Tulyar - can't remember ever having seen a photo of the Mid-Hants USATC, and to my shame and regret I've only been there once. Thanks for your confirmation that it has been in ticket.
I think the loco you recall at Llangollen is the one now at Ruddington. It got there via Ribble Steam Railway.
I also think that the WD 2-10-0 that was at Great Central is now at North Norfolk.
Simon Reed wrote: Well it sems to have finally happened!http://www.freightliner.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?newsid=52GE is breaking into the UK market.I recall that quite a few pages of this monumental thread have been concentrated on the poor build quality and poor adhesion characteristics of the European EMD product and I also recall a debate about the alternatives available.It has long been a disappointment to me that no European operators have chosen to seek a superior product to the EMD offering. Equally disappointing has been the failure of European manufacturers to fully capitalise on the paucity of a high output diesel for EU use. With the impending sale of EWS to DB (still pending EU approval although agreed domestically) this represents an extremely timely breakthrough for GE in the European market and I am exceptionally pleased at this news.A response from Vossloh/Siemens now also must be an inevitability.
Well it sems to have finally happened!
http://www.freightliner.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?newsid=52
GE is breaking into the UK market.
I recall that quite a few pages of this monumental thread have been concentrated on the poor build quality and poor adhesion characteristics of the European EMD product and I also recall a debate about the alternatives available.
It has long been a disappointment to me that no European operators have chosen to seek a superior product to the EMD offering. Equally disappointing has been the failure of European manufacturers to fully capitalise on the paucity of a high output diesel for EU use.
With the impending sale of EWS to DB (still pending EU approval although agreed domestically) this represents an extremely timely breakthrough for GE in the European market and I am exceptionally pleased at this news.
A response from Vossloh/Siemens now also must be an inevitability.
It is not as if the Germans are doing nothing. Vossloh bought a factory in Spain from Alstom (now Vossloh Espana) and they are building diesels there with EMD-engines I believe the brand name is EURO 4000. They use an EMD 16V710 diesel with 4250 hp according to DIN so it something of a disguised SD70.
Further, Voith (of hydrodynamic drive fame) is building prototype 4000 hp diesels in Kiel Germany with the help of ex Vossloh personnel, brand name Maxima, type 40cc. http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-151662978.html
http://www.railcolor.net/
http://www.eurailpress.de/news/news.php3?id=19072
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/diplo/en/WillkommeninD/D-Informationen/Nachrichten/071116-3,navCtx=73442,__page=2.html
http://www.vossloh-espana.com/fs_cms/en/products/diesel-electric_locomotives/euro_4000/EURO_4000.html
I wonder if Siemens will offer an ER30 or something like it with 3000 kW output? Or if Bombardier will offer a diesel with a higher output than 2200 kW?
greetings,
Marc Immeker
Simon, Sorry about your ear problem, I get a similar thing from time to time, caused alternately by wax build up and Robinsons fire water.
Is Gordon in steam?-doubtful! (channel 5 0830 weekdays).
John Baker
John,
"Gordon" (as in Khartoum, not the Big Engine) is at the Severn Valley. I believe it's going into the new museum at Highley.
As I'm laid up at home with an ear infection and have nothing better to do I've been looking at this USATC question in more detail.
The one that's for sale almost certainly appears to be the first one which is now at Great Central Nottingham. Two sources give Schenectady Works number 70284 but the Industrial Railways Society believe it is 70610 of 1943.
I can't find the other Alco - built loco though. Between bouts of spinning head I'll have a better look.
I had a go behind the WD 2-8-0 a few weeks ago. It certainly looks the part although understandably with 34,000 pounds of tractive effort available it was'nt being worked too hard.
There are six USATC 2-8-0's listed in the UK, beside the two Alco frames at Riley's Bury works.
One of these has been advertised for sale recently. I don't know which one but it is listed as "stripped down some parts missing" so I'd guess either the first or the third.
The most numerous class of steam locomotive all of which were built in Britain was not the Riddles designed WD 2-8-0 (935 examples built 1943-45) , but the London and North Western Railway Ramsbottom designed 'DX' class 0-6-0 with 943 built 1858-74 (including 86 for the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway) - none of these survive (last went c 1930).
KWVR have a USATC Lima 2-8-0.
It's certainly worked in preservation but not for a lot of years. With the next projected overhauls being Southern Light Pacific "City of Wells", BR Standard 4 75078 and MR 4F 43924 I can't see work on this Lima being a priority.
KWVR's website is here:-
http://www.kwvr.co.uk/index.htm
but no photo of the Lima, which may be John's mythical beast!
John Bakeer wrote:The mysterious Baldwin (my memory is not clear on this) was an east european WD 2-8-0 which found its way on to the KWVR where the clearance problems showed up.
The mysterious Baldwin (my memory is not clear on this) was an east european WD 2-8-0 which found its way on to the KWVR where the clearance problems showed up.
John Bakeer wrote:Hitatchi are supplying Eurostars for the St Pancras services and I suspect the class 170 DMUs running around the north of england are theirs too.
Hitatchi are supplying Eurostars for the St Pancras services and I suspect the class 170 DMUs running around the north of england are theirs too.
The 168/170 DMUs were built by Adtranz (originally) then Bombardier (at Derby), as were the Voyager/Meridian/Pioneer DEMUs (built in Belgium). The Electrostar EMUs (running on Southern and c2c) were also built at Derby by Bombardier. The 185 DMUs are from Siemens, as are Desiro EMUs. The 175's and 180's DMUs are from Alsthom - who basically blew themselves out of the UK train market with the Juniper/175/180/Pendolino delivery and design/reliability problems.
The 'Javelin' 140mph EMUs (for domestic services on HS1 from Kent) are Hitachi's first trains for the UK, although they've been trying to break into the market for years. These services/trains are nothing to do with Eurostar.
Grand Central were left in the proverbial **** by a British trian maker being unable to deliver on time. GC are currently struggling to find any stock for services originally posted to launch back in May 2007.
Bombardier aren't involved (the only 'train maker' left in the UK - all the others are maintenance/refurbishment companies). Marcroft Engineering (part of EWS) are converting loco hauled MK3's to work with HST power cars being refurbished by DML in Plymouth - both coming from long-term storage and consequently needing a fair amount of work. There was a documentary on BBC TV recently about the Grand Central startup - their Engineering Director wasn't wildly impressed with Marcroft......On the other hand, some of the Grand Central people came across in the documentary as a bit naive about what's involved in going from an idea to actually running trains.
The new Chinese/Tibet RR locos are specially adapted GE/GMs(?) for high altitude service.The passenger stock is pressurised like an aircraft. Our US cousins have purchased or have on order a number of QJ steamers.
They are GE's - there was an item in Trains a while ago about the line.
Tony
Easier said than done Martin,
The (remaining) UK train maker, although complaining of empty order books is incapable of delivering anything right or on time.
Unfortunately I have seen this kind of sick company many times during my long career in engineering that has completely lost its sense of direction, British Leyland comes to mind as a complete basket case that despite herculean efforts was beyond help and had to die.
John Bakeer wrote:<snipped> Hitatchi are supplying Eurostars for the St Pancras services and I suspect the class 170 DMUs running around the north of england are theirs too.
<snipped>
I think the Hitachi built EMUs are going to be called "Javelins" and will be used for local services over the High Speed line.
Grand Central were left in the proverbial **** by a British trian maker being unable to deliver on time. GC are currently struggling to find any stock for services originally posted to launch back in May 2007.The new Chinese/Tibet RR locos are specially adapted GE/GMs(?) for high altitude service.The passenger stock is pressurised like an aircraft. Our US cousins have purchased or have on order a number of QJ steamers.
There are at least two (Baldwin?) USA 0-6-0 tanks on preserved lines (again my memory fails me).
Murphy - I'm no expert on this but I understand that the noise issues experienced by UK engineers on EMD's are more about pitch and frequency than decibels.
To the dismay of UK railfans the EMD's are, externally, far quieter than most of our older home grown stuff but the engineers complaints relate to a constant low register noise.
Once again, I know next to nothing about acoustics so can only report from what I am told.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I know that the European EMD experience bears little resemblance to the models known and loved by North American customers. I had'nt really thought of this as being a symptom of GM's divestment of it's EMD arm; more that the 66 and it's derivates had always been regarded by London as very much a secondary source of revenue and therefore somehow an inferior product.
I've also seen expressions of doubt about the suitability of a Jenbacher power unit in heavy haul rail service. My answer would have to be - why not? 60 years ago where were Paxman, Maybach, Cummins, Deutz etc.? This is evolution, and if the practicalities of fitting a Jenbacher unit within UK gauge outweigh the downsizing of a GEVO let's at least give it a try.
The same arguement goes for the European builders. At present although the UK market is intrinsically constricted it is still the most bouyant, and potentially the biggest diesel market in Western Europe. As Eastern Europe finds its economic feet a demand will establish itself, as evidenced by the rapidly increasing number of open access operators in Poland.
In terms of engineering constraints the advantages afforded by Berne gauge over UK are negligible, so why not build a standard model to UK gauge which would still be amply suitable for Berne gauge Eastern European operations.
That may sound overly jingoistic and parochial. In many cases it is to the UK's great detriment that the Victorian ethos was "we'll do what we want and the rest of the world will just have to keep up with us." Commercially, however, it must make sense for the European manufacturers to create some truly pan-European designs reflecting the conditions of all of their potential customers.
The impending DB purchase of EWS will doubtless greatly influence matters: the negative attitude of HM Government towards European Alliance may cancel this advantage out.
Simon Reed wrote:Happy Thanksgiving US folks!Murphy - the European EMDs are'nt particularly unreliable. They are prone to leaky cabs, excessive vibration and high noise levels for engineers. In leaf fall season they are badly prone to wheelslip. They are also slow on acceleration, which can be a major issue in the more heavily trafficked urban areas of the UK where freight has to be fitted in around intensive and fast commuter service.Beaulieu - a valid point about EMD and GE exporting to China, but would any of us be surprised if this was the last such order? The Chinese will doubtless "clone" them and construct their own versions.China do build their own stock already but it's largely home designed or perhaps borrowing off USSR prototypes. The UK Bus industry has recently had a Chinese model (King Long) demonstrated to them but the take up has been negligible, apparently due largely to it's obsolete (by Western standards) design and engineering. One can only assume that this problem is endemic in their rail development too. Other than WD locos built in the US to UK loading gauge I'm not aware of any US built Standard Gauge steam locos operational in the UK. Ian Riley has a pair of 2-8-0 Alco frames at Bury although as far as I know it's only the frames that he has.On the narrow gauge front, however, Ffestiniog have "Mountaineer", an Alco 2-6-2T which ran for many years as an oil burner.
Happy Thanksgiving US folks!
Murphy - the European EMDs are'nt particularly unreliable.
They are prone to leaky cabs, excessive vibration and high noise levels for engineers. In leaf fall season they are badly prone to wheelslip. They are also slow on acceleration, which can be a major issue in the more heavily trafficked urban areas of the UK where freight has to be fitted in around intensive and fast commuter service.
Beaulieu - a valid point about EMD and GE exporting to China, but would any of us be surprised if this was the last such order? The Chinese will doubtless "clone" them and construct their own versions.
China do build their own stock already but it's largely home designed or perhaps borrowing off USSR prototypes. The UK Bus industry has recently had a Chinese model (King Long) demonstrated to them but the take up has been negligible, apparently due largely to it's obsolete (by Western standards) design and engineering. One can only assume that this problem is endemic in their rail development too.
Other than WD locos built in the US to UK loading gauge I'm not aware of any US built Standard Gauge steam locos operational in the UK. Ian Riley has a pair of 2-8-0 Alco frames at Bury although as far as I know it's only the frames that he has.
On the narrow gauge front, however, Ffestiniog have "Mountaineer", an Alco 2-6-2T which ran for many years as an oil burner.
Simon, only the first handful of each order will be built in the US, after that it will be just the microprocessor controls and certain other bits.
Re: the Class 66 in the UK, the leaky cabs are partially a function of slipping EMD quality control during the time when GM was trying to sell EMD. The vibration unfortunately is common to the 12 cylinder 710 engine, engine speed, number of cylinders, and firing order mean the 12 cylinder engine is exhibits more vibration than the smoother running 16 cylinder engine. Slower acceleration is partially the result of needing to control the engine emissions during throttle up. EMD locomotives were always noted for quick acceleration until the advent of modern emission controls. The higher noise levels are what are found in US locomotives, standard practice to wear earplugs in US locomotives.
I don't know if you saw mention that the GEs would be equipped with diesels manufactured by Jenbacher in Austria (Jenbacher is a GE subsidiary now), these will not be GEVO powered. There was a mention on a European forum that these will push out the remaining Freightliner Class 86 and 90 electrics. Some of the new GEs will be for expansion while others will cause Class 66s to be moved from HeavyHaul to the Intermodal part of the business replacing the electrics.
I wouldn't expect Bombardier, Siemens, Vossloh, or Voith to be interested in the UK business, too small a potential market to engineer a locomotive to fill the business. If Freightliner hadn't ordered 30 locomotives in one batch GE wouldn't have been interested either. Fitting into the restricted UK loading gauge forces a lot of compromises. Except for the SNCF Fret order from Alstom and Vossloh (running late too), there have been no large orders for diesels from any large railroad.
John Beaulieu
Murphy Siding wrote: John- I was thinking more along these lines: Presumably, GE will have to redesign their equipment to work on British loading gauge, the same as EMD had to. At this point, it's already been accepted, to have foreign built units on British rails. That being said, I wondered if China, or some other industrial country with lower production costs might try to enter the market?
If China had the ability to produce capable locomotives why would they be buying 300 new diesel locomotives each from EMD and GE? Also they are buying similar sized quantities of Bombardier and Siemens electric locomotives.
Murphy,
The Chinese are closer to the US loading gauge and would foul just about everything along the track.
The new channel tunnel link and the Central Railway (if it ever opens?) have a generous loading gauge. The mind boggles at the thought of a Chinese puffer going from Bootle to Paris. I remember one of the preserved lines getting its hands on a Baldwin 2-8-0, but it wouldn't go round corners and it knocked lumps off the line side equipment.
I have been a 'Trains' subscriber for over thirty years and have seen the demise of the great names, but from what I can gather, there appears to be little to choose between today's GE and EMD products..A lot of re-builds get Caterpillar power units though.
Interesting....What I find odd, is that on this side of the Atlantic, EMD's are genrally thought of as being more reliable than GE's. (Just from what I read anyway.)
Would a Chinese locomotive ever have a chance in Britain?
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