British Railway Operations

[mhurley87f]

Those who have followed this thread along it's long and tortuous journey may recall that I was involved in an attempt to resurrect an ALCo S1 at Railworld, Peterborough.

For various reasons this project was abandoned.

To recap, Five ALCo S1's were imported to the UK in 1949/50 to work in the Port Talbot Steelworks complex. They were retired in the early 1980's and three of them (801,803 and 804) entered preservation.

The historical signifance of these loco's cannot be overlooked - other than the few prototypes built by the LMS and SR these were the first big diesel loco's to operate in the UK, and predated large scale dieselisation in the UK by ten years.

It could be argued that their longevity and robustness was an indictment of the step missed by British Railways in failing to look to the established US market when embarking upon their scattergun dieselisation process.

Certainly they were the only US built standard gauge diesels in the UK until the "59's" arrived in 1986.

The good news is that some of those who were involved with me in the Peterborough project have now bought one of the other three - 801. The loco is shortly to be moved to Longhoughton, Northumberland and it's long term home is proposed to be the Aln Valley Railway.

It's owners have every intention of restoring it to operational condition as time and resources allow.

Should anyone want any more information please contact me. Although I have no share in the loco I have every intention of assisting the owners in any way I can, because I'd love to hear a McIntosh and Seymour 539 chugging through Northumbria!    

Good to know that the preservation of one of the Steel Company of Wales's ALCOs is still on the cards.

SCoW deserves credit not only for its judicious choice of ALCOs for its heaviest duties, but also for adopting the very best aspects of US diesel depot design for its modest servicing and maintenance shop, which design was the forerunner of British Railways' brand new Modernisation Plan Diesel Depots. 

P.S. British Railways weren't against importing diesels from the US per se, the country just didn't have the foreign exchange to pay for it. At that time, we were heavily in hock for the cost of WW2, and we didn't qualify for aid under the Marshall Plan!!

Hwyl,

Martin 

 

 

 

[John Bakeer]

I sympathise with Simon over the S1, it probably is the only standard gauge US deisel in the country and if for nothing else it is worthy of salvation. There are a number of US steamers built to European standards supplied during WW2 that are still around, but I am not aware of any that were built for the US Rail Roads being imported.

When I had a model railway layout, I had a Trix model of the S1 and a very attractive little [by US standards] loco' it was.

[Simon Reed]

Those who have followed this thread along it's long and tortuous journey may recall that I was involved in an attempt to resurrect an ALCo S1 at Railworld, Peterborough.

For various reasons this project was abandoned.

To recap, Five ALCo S1's were imported to the UK in 1949/50 to work in the Port Talbot Steelworks complex. They were retired in the early 1980's and three of them (801,803 and 804) entered preservation.

The historical signifance of these loco's cannot be overlooked - other than the few prototypes built by the LMS and SR these were the first big diesel loco's to operate in the UK, and predated large scale dieselisation in the UK by ten years.

It could be argued that their longevity and robustness was an indictment of the step missed by British Railways in failing to look to the established US market when embarking upon their scattergun dieselisation process.

Certainly they were the only US built standard gauge diesels in the UK until the "59's" arrived in 1986.

The good news is that some of those who were involved with me in the Peterborough project have now bought one of the other three - 801. The loco is shortly to be moved to Longhoughton, Northumberland and it's long term home is proposed to be the Aln Valley Railway.

It's owners have every intention of restoring it to operational condition as time and resources allow.

Should anyone want any more information please contact me. Although I have no share in the loco I have every intention of assisting the owners in any way I can, because I'd love to hear a McIntosh and Seymour 539 chugging through Northumbria!    

[John Bakeer]

Nice to see Tornado in steam.  

[Tulyar15]

I went to Bristol last night. On the way my train overtook 60 076 on a west bound empty merry go round coal train held in Oldfield Park loop, on the outskirts of Bath.

[John Bakeer]

Me and my big mouth!

RH is in my inbox....... HOOORAYYYY!

[John Bakeer]

Nice to see someone posting.

RailwayHerald has failed to appear this week.

Hope all is well? I will miss it very much if it has winked up? The web site is still functioning.

[Tulyar15]

I've returned from my holiday in Ireland and a few of my pics are on nwwrail.org.uk. I was blessed with good weather and managed to photograph most of the surviving semaphore signals on the Cork - Cobh (pronounced "Cove") line and at Limerick Junction. (If that station were in England, they'd have re-named it Tipperary Parkway by now as the real reason half the Dublin - Cork trains stop there is it's not a very long way from the county town!).

As far as locos go, I only saw members of Iarnrod Eireann's newest class, the EMD 201's apart from an EMD 076 #086 at Limerick Junction.


My onluy disappointment in Ireland was travelling 80 miles from where I stayed (Cork) to Tralee only to find the Tralee Steam Railway was not running, despite being told in the Tourist Information Office that it was running - see my comments at nwwrail.org.uk! .



I went to the Gloucester Warwickshire Railway's gala and was disappointed that SR 4-6-0 "Lord Nelson" was not running; I gather this loco has now gone to the Great Central Railway at Leicester. Still I got all the other locos for haulage and had a footplate ride on GWR 4-6-0 "Foremarke Hall" (a sister engine to the loco used in the Harry Potter movies!).

I've also visited the Mid Norfolk Railway and the East Anglian Transport Museum at Lowestoft - the latter has working trams and trolleybuses and a short 2' gauge line, diesel worked. The MNR is also diesel worked - my train was top and tailed by a 31 and a 20. It has lots of diesels - examples of classes 20, 31, 37, 47, 50, and 56 plus several DMU's and a Souther Region 3rd rail Motor Luggage Van (MLV) which can run on its batteries!

[cogloadreturns]

Well to bring news up to date:

 Network Rails funding looks like being cut by 30% in the next control period

The govt (cynically) and Network Rail are planning 5 high speed new lines (flying pig alert) after Fat Gordon got lambasted in the commons and the press took exception to the insistence of Whitehall that the future was diesel powered; if not bionic duckweed. The announcement over the new lines came a day after the Office of Rail regulation boss took aim and fired the howitizer in a speech lambasting short term planning; he hit the bulls eye.

The Scots Govt is building new lines like it's going out of fashion; Stirling - Alloa - Longannet (£40m over budget) for passenger and coal traffic; the Waverley (going ahead and Lord alone knows what the final total will be) to Tweedbank; Glasgow Airport Rail link (£220m and climbing); Edinburgh Trams (great to stand on Princes street and not be covered in bus fumes); Bathgate - Airdrie (£300m and wired - 4 routes from Glasgow - Edinburgh)  and hints of reopening the Leven route and possibly St Andrews (to help those golfers).

The Welsh government have reopened the route from Newport - Ebbw Vale after the tinplate and steel works shut, however trains are currently going to Cardiff as the signalling cant cope.

In Engerlund - nothing reopened. The WCML route modernisation is still rumbling on; late. NR are hoping that the final tranche (Trent Valley 4 tracking and Rugby) will be open for the December 2009 timetable change. In Cogloads part of the world there is the beginnings of the monster resignalling project which will see Reading, Slough Old/ New, Swindon A/B, Oxford and Westbury Panels shut and placed in a new signalling centre at Didcot. Plus £200m spent on various lines so that clearances are ready for 9"6 boxes without thrutching hell out of the track.

Cogload has recently returned from New Zealand and would thoroughly recommend a ride on the three long distance trains left; the Overlander, The Tranzalpine (Arthurs Pass) and the TranzCoastal (Picton/ Christchurch). The NZ govt have recently renationalised the railway system after it was flogged in the 80's and asset stripped.  

[Tulyar15]

Well the only airports I'm likely to be flying to/from in the near future are Birmingham and Cork. I've now booked a holiday in Cork so that I can photograph the Cork - Cobh (pronounced "cove") line and Limerick Junction before they get re-signalled in the fall of this year.

Meanwhile I'm also off to Suffolk, and hope to visit the East Anglian Transport Museum near Lowestoft, (http://www.eatm.org.uk/), the Mid Norfolk Railway (http://www.mnr.org.uk) and Bressingham Museum. (http://www.bressingham.co.uk). If I get to visit the latter, then at last I'll the standard gauge Beyer-Garratt.

[cogloadreturns]

Those taking advantage of any Open Skies deals and flying into Edinburgh be sure to look for the start of the new tram being built...in 3yrs time we maybe able to stand on Princes Street and not be run over by thousands of buses.

Good news that this is now well under way. The SG seems to be a touch more enlightened when it comes to railways than the administration down south..... 

[Tulyar15]

My brother tells me he's now scanned in all his 2000 slides which date back to 1970, and he hopes to put more on his webiste soon at www.roscalen.com/signals

I visited the Mid Hants Railway a couple of Sundays ago and was delighted to see #60019 'Bittern' running. The weather was good and I got some good photos.

[Tulyar15]

I believe Platform 5 Publishing have taken on the job of publishing a printed copy of the National Rail Timetable. Not sure of their web address but their details are on the page listed below:-

http://www.applegate.co.uk/company/11/96/679.htm

Meanwhile during the festive season my brother has scanned in some slides he took of the two Lincoln station in 1983 before St. Marks station was closed that year:-

http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Lincoln/index.htm

There are still semaphore signals at Lincoln Central train (now just called "Lincoln") but they are due to be replaced this year.

On the Avon Valley Railway we've sold our 8F 2-8-0 to the guy who owns the two US Army 2-8-0's on the Churnet Valley Railway.

Happy New Year everyone!

[RudyRockvilleMD]

Thanks for the explanations about the East Coast Mainline train operating company franchise, Railtrack, and the National Rail Timetable. I was sorry to see that the National Rail Timetable was discontinued since it listed the schedules of all of the passenger trains in Great Britain plus the Eurostar services and tourist railroad lines; it was very useful for visiting railfans although its thickness might have made it a little cumbersome to carry around.   

[John Bakeer]

Cogload,

 Just taken up Railway Herald subscription, it looks like a good way to keep up without the fluff.

[cogloadreturns]

My wife and I took a side trip to Scotland on our return from a cruise down the Danube to Budapest, and she let me off the leash to do some railfanning for one day. My visit brings up a few questions.  

I was not aware of a significant change in one of the train operating franchises until recently; The Great NorthEastern Railway is out as the train operating company for the East Coast Mainline, and National Express (East Coast Trains) is in. Great NorthEastern Railway held the East Coast Mainline train operating franchise from the begining of privatization, why did that train operating franchise change hands? Who owned Great NorthEastern Railway? Did the high speed derailment of a Great NorthEastern Railway London-Leeds train north of London in 2000 have any influence on changing the East Coast Mainline train operating franchise?

When I asked the Edinburgh Waverly Station security about photographing trains in the station they told me it was ok to take pictures from the station platforms but not not to take any pictures of the entrances to the station. Did they mean the places where people or taxi's enter or leave the station, or does that also include the tracks leading into or out of the station, for example, the east end of the station throat?

The new infrastructure operator is now Network Rail, what happened to RailTrack? did it declare bankruptcy? 

I tried to buy a copy of the Network Rail 2007-2008 National Rail Timetable while I was in Edinburgh. I tried the W.H. Smith shop in Edinburgh Waverly station, but they didn't have it. Next I tried the railroad information counter in the Edinburgh Waverly Station, and the clerk told me Network Rail no longer publishes the timetable for sale to the public. He said something about it being too large. Did Network Rail actually stop publishing the National Rail Timetable for sale to the public? If so, why?

 

Answer to your questions. GNER (previous franchise holder) was a subsidiary of Sea Containers which went bust. They bid and received the franchise roughly 18mths - 2 yrs ago but then found that due to a combination of factors (the July 7th bombings being a major one) that they could not pay back the Treasury the premiums demanded for the franchise. So they handed they handed the keys in and the franchise was relet to National Express who are paying an even more Kamikaze premium profile and the economy is slowing...rapidly. Hatfield did have an influence on the previous franchisee but because it was a track fault on behalf of the infrastructure operator GNER managed (eventually and after much negotiation) to strike a deal in regards to damages.

I have no ideas re: photography - leave that to others.

Railtrack was placed into railway administration and this has been covered on this thread. The railways (operating) income in the days of Failtrack was decided by an independant regulator for a control period of 5(?) years. So a regulator trying to second guess what the cash requirements for an operating railway were - good system! And whatever the regulator decided the government had to pay...even better system! Anyway after a series of unfortunate events - Hatfield, the Heavens opening, internal inefficency of the system, serious cash burn, the way initial contracts had been decided.....Railtrack kept on going back and asking for more. I think the straw which broke the Camels back was that Railtrack paid a divi to its shareholders not long after asking the govt for a bail out (apparently to keep access open to the capital markets) so HMG pushed the company into "railway administration". As a result a not for dividend company was formed (Network Rail) and as it is backed by govt debt and garuntee the infrastructure owner and operator has been, to all intents and purposes, renationalised.

The National Railway Timetable published by NR has now been discontinued - however it can be found on Network Rail's website as a download. The reason for the discontinuation was due to rising costs and falling sales. However "private" versions have sprung up and these can be purchased.

Incidentally anybody stateside with an interest in the modern railway scene over here - can I recommend a free downloadable weekly (almost) mag - www.railwayherald.co.uk - will keep you up to date.  

 

[RudyRockvilleMD]

My wife and I took a side trip to Scotland on our return from a cruise down the Danube to Budapest, and she let me off the leash to do some railfanning for one day. My visit brings up a few questions.  

I was not aware of a significant change in one of the train operating franchises until recently; The Great NorthEastern Railway is out as the train operating company for the East Coast Mainline, and National Express (East Coast Trains) is in. Great NorthEastern Railway held the East Coast Mainline train operating franchise from the begining of privatization, why did that train operating franchise change hands? Who owned Great NorthEastern Railway? Did the high speed derailment of a Great NorthEastern Railway London-Leeds train north of London in 2000 have any influence on changing the East Coast Mainline train operating franchise?

When I asked the Edinburgh Waverly Station security about photographing trains in the station they told me it was ok to take pictures from the station platforms but not not to take any pictures of the entrances to the station. Did they mean the places where people or taxi's enter or leave the station, or does that also include the tracks leading into or out of the station, for example, the east end of the station throat?

The new infrastructure operator is now Network Rail, what happened to RailTrack? did it declare bankruptcy? 

I tried to buy a copy of the Network Rail 2007-2008 National Rail Timetable while I was in Edinburgh. I tried the W.H. Smith shop in Edinburgh Waverly station, but they didn't have it. Next I tried the railroad information counter in the Edinburgh Waverly Station, and the clerk told me Network Rail no longer publishes the timetable for sale to the public. He said something about it being too large. Did Network Rail actually stop publishing the National Rail Timetable for sale to the public? If so, why?

[Tulyar15]

Metro,

 To answer your questions:-

 1) I think your are right - I dont think there are any external differences between class 08 and 09 shunters.

 2) The Western Region diesel hydraulics were withdrawn after short lives because they constituted no more than 14% of the diesel fleet and with the decision to extend the electrification of the West Coast Main line northwards from Crewe to Glasgow in 1970 and the improving reliability of other diesel electric classes they became surplus to requirements. The 600hp D9500 class were sold on to industrial railways, both coal and steel, and many remained in use on these systems until the mid 1980s. (A few were even re-gauged to 5' 6" and exported to Spain!)

 Happy New Year to everyone!

[METRO]

Ah I think I finally may have found a place to get my British Rail questions answered!

One that I have been thinking about for a while, were there any external differences between the Class 08 and Class 09 shunters, or was the re-gearing the only change?

Also what was the reasoning behind the removal of the diesel-hydraulics from the Western Region in such short order?

Cheers!

~METRO 

[Simon Reed]

Thought you'd like that one!

Yes, if it's underlined I've enjoyed it. I think once you start going through the book you'll realise there's a few more than a dozen or so!

Working tomorrow, then straight out to our neighbours New Year party. We'll be home by midnight to settle the dogs (who dislike fireworks) and have our own little Joni Mitchell moment.

In other words my last post until 2008, so happy new year to all!

Norris - you've got a message.  

[Murphy Siding]

     Simon- I recieved the book you sent me a couple of days ago.  Thank you very much.  You are correct it (Preserved Locomotives of British Railways) is the kind of book I enjoy, technical data, and some illustrations, a good escape book.  I note that you've underlined a dozen or more names.  Are those locomotives you have ridden behind.

     Thanks again.  I consider myself to be fortunate, to have friends on the other side of the globe.

-Norris

[Tulyar15]

The Welshpool and Llanfair have also got a Kitson Meyer articulated loco, but it's out of ticket.

Cool, I am a big fan of them. Which one do they have?

The W & L Meyer is called "Monarch" and is an 0-4-4-0 which formerly ran on the Sittingbourne & Kemsley line in KEnt. There are some picturs on the W & L site at http://www.wllr.org.uk/news.htm
(see July 23rd).

Going back to the LNER Garratt, at the weekend I found my book about the Lickey Incline, where the it spent its final years, by the late H. C. Casserley, a noted UK railfan. On one occassion when Casserley had gone to Bromsgrove to photograph the Garratt in action, he was lucky enough to see a northbound freight train arrive hauled by one of the LMS 2-6-0 + 0-6-2 Garratt's (these only occassionaly ran on that line). What a picture he thought he would get if it would be banked by the LNER Garratt. Sure enough, #69999 came off shed and buffered up to the rear of the train. Off they went, up the Lickey (1 in 37 or 2.7% if you prefer). But despite having two Garratts and 10 cylinders to shift it the train stalled half way up the bank. Guess who came to the rescue - the real Lickey Banker #58100 (unofficially known as "Big Bertha"). For many years this 4 cylinder 0-10-0 was the only 10 coupled loco in Britain. One she buffered up the train re-started and made it to the top - with 14 cylinders in all!

[MStLfan]

The Welshpool and Llanfair have also got a Kitson Meyer articulated loco, but it's out of ticket.

Cool, I am a big fan of them. Which one do they have?

One other country in Europe where you can see Garratts is Spain.

In the 80's and early 90's there was a South African narrow gauge (=2 ft) garratt on the Schinznacher Baumschule. That is a tree nursery in Schinznach, Switzerland, which was open to the public. Not sure if they stille have it.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[John Bakeer]

The only minor point to add to a well covered subject (thank you Tulyar and Owlsroost) is that EWS is now owned by the Germans DAB.

[Tulyar15]

There were a few Garratts in Britain. In addition to the LNER 2-8-0 + 0-8-2, which was a one off, the LMS had a class of about 30 2-6-0 + 0-6-2's. These were built in the 1920'safter a proposed class of 2-10-0's was vetoed as they would have been too heavy. Ironically the LMS Garratts remained in service up to the 1950's when they were replaced the BR Class 9 2-10-0's which had an even lower axle weight! None were preserved, but a very small standard gauge 0-4-0 + 0-4-0 which worked on a colliery line in Warwickshire survives at Bressingham Museum in Norfolk. It was one of four such locos built for industrial servce.

K1, the very first Garratt of all, was re-imported by its makes in 1947 and when they went bust in 1965 it was bought by the Ffestiniog Railway. It was too big to fit their restricted loading gauge, but has now been restored for use on the neighbouring Welsh Highland Railway (see www.festrail.co.uk), who have also imported a number of 2-6-2 + 2-6-2 Garratts from S. Africa. So with the FR's double Fairlies and the WHR's Mallett's Wales is the place to go in Britain to see articulated locos in action. (The Welshpool and Llanfair have also got a Kitson Meyer articulated loco, but it's out of ticket!).

One other country in Europe where you can see Garratts is Spain. On their broafd gauge (5' 6") main lines there were two classes of Garratts; a passenger 4-6-2 + 2-6-4 class and a freight class of 2-8-2 + 2-8-2's. One of the latter survives and is kept in working order for railfan specials. The 3' 6" gauge Rio Tinto (near Seville) line also has a Garratt; it was the only one on that line but I believe is a standard S. African class. It is not currently in working order but survives along with all of that lines locos.

[Murphy Siding]

     I came accross a photo in a book, of a "London & North Eastern Railway Garratt U1-class locomotive No.2395".  I've never seen anything about Beyer-Garratts in Great Britain itself.  Usually. they are shown on some far off 3rd world railroad, on a narrow gage line.  Where there many in Britain, and were they succesfull there?

[Tulyar15]

With regard to the US Army 2-8-0's, I've just spotted an article on the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway's website which gives a good, concise history of the class:-

http://www.gwsr.com/html/american_invasion.html

[Tulyar15]

Simon, Sorry about your ear problem, I get a similar thing from time to time, caused alternately by wax build up and Robinsons fire water.

Is Gordon in steam?-doubtful! (channel 5 0830 weekdays).

No, he's currently out of ticket at the Severn Valley. I believe he's still Army property.

[Simon Reed]

Murphy - are you keeping up with all this?

Send me your address again and I'll send you a book which will help.

[Tulyar15]

I've got some photos of the Mid Hant's USA 2-8-0. I also photographed the London & South Western T9 4-4-0 when it was there, but did not see it running. I wonder if the MHR will restore it now that the MRM have offered to let anyline who'll restore it have it. Mind you, given all the unrestored locos the Mid Hants have been buying of late, they've probably got their hands full.