I am no authority on the subject, but my understanding is- The use of buffer wagons between the locomotive and wagons carrying explosive/flammable/corrosive loads has been mandatery here in UK and across Europe for over 60 years. The container tank shown in the video is a non hazmat load, otherwise the above rules would apply. Special measures have to be taken with these containing hazardous loads wherever they are used.
In the days of loose coupled trains with gaurds vans, the same rules would apply, such vehicles would be fitted or continuously braked stock at head of the train.
John Baker
Not all tank cars carry HAZMAT in the US. I have no idea if the tank pictured behind the Freightliner engine contains HAZMAT.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
EDiT; To clarify: I realize that all tanks are not necessarily carrying Haz Mat, but how are hazardous materials place in the trains? Are containerized tanks and tank cars required to be placed away from train crews? How are hazardous materials handled withing the consists of trains?
Sure, and enjoy your railfan heaven, you lucky Brits!
Is there anybody out there???
John Bakeer Sam, I had my tongue firmly into my cheek when I mentioned the 'shed'. When BR was dieselising (and making a hash of it) we hard line steamers called the diesels 'sheds'. I am a keen fan of US railroading and I did recognise the P42. Sometimes our steamers are run in top and tail mode with a class 37 or larger to provide HEP for A/C and heating, plus back up or a driving position on lines lacking turn around facilities. All current TOC rolling stock is unequipped for steam heating. There are a number of (preserved) rakes of carraige stock that are allowed to run on the main line. As I understand there is no provision for controlling the diesel from the Locomotive footplate. Although I can no longer have a model rail road, I still have a couple of loco's left over in N and HO, UP Big Boy X4005 and a lonely HO DD40AX.
Sam, I had my tongue firmly into my cheek when I mentioned the 'shed'. When BR was dieselising (and making a hash of it) we hard line steamers called the diesels 'sheds'. I am a keen fan of US railroading and I did recognise the P42. Sometimes our steamers are run in top and tail mode with a class 37 or larger to provide HEP for A/C and heating, plus back up or a driving position on lines lacking turn around facilities. All current TOC rolling stock is unequipped for steam heating. There are a number of (preserved) rakes of carraige stock that are allowed to run on the main line. As I understand there is no provision for controlling the diesel from the Locomotive footplate.
Although I can no longer have a model rail road, I still have a couple of loco's left over in N and HO, UP Big Boy X4005 and a lonely HO DD40AX.
John:
Calling a GE 'Genesis' style diesel, a'SHED" is probably a much kinder name (although, a very apt descriptor!) than they have been called since their inception here, by railfans, and crews, alike.
The SP 4449 of Doyle Mc Cormack, and both the UP 844, and 3985 are equiped with cab controls to operate an additional diesel locomotive in their train by the MU'ing of control cables, although, I believe that the trains being pulled are well within each locomotives capabilities, the diesels are added to insure power in the event of a steam engine failure en route.
This link to a forum on Railroad.net that contains links, photographs, and conversations about the Multiple Unit capabilities and some photos of the auxiliary cables needed to accomplish the control of the diesels following the steam locomotives. http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=57510
John;
Since the railroad that is allowing the 4449 to operate on it, they require assurance( usually an AMTRAK Genesis P-42) that can recover the train, if it gets out on their line and something breaks, they can haul it someplace and fix it, without blocking theng up for a long time. [ The english equivalent would be the MG midget owner who keeps a wrecker drivers phone number handy so he is not delayed when the MG midget breaks down.] Don't think that the 4449 has EVER gone down on the road.
On the other hand, 844 and 3985 are OWNED by UP Railroad and runs mainly on their tracks ( except in 1992 when they loaded the 3985 to CSX to power their Cloinchfield Santa Train) for a short time.
The UNION PACIFIC's Steam Crew never leaves home without preparation, and the tools to make sure they can fix most any problem out on the road, that might cause an operational problem for the Railroad. I think if they have a problem that can't be fixed on the road, I think Steve Lee just shoots the responsible partty.
They also often run with an insurance policy (in the video that great hulking yellow beast, 6935, a DDX40, running behind the water tender(s) can get them out of trouble, they can control it from the Cab of the seamers with an auxiliary control stand IIRC.
Really liked #4449 videos, running like a Swiss watch, but what was that grey shed behind the last tender?
Just checked the first video.....What great sound on it......!
Quentin
John Bakeer On my way home from the Grapes last night (about 2030) I heard a steamer heading north on the WCML through Stockport (light engine I think) sounded like a 2 cylinder machine. Going really well. I'm not sure that I am up to this pasting lark. I can't even hang wall paper.
On my way home from the Grapes last night (about 2030) I heard a steamer heading north on the WCML through Stockport (light engine I think) sounded like a 2 cylinder machine. Going really well.
I'm not sure that I am up to this pasting lark. I can't even hang wall paper.
By George!
I believe He's got it!
John; If somebody says "hang wallpaper" RUN!
[ It's not up on my list of things I ever like to get to do, either!]
John: I know how you English like a steam engine with a little color, so here's some of SP's 4449 running hard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U2EWXLRlX0&feature=channel
Enjoy!
blue streak 1 John sometimes it is better to write a post as a word document then paste the doc to your post. That way you have a copy if something does not go right.
John sometimes it is better to write a post as a word document then paste the doc to your post. That way you have a copy if something does not go right.
Johnny
***!!!
It's deleted my post-----------------AGAIN!!!
John Baker I tried to answer the Q about support cars, but this blasted machine sneezed and deleted my post!!! It's a matter of size. The UK is 850X140 miles, we have heavy machne facilities within easy reach, our largest steamers are no more than half a Challenger, the single coach behind our Loco's can accommodate the tools of a light running shed plus space for some staff. Tornado lost 150 fire box stays due partly to freqent heating and cooling causing expansion problems coupled with welded construction against the original boilers being riveted which allowed more abuse. I hope this helps?
I tried to answer the Q about support cars, but this blasted machine sneezed and deleted my post!!! It's a matter of size. The UK is 850X140 miles, we have heavy machne facilities within easy reach, our largest steamers are no more than half a Challenger, the single coach behind our Loco's can accommodate the tools of a light running shed plus space for some staff.
Tornado lost 150 fire box stays due partly to freqent heating and cooling causing expansion problems coupled with welded construction against the original boilers being riveted which allowed more abuse.
I hope this helps?
Thanks, John;
Appreciate the response, and more than anything, I can appreciate the idiosyncrasies of computers, and how they can glytch at the most inoportune times.
Never having been to the UK, it is difficult to grasp the scale of distances involved moving and traveling about the UK. My only fram of reference is experiences here.
In 1992, the Union Pacific sent the Challenger 3985 to pull the Clinchfield Railroad's 25 Anniversary Santa Train in Southeastern Kentucky to the Bristol, Tennessee area. The UP's Steam Locomotives are domociled in Cheyenne,Wyoming and that one trip is probably, roughly 1,000 miles, which would roughly, equate to about 1610 km one way ( of course double for R/T). These are very rough figures due to the routes taken, which are different for each leg of the trip.
The 844 was recently (2009) on a trip from Cheyenne to South Texas which was probably something a little over 2000 miles (3200km.+,-) So they move the train with a car ( boxcar) of parts and a car equiped as a machine shop, a car with a steam generator to keep the boiler hot- or to ease the start up after a shut down)
LINKED HERE IS ARE VIDEOS of UP 844 on its' 'Valley Eagle' (tour in 2009 over some former Missouri Pacific territory):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdhZ1oWi5h0
(and here as well) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg2kanM2Kqk&feature=channel
Here is 844 with DDX40 6936 in tow running hard linked here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klVf2jmHxks&feature=channel
Here is a link to UP's Web site: http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/excurs/index.shtml
This was the reason I, originally, was questioning about the support car.
And the the end of July; The Railfan Community received the news that the Norfolk Southern R R was going to reincarnate its Steam Program that had been thought gone. True the The N&W (J-class, a 4-8-4 Northern type, and the 1218 an articulated Y6b are still in Museum status) is going to partner with the Tennesse Valley Railroad Museum to bring back three former Southern Railway locomotives. Linked here to the NS RR's website (media) :
http://www.nscorp.com/nscportal/nscorp/Media/News%20Releases/2010/steam-to-ride-the-NS-rails-again.html
FTL; "...June 30, 2010
"NORFOLK, VA., and CHATTANOOGA, TENN. – Norfolk Southern Corporation is in negotiations with the Tennessee Valley Railroad Museum with regard to the operation of a limited schedule of steam locomotive event appearances and passenger excursions beginning later this year..."
Tornado lost 150 fire box stays due partly to freqent heating and cooling causing expansion problems coupled with welded costruction against the original boilers being rivetted which allowed more abuse.
John: Thanks for the magazine link!
http://www.railwayherald.org/imaging.centre/showimage.php?image=158114&gallery=X3
This link is to the UK Steam Locomotive "Duke of Gloucester" and indicates it has a 'support car' .
My questions are what kind of support does a support car in the UK offer?
Is it mechanical?
Souveniers?
Or a ride for the supporting staff?
In this country the major force in Steam Fan Trips and Company Offered Rides is of course, the Union Pacific with their Heavy 'Northern' #844 (a 4-8-4) and it's companion 'Challenger'#3985 ( a 2-6-6-4).
They will make extended trips throughout the Union Pacific's system and usually travel with a large and capable crew of support staff as well as a highly competent mechanical staff. The train usually includes :
*the "Art Lockman" tool car, ( virtually a machine shop on wheels plus parts inventory)
*the "Howard Fogg" boiler-dorm car, ( the steam boiler keeps the locomotive'Warm")
This was the train for the "Oklahoma Centenial Sooner Rocket and was pulled by the 844. They also have available a GPS feature when the train is out on the system that updates frequently its location for tracking purposes.
http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/releases/heritage_and_steam/2007/0905_sooner.shtml
This links tgo the Uprr website, with links, and information about the Steam operations.
Apparently, both Vale of Rheidol and Mt Snowdon cog are still in business and have websites. From what I gather, Mt. Snowdon is mostly diesel now but still runs some steam, and while a diesel has invaded Vale of Rheidol, most operatons are still behind steam.
The following list has been compiled from two British websites. I tried to eliminate duplication and removal of all that do not operate steam nor intend to do so. I would appreciate any corrections or additions you may have. This is not for publication. But obviouly all Forum members can use it privately. Mount Snowdon cog railway seems missing. Does it now use only diesels? What happened to the Vale of Rhydol? Isn't there a steam operation on the Isle of Man?
Steam Standard Gauge in Britain
* Keighley & Worth Valley Railway - The Keighley and Worth Valley Railway in West Yorkshire, north east England runs steam trains 5-miles up the Worth Valley to Haworth and Oxenhope
* Dartmoor Railway. Devon. "The 15 mile Dartmoor Railway climbs 600 feet from the Tarka Line, near Coleford through Okehampton Station and onwards to Meldon, high on the flank of Dartmoor."
* Tanfield Railway "Preserving railway heritage on the worlds oldest existing railway" Yorkshire
Great Western The Heritage Railway, on which I am a volunteer, changed its name recently. A survey was done last year amongst the traveling fare paying public and the name they chose, by a great majority, was 'Dartmouth Steam Railway and River Boat Company'. This name, it is felt, more reflects the companies operations as not only are steam trains operated but sea and river vessels together with local bus services. Whilst a being a Heritage Railway, in parts, it is also one of the larger tourist attractions of The English Riviera and South Hams parts of Devon. Originally the Company re-opened and ran the ex Great Western Railway/BR branch from Totnes to Buckfastleigh and was known as the Dart Valley Railway but became the South Devon Railway when it was leased from Dart Valley Railway and the DVR wished to concentrate its operations on the Paignton to Kingswear section of line which was purchased from BR. This line was not part of the major UK branch closures. The terminus at Kingswear (known as Kingswear for Dartmouth - Dartmouth being on the opposite bank of the River Dart. Dartmouth railway station still exists but as a privately owned restaurant. The station had the distinction of being the only English railway station without any rails. The main features of the line are the generally acknowledged beautiful scenery. The line climbs from just above sea level at Paignton up to 198ft. asl at Churston. The views on this section afford views of Torbay and Lyme Bay. From Churston the line drops down to sea/river level at Kingswear passing through ancient woodlands and five views of the River Dart. Motive power is mainly steam ; Two 2-8-0T tank engines Nos. 4277 and 5239 - very powerful locos, originally built to haul coal trains in South Wales, Two 4-6-0 tender engines - 7827 Lydham Manor and 75014 Braveheart (undergoing major overhaul) Two 2-6-2T tank engines, 4555 and 4588. 4555 was bought direct from BR and was never part of a scrapping program. She is not operational but will be used as a static display when Paignton station has been rebuilt. This loco is an iconic loco for the railway. 4588 is for sale. These locos were once more than suitable for the railways operations able to comfortably haul up to 8 cars but as passenger numbers have steadily increased over the years, frequently 10 and 11 cars ( sometimes up to 13 cars on quite stiff grades) the ten wheels and 2-8-0T are necessary. http://www.dartmouthrailriver.co.uk/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-OwWcIbebk&playnext_from=TL&videos=If8IzXzPkMQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--kf3N9-0TQ&playnext_from=TL&videos=7ckY0oMByUk [ EDIT Note: Copied above to activate the included links!]
The Heritage Railway, on which I am a volunteer, changed its name recently. A survey was done last year amongst the traveling fare paying public and the name they chose, by a great majority, was 'Dartmouth Steam Railway and River Boat Company'. This name, it is felt, more reflects the companies operations as not only are steam trains operated but sea and river vessels together with local bus services.
Whilst a being a Heritage Railway, in parts, it is also one of the larger tourist attractions of The English Riviera and South Hams parts of Devon.
Originally the Company re-opened and ran the ex Great Western Railway/BR branch from Totnes to Buckfastleigh and was known as the Dart Valley Railway but became the South Devon Railway when it was leased from Dart Valley Railway and the DVR wished to concentrate its operations on the Paignton to Kingswear section of line which was purchased from BR. This line was not part of the major UK branch closures.
The terminus at Kingswear (known as Kingswear for Dartmouth - Dartmouth being on the opposite bank of the River Dart. Dartmouth railway station still exists but as a privately owned restaurant. The station had the distinction of being the only English railway station without any rails.
The main features of the line are the generally acknowledged beautiful scenery. The line climbs from just above sea level at Paignton up to 198ft. asl at Churston. The views on this section afford views of Torbay and Lyme Bay. From Churston the line drops down to sea/river level at Kingswear passing through ancient woodlands and five views of the River Dart.
Motive power is mainly steam ;
Two 2-8-0T tank engines Nos. 4277 and 5239 - very powerful locos, originally built to haul coal trains in South Wales,
Two 4-6-0 tender engines - 7827 Lydham Manor and 75014 Braveheart (undergoing major overhaul)
Two 2-6-2T tank engines, 4555 and 4588. 4555 was bought direct from BR and was never part of a scrapping program. She is not operational but will be used as a static display when Paignton station has been rebuilt. This loco is an iconic loco for the railway. 4588 is for sale. These locos were once more than suitable for the railways operations able to comfortably haul up to 8 cars but as passenger numbers have steadily increased over the years, frequently 10 and 11 cars ( sometimes up to 13 cars on quite stiff grades) the ten wheels and 2-8-0T are necessary.
http://www.dartmouthrailriver.co.uk/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-OwWcIbebk&playnext_from=TL&videos=If8IzXzPkMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--kf3N9-0TQ&playnext_from=TL&videos=7ckY0oMByUk
[ EDIT Note: Copied above to activate the included links!]
John Baker Had mentioned earlier something in this thread about the NYMR,and it's goings on.
There was actually a recent thread I had started in reference to some Bridge Repairs on the NYMR and while do ing some research found some interesting linls at this TRAINS Forum Location:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/175480.aspx
It actually got started with a posting about an accident in Scotland involving a DP two car set that had wrecked and gone down a bank next to a loch. The photo's showed an imense crane handling the cars up and out of their resting point and onto trucks to be moved back to repairs,
Thread linked ( from the Thread by Keith Bathgate) here: http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/175358.aspx
Turned out the Crane was a 1000Ton German-built motor crane, and the Owner(Ainscough(?) had some linked photos of it, in greater detail. It was pretty impressive! Then another Forum member (Carnej1) posted a link to another Railroad -Specific crane called a KIROW, apparently, there are none of them in the STATES, but pretty common in England and European Countries (the Mfg lists over 5,000 of them sold ). Which led to some YouTube videos of a Kirow crane being used on the NYMR to replace a Bridge.
"So now you have got the rest of the story"
Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad
https://www.buckfast.org.uk/
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)
My SKYPE name - 'Bloodnock2'.
Oh! The class 70 (Ugly Duckling), A fine example of the US theorum-design and build a crap loco-where's a gormless mug?-Brit's will buy anything-OK! that's got rid of that. I have noticed that the wick in their engines have a habit of going out. AAH! Tornado, You just light a fire in it and it goes like stink, this fellow won't die if a two amp fuse blows.-The class 57s (47 rebuilds) are worse than their predecessors.
I must say I like the colour changes going about-a bit like pre 1923 when someone noticed we had too many railway Cos and forced a merger leaving just four.- History repeating itself methinks?
Now we have a Tory led government, we will see a repeat of the 70s/80s when they flogged off all the good stuff to their cronies in the city and left the mess for the next lot to clear up.
I notice 'Skytrex' have released an '0' gauge class 55 named 'Tulyar #9015' - reminds me of someone?
Thanks, Cogloadreturns!
That was certainly, a well rounded report of goings on in you neck of the woods!
Are there any reports of how this new class of locomotives is being recieved by those having to operate them? From the first pictures, they seem to be some ugly and certainly ungainly looking critters.
I always thought that the majority of English motive power was, for looks, balanced and no too bad to look at. Not to mention capable of preforming the tasks for which they were built. The steam engines are in a class by themselves, and certainly photogenic while working, or sittling still.
From your report, with all the corporate entity and name changing going on there, I'd guess the painters will be hard pressed to keep up with the redecoration and logo changes.
samfp1943 Welcome Back! Thought this thread had gone away for good. It has always been an interesting read! I would be curious to know what the reaction in the UK is to the new G.E. "Powerhaul" locomotives. Thanks. Here's a link to get started with: http://www.freightlineraustralia.com.au/filelibrary/PDFs/2009.09.16%20Update%20on%20Freightliner%E2%80%99s%20new%20PowerHaul%20locomotives.pdf Here is also a link to a Railway Gazette article with photo and Video: http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/10/freightliner-powerhaul-locomotives-ready-for-testing.html
Welcome Back! Thought this thread had gone away for good. It has always been an interesting read!
I would be curious to know what the reaction in the UK is to the new G.E. "Powerhaul" locomotives.
Thanks.
Here's a link to get started with: http://www.freightlineraustralia.com.au/filelibrary/PDFs/2009.09.16%20Update%20on%20Freightliner%E2%80%99s%20new%20PowerHaul%20locomotives.pdf
Here is also a link to a Railway Gazette article with photo and Video:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/10/freightliner-powerhaul-locomotives-ready-for-testing.html
The Freightliner 5 are currently on test around the country on various services, notably the coal route from Portbury on the Bristol Channel (SW England) to Rugeley Power station in the Midlands. A trip of around 100 odd miles as the trains are sent via the Marches line (Newport, Abergavenny, Hereford and Shrewsbury) before turning right at Abbey and then to Rugeley. The Marches route which threads the Welsh borders (i.e. the March and home of the Marcher Lords who played a pivotal role in English and Welsh history), is a lovely run, especially the Aber - Shrewsbury section.
In other British Railways news, the system is slowly being renationalised as operators are being purchased by Foreign operators who have strong ties to the national government. In fact, it could be claimed that all four railfreight operators are now in the hands of the evil non entreprenurial, non risk taking, taxpayer funded, bloated state sector whoe productivity is so poor etc etc etc. These being DBS (ex EWS - Deutsche Bahn), Freightliner (Arcapita - strong ties to the Bahraini Royal Family), DRS (owner, ultimately the British taxpayer) and now that GB Rail Freight have been flogged to Eurotunnel we have the French involved as there are strong rumours of a tie up between them and Colas.
The Passenger operations are going the same way as Deutsche Bundesbahn has gobbled up Chiltern and now Arriva. Farce group (sorry First) are in severe fiscal stress, Stagecoach aren't much better with our Brian calling for vertical integration (ho ho) and the coalition government looking toward VI and longer franchises as a model...first on the chopper Merseyrail. The network in Britain's only mythical city is fairly self contained although there are long held plans to export carhub stealing, shellsuits and mop haired folk muttering "calm down" to the Welsh via the Wrexham - Bidston link. What that line actually needs are two curves of the North Wales Main, one north, one south so a Chester - Bidston - Liverpool - Chester circular can be run.......
Along with this there are plans (subject to a vote) to give the Welsh assembly more powers (good idea) and to implement Kalman for further decentralisation to Scotland. The Scots already fund Network Rail and have an excellent record of investing, especially in the central belt between Edinburgh and Glasgow. Look for the 4th link between Airdrie and Bathgate to be opened later this year (running about 3mths late but after that winter - pretty good going). Other reopened lines are the northern half of the famed Waverley (from Edinburgh to Galashields) as well as others reported here (Alloa). The Welsh government would dearly like to have the same clout (their passenger rail funding is still under Whitehall dictat) but the local councils have a long and proud history of investing in lines and services especially in the South Wales Valleys. The devastating effects of closing the pits and the Steelworks without reference to the longterm has been ameliorated to some extent by improving the transport links south to Cardiff, but it is an area that is still suffering.
As for England. Pah.
Thank you for the links, John!
and as a quid pro quo : http://www.upsteam.com/ Here is a photo of UP RR's 3985
and here is a link to a UP exhibit, seldom seen in print: http://www.upsteam.com/minialbum/comm_l_069.html ( Can be viewed sequentially)
Sure wish there was more steam running around here, sadly not the case now.
Try http://www.nymr.co.uk/ where you will find they are doing well but as always needing funds (don't we all).
Glad to see there is still some interest in this thread.
Try this free on line magazine foe an insight on UK trains today.
http://www.railwayherald.co.uk
How are things these days on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
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