Where I thought Bouch had the problem was (not having seen the Open University program) in grossly undercalculating the effect of wind load on the lattice 'high girders' -- seems to me that both the fact of tension and the lever arm of the high (and not-well-laterally-braced) lattices led to the failure. Exactly what were the moments due to the train's passage (according to the program's analysis) that actually induced the 'discontinuities' in the cast-iron leading to failure? (I would suspect it was general vibration with crystallization/stress raisers at some of the ... er, voids ... covered up by the casting firm...

It is NOT just the "engineer" who 'got it wrong' in this case, although it is definitely possible that the high girders would have fallen at some time even if the castings were perfect. One has to feel sorry for poor Thomas Bouch, who died a broken man within just a few months of the disaster...

[Hugh Jampton]

It's not always about time. Cost is the big factor. When designing the route the designers look at the cost of the bridge vs the cost of building an extra 20-30 miles of railway. Whichever is cheaper gets the job.

there was an Open University program on the Tay Bridge disaster. It was very interesting. The crux of it ISTR was that the bridge designers had used integral lugs cast with the columns. As it turns out cast iron is not very good in tension, and the designers of the time never accounted for the dynamic loading from the trains and the wind which caused tensile loads on the lugs (the struts were fine as they were wrought iron which is OK in tension). The lugs suffered fatigue failures and the whole mess came down. Sadly, when Engineers get it wrong people end up dead.

[Murphy Siding]

Simon: You missed your calling-you should have been some sort of railroad passenger route inspector. But then,you wouldn't have gotten to see as many different miles of track as you have as a railfan.[;)]

All: A question about the Tay Bridge. According to the Rail Atlas, the Tay bridge looks like it only cuts off about 20-30 miles of rail distance(Ladybank>Dundee verses Ladybank>Perth>Dundee). It would seem that building the bridge (twice) would only cut out less than an hour of running time on through trains. Am I seeing that correctly, was a great price paid to shave a little time out of a run?
Thanks

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost
[
Not had the pleasure of 071's climbing out of Cork, but the pair of Irish GM 141's I travelled behind recently from Athlone to Ballina brought back memories of double-headed 25's quite well....[:)]

Ah now - double headed 25's - what memories!

I'm going across the water to Ireland in April for an Iri***raction Group railtour. The ITG have preserved examples of most early Irish diesel locos and organise two trips a year. The ITG trips usually start from Dublin with a pick up at Dun Laoghaire as a lot of Brit railfans come across on the ferry to participate. This tour is going into N. Ireland and will be formed of two of the soon to be withdrawn NIR Diesel Electric MU's. These units, built by British Rail at Derby in 1977 are a diesel electric version of the BR cl 310 EMUs and are powered by the same type of engine as the BR Southern Region DEMUs ("Thumpers").

On the way back from Holyhead I shall also do the Llangollen Railway's steam gala weekend.

[Simon Reed]

Because I was at Waverley and saw a chance to get a Deltic in, but did'nt have much time before I needed to head South.

I had 47404 back to Waverley according to my very elderly notes.

For UK viewers - we'll be doing some work on the ALCo S1 at Peterborough on Feb 25th, Mar 11th and Apr 1st. We're also making these days a "meet the loco" event so you can have a look at what we have to do, talk to us about what we're going to do and ideally join the UK ALCo Group.

Fun begins at 12.00 on Feb 25th, and 10.00 on the other two days. Bring your own tools!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

I only ever had one mainline Deltic - 19 - and embarrasingly I had it Waverley - Haymarket!

Murphy - keep that book open at the Edinburgh page to see why I'm embarrased.

Why only the mile-or-so trip? Did you change trains at both ends?

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Waverley doesn't seem to be marked on the map

Ah, It's just called 'Edinburgh' on the OPC Rail Atlas. Originally there were two main stations in Edinburgh - Waverley and Princes Street - but the latter closed years ago and all trains now use Waverley.

Tony

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Irish Rail's GM 071 class could do passable Deltic impressions, though.

Immediately outside Cork Station is a long tunnel with a fairly steep climb and 071's sounded incredible through that.

Incidentally - for those who got involved in the "how good are GM's really?" debate on here a little while ago there's an interesting article on 57's in this months Railway Magazine.

Not had the pleasure of 071's climbing out of Cork, but the pair of Irish GM 141's I travelled behind recently from Athlone to Ballina brought back memories of double-headed 25's quite well....[:)]

I was also enjoying this - http://www.railmedia.de/rm_cd2e.htm - the other night, wonderful Alco music in echoey stations......just make you've got the house to yourself and turn it up LOUD.

Tony

(for Murphy Siding's benefit - the 141's are basically EMD switchers mechanically but with European-style double cabs - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_141_Class - so we're talking EMD 8-567 noise x 2 !)

There is a regional railroad, Dakota & Iowa, that runs a rock train through my town every day. In the afternoon, the mile-long train of empty gondolas climbs a big hill 1/2 mile from my office. The train is pulled by 6 or 7 old, recycled Geeps. I can hear the steady rumble of the engines. I'm sure this gives a similar sound.[:)]

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Edinburgh Waverley to Haymarket = 1 mile and a bit.

The real Deltic men were doing 10,000+ per loco. 1000 is considered respectable.

I never considered myself a Deltic man - too young, and brought up in the wrong place.

Maybe those 4 missing posts are in Haymarket Tunnel....

OK, now I get it. Waverlley doesn't seem to be marked on the map. Now, I really like studying maps, but I'm more used to looking at maps with elevation contours. According to this book,Great Britain appears to be as flat as a [;)]pancake.

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Irish Rail's GM 071 class could do passable Deltic impressions, though.

Immediately outside Cork Station is a long tunnel with a fairly steep climb and 071's sounded incredible through that.

Incidentally - for those who got involved in the "how good are GM's really?" debate on here a little while ago there's an interesting article on 57's in this months Railway Magazine.

Not had the pleasure of 071's climbing out of Cork, but the pair of Irish GM 141's I travelled behind recently from Athlone to Ballina brought back memories of double-headed 25's quite well....[:)]

I was also enjoying this - http://www.railmedia.de/rm_cd2e.htm - the other night, wonderful Alco music in echoey stations......just make you've got the house to yourself and turn it up LOUD.

Tony

(for Murphy Siding's benefit - the 141's are basically EMD switchers mechanically but with European-style double cabs - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIE_141_Class - so we're talking EMD 8-567 noise x 2 !)

[Simon Reed]

Edinburgh Waverley to Haymarket = 1 mile and a bit.

The real Deltic men were doing 10,000+ per loco. 1000 is considered respectable.

I never considered myself a Deltic man - too young, and brought up in the wrong place.

Maybe those 4 missing posts are in Haymarket Tunnel....

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

There are 4 more actal posts on this thread than what it says on the index page.. Should we alert Mystery Inc. or get Detective C.D. on the case..

((((( Don't tell futuremodal, Dave would be sure to blame the BNSF for the oversight )))).[:)]

.

[Hugh Jampton]

There are 4 more actal posts on this thread than what it says on the index page.. Should we alert Mystery Inc. or get Detective C.D. on the case..

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

I only ever had one mainline Deltic - 19 - and embarrasingly I had it Waverley - Haymarket!

Murphy - keep that book open at the Edinburgh page to see why I'm embarrased.

Simon: I'm looking for clues, but I'm not seeing it?

OK Murphy, I'll help you out. First of all, find Edinburgh Waverley station on the Edinburgh page. Then look a little to the left.....