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British Railway Operations

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, January 21, 2006 10:52 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

OK everyone, as we've strayed into nostalgia a bit (and it might be of interest to vistors to the UK):-

1. What are your favourite stretches of track in Britain from a scenery point of view ?

2. What are (or have been) your favourite journeys in Britain from a railfan perspective (you're allowed to be nostalgic here) ?

My nominations are :-

1. Glasgow - Mallaig, Inverness - Kyle of Lochalsh and Exeter - Newton Abbott

2. Glasgow - Mallaig and Inverness - Kyle of Lochalsh loco hauled behind a class 37, and very fast blast up the West Coast main line behind an 86 on a Birmingham - Edinburgh excursion once - it arrived 90 minutes early.....

Tony

I'm all for hearing about your favorite scenery & journeys, but you'll have to provide a little more detail, if you could. IF there were passenger trains in my area, the view would be cornfields and cornfields.

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Posted by devils on Saturday, January 21, 2006 12:23 PM
in response to mhuley87
No real bankers left, we only do that for special reasons now. One of the steam special departures from Victoria (London) is sometimes booked to have a class 73 banking for a short distance but with strict instructions that if contact with the train is lost that it doesn't re-engage. Apart from that it would only be if a train failed and requested assistance from the rear. We prefer to put the assisting loco on the front, it's safer and we can run at linespeed.
You may see trains top and tailed but only to avoid run rounds or to release an engine at the terminating point. HST doesn't count as it is a semi fixed set!
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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 21, 2006 7:59 AM
I'd have to put in a plug for the Heart of Wales line on the scenery front, too bad we get those ghastly 153s instead of the old 1st generation types - I only managed to ride the older DMUs on a couple of occasions. There was talk last year of the TOC buying a few 1st gen units but nothing came of it - I think the preservation groups who now own most of the survivors were put off by the fact that the TOC wanted to buy the units outright and alter the interiors.
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Posted by owlsroost on Friday, January 20, 2006 5:40 PM
OK everyone, as we've strayed into nostalgia a bit (and it might be of interest to vistors to the UK):-

1. What are your favourite stretches of track in Britain from a scenery point of view ?

2. What are (or have been) your favourite journeys in Britain from a railfan perspective (you're allowed to be nostalgic here) ?

My nominations are :-

1. Glasgow - Mallaig, Inverness - Kyle of Lochalsh and Exeter - Newton Abbott

2. Glasgow - Mallaig and Inverness - Kyle of Lochalsh loco hauled behind a class 37, and very fast blast up the West Coast main line behind an 86 on a Birmingham - Edinburgh excursion once - it arrived 90 minutes early.....

Tony
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Posted by owlsroost on Friday, January 20, 2006 2:06 PM
Pretty much - switching costs money, the distances are short and very few factories have spurs for freight cars these days, so there isn't much demand for 'manifest' freight trains in the UK.

Tony

(and freight cars sitting around in yards generally aren't earning money because they aren't moving - so why would you want to have intermediate switching anyway if you could possibly avoid it ?)
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, January 20, 2006 1:07 PM
I found a neat book,North American Railyards, written by a Brit,Michaael Rhodes. He notes that North America has more than 60 hump classification yards, noting that Britain closed the last of it's classification yards in the late 1980's. (The)"United Kingdom railroads moved to predominantly unit trains and intermodal services." Is that an accurate picture of the situation? That would mean that every train movement is from point a to point b,without yards full of train cars?
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Posted by owlsroost on Friday, January 20, 2006 9:13 AM
QUOTE: I've had a little ride out on the rails around West Yorkshire today and was reflecting on how bland the UK railway scene is even compared to 20 years ago, when I first came to University in the area.

I think the same about modern music, compared to what I was dancing about to in the 80's


Have to agree with you - I was a student at Bradford University from 1976-1980 (after experiencing my first ever loco failure on the way to the interview !). This was the punk-rock era, which certainly shook British music up - even if some of the bands around at the time were best listened to with earplugs in....

As for the trains, there were Deltics to King's Cross, 'power twin' DMUs on the Bradford Interchange - Leeds locals, 'Peaks' on the NE/SW trains (it wasn't called 'Intercity CrossCountry' then), 40's on Liverpool-Newcastle etc. If you were interested in stations and signalling, across the Pennines at Manchester Victoria there was a wonderous array of colour lights and power-operated semaphores - all gone now but at least the huge tiled L&Y route map is still around.

That said, although it's got less 'characterful' for the enthusaist, the passenger services in general have improved considerably on many routes - the core Leeds-Manchester 'Transpennine' service is a case in point - a 40 + Mk1's was never a competitive option versus the M62 motorway - OK, it's DMU's now but it's faster and more frequent. It's the same story in Cambridge - in the 25 years I've lived here, the off-peak service to London has gone from one diesel loco hauled through train per hour plus DMU shuttles to the ends of the electric services from London (Royston/Bishops Stortford), to six through electric trains per hour (2 to LS, 4 to KX) - a huge improvement for the average passenger.

Tony
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Posted by mhurley87f on Friday, January 20, 2006 4:23 AM
QUOTE:

No, Network Rail trai planning. BTW came across what is probably the slowest goods train in Britain. Wieghs in at 1700 ton and takes 38 minutes to climb Beatock, 10 miles of 1 in 75 is. In Briti***erms that is probably about as rough as it gets. It aint no Sherman Hill or Raton.


T

Are Bankers still deployed in the UK (Lickey, Beattock)?? If so, do they stay there all week, or Monday to Friday, day, or is it only for the passage of the trains needing assistance?

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Posted by Simon Reed on Friday, January 20, 2006 3:19 AM
Murphy - there's very little passenger track that I have'nt travelled in the UK - Ardrossan Harbour and Westbury Avoider are the only two bits of Network Rail in the edition of the atlas I've sent, although there's now the Larkhall branch near Motherwell, and DLR's airport extension.

I've also travelled, as you'll note, on a good deal of freight only routes courtesy of railtours and diversions.

I've "done" all of the passenger track in Ireland and Luxembourg, 90% of Portugal, Switzerland and Austria and by the end of March I'll have finished off Belgium and Holland.

Yes, I'll own to being a bit obsessive but I have a well-paid job, 34 days paid leave a year and an understanding partner with her own time-consuming hobby (horses).
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Posted by Tulyar15 on Friday, January 20, 2006 2:26 AM
I seem to have lost my previous post, but musically I like classical, folk and rock. I found my CD of "Coronation Scot" last night. My other all time favourite train music tracks include the "Titfield Thunderbold Theme" and "Pacific 2-3-12 by Honegger, an early 20th century French composer.

I agree with Simon Reed about the rail scene being bland in the UK to-day. The one thing that adds a bit of interest in seeing preserved diesel and steam locos on the main line.

Incidentally a day rover ticket in the West Midlands (Birmingham, Coventry and Wolverhampton) costs £4.50. It covers all trains buses and trams. In S. Wales the Valley Day Rover has been extended to cover the newly re-opened Barry - Bridgend line and the Bridgend Maesteg line; also the main line between Cardiff and Maesteg.
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, January 19, 2006 10:17 PM
Simon: I received your package today! Many thanks. 'Haven't had much time to dig in deep yet, but you pretty well covered my interests in railroads, history, and maps! I notice a lot of orange marking in the rail atlas. You seem to have tried to travel on every stretch of track in Great Britain?

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 19, 2006 5:08 PM
And Falmouth in Cogload country is the 2nd deepest deep water Harbour in EUROPE!

Towns - I work for the Evil Empire as well. Interesting gossip from the sticks - we are getting our loop at Penryn and a half hourly service down the Falmouth Branch as well. European Objective One funding apparently. However I am of an age to only believe these things when the shovels start a digging.

Music subtext: Enigma Variations by Sir Edward Elgar. London Phil...not sure who is conducting. Will check.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:51 PM
Originally posted by cogload

Townsend you work for EWS then?

No, Network Rail trai planning. BTW came across what is probably the slowest goods train in Britain. Wieghs in at 1700 ton and takes 38 minutes to climb Beatock, 10 miles of 1 in 75 is. In Briti***erms that is probably about as rough as it gets. It aint no Sherman Hill or Raton.
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Posted by Simon Reed on Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:38 PM
I've had a little ride out on the rails around West Yorkshire today and was reflecting on how bland the UK railway scene is even compared to 20 years ago, when I first came to University in the area.

I think the same about modern music, compared to what I was dancing about to in the 80's.

One thing that has'nt changed is the the West Yorkshire day rover is still incredible value. I can't remember how much it was in 1985 but now it's £4.50 (about $7) for unlimited train and bus travel in West Yorkshire after 09.30.
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, January 19, 2006 1:01 PM
Interesting thing about railroad interests as a hobby: it's so varied that there is something for everyone's tastes. Music works the same way.

Subtext: The music that was popular when I was in college, used to be on *classic rock* radio stations. Now, it's starting to show up on the *oldies* radio stations. My kids are sure that I'm turning into an old fart. Somehow the radio industry isn't helping my case.[:)]

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, January 19, 2006 4:05 AM
The Bach St. Mathew Passion and my Friday Night Kiddush over wine, yes.

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Posted by Tulyar15 on Thursday, January 19, 2006 2:28 AM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Townsend

In Briti***rain planning some peoples view of goods trains range from bad tempered tolleration to outright loathing. Leith - Cockenzie trains are on the ECML for about 5 miles, that can be lived with, but when you are trying to path a coal train out of Hunterston going to Drax, through Paisley, across the West Coast Main Line at Polmadie, round the Edinburgh sub and down the East Coast Main Line to be handed over North Eastern zone at Berwick to be told it has been rejected because it clashes with a train near York, you start to think do we realy need this traffic and would it not be better to land it at Hull.

After that rant the most productive frieght trains in terms of ease of planning and utilisation of resources tend to be MGR, Freightliners and nominated freights (like mgr but not just minerals). Anything else and you are getting back to the possition of Britain being the worlds biggest marshalling yard like it was in the 1950's.
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Posted by Simon Reed on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:29 PM
OK, just contribute to the music subtext.

Music is far more important than Railways is'nt it??
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 4:48 PM
U.S. folks do enjoy reading it. Just don't always understand it.[:)]

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Posted by Simon Reed on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 4:19 PM
Sorry, U.S. folk, but this is turning into a bit of a UK subscribers thread via Wisconsin!

ABP won't invest in ANYTHING unless it's absolutely written in stone. There are actually an incredible number of deep water ports on the West Coast of Britain - Barrow being a good example - with the infrastructure in place for direct ship/rail transhipment.

At present we pay - via HM Government, then to BNFL - for Barrow to be dredged to a fairly restricted draught to let James Fisher's boats in with spent uranium rods.

With a deeper dredge, and some alterations at Carnforth, you could put almost anything in at Barrow and save a day's sailing to Hunterston. Plenty of paths on the Furness, and WCML Carnforth - Crewe at least.

A thumbnail example. The bottom line is a failure to make the left hand understand what the right hand is doing.

Where did the "what are we listening to" subtext go? Currnetly "Hotel San Jose" by Go Go Market, which is basically a Chuck Prophet album with Stephanie Finch vocals. Am I boring you?
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:06 PM
Townsend you work for EWS then?

The answer maybe lack of terminal capacity and a government scared witless that the policy of dash for gas has seen large canards now roosting in the attic and wondering what to do next. It is unlikely that ABP would invest mega cash when nobody knows how many coal fired ps will see the grim repaer over the next 10 years. Besides Scots coal is low in sulphur and there is an enormo seam waiting to be skimmed. Cheaply. As well as the Hunterston stuff.
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Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 2:01 PM
In Briti***rain planning some peoples view of goods trains range from bad tempered tolleration to outright loathing. Leith - Cockenzie trains are on the ECML for about 5 miles, that can be lived with, but when you are trying to path a coal train out of Hunterston going to Drax, through Paisley, across the West Coast Main Line at Polmadie, round the Edinburgh sub and down the East Coast Main Line to be handed over North Eastern zone at Berwick to be told it has been rejected because it clashes with a train near York, you start to think do we realy need this traffic and would it not be better to land it at Hull.

After that rant the most productive frieght trains in terms of ease of planning and utilisation of resources tend to be MGR, Freightliners and nominated freights (like mgr but not just minerals). Anything else and you are getting back to the possition of Britain being the worlds biggest marshalling yard like it was in the 1950's.
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Posted by Tulyar15 on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 1:55 AM
The steel works and scrapyard I mentioned above on the Isle of Sheppey are separate companies that just happen to be close together and are connected by the national network. I assume EWS operates the trains between them.

But the scrapyard also has its own dock for export and import of different scrap metals and this is linked to its yard by its own standard gauge rail line, with its own locos and train crews. The Sheeness steel works can only process certain types of steel so the scrapyard exports the types which the Sheerness plant cannot process and also imports the types it can.
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Posted by Hugh Jampton on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:25 PM
The train equipment is owned by one of the leasing companies who rent it to the train operating companies who also rent train paths from the infrastructure controller to run a service for the generating company is the short unpunctuated answer.
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 12:05 PM
Now, that makes sense. I was thinking([(-D]) a little hard, I'm afraid. There is a little railroad in my city, The Ellis & Eastern, that hauls gravel from a their quarry on the west part of town, to their cement plant on the east side of town-total distance of 4 to 5 miles. In this case, the railroad,quarry and cement plant are owned by the same party.
In the instances cited above, would that be the case? Does the power plant, or steel mill own the train equipment, or is it all contracted out to a third party?
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Posted by Tulyar15 on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:04 AM
Murphy, the other factor against trucks here is that roads are more congested and there is growing opposition to freight being moved by roads. Until recenlty grants were available to encourage firms to invest in rail sidings so they could ship goods by rail instead of truck. It is also hoped that investment in cheaper technology such as these Freigh Multiple Units (FMUs) which were recentrly trialled on timber traffic in Wales will help transfer more traffic to rail. (I gather the Scottish Parliament has given a grant to one of the freight operators to start using these vehicles in Scotland).

Going back to short flows, one of the shortes is on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent. (This is an island in the Thames estuary which is connected to the main land by a road/rail bridge where the central section can be raised to allow ships to pass thru). Steel is shipped by rail from the scrapyard at Queenborough on the island a mere 5 miles to the steelworks at Sheerness, which is the terminus of the branch line which links these places with the main land, joining the former London, Chatham and Dover line at Sittingbourne. The steelworks at Sheerness also receives scrap steel by rail from other scapyards on the mainland. For those who think that the former Southern Region of BR is just an electric tramway with commuter trains, a visit to the Isle of Sheppey will make you think again! In addition to the above plants, the Paper Works at Sittingbourne is served by a siding from the branch too. The branch to Sheerness was electrified in the 1960's as part of the Kent Coast electrification scheme and it has a passenger service too. Except at peak hours on Mon-Fri this just consists of an electric unit shuttling between Sittingbourne and Sheerness, however the last time I visited the latter the terminus still boasted two platforms and a run round loop so locos could run round.

Another short flow is the couple of miles from Newport Dock to Fifoots (formerly Uskmouth) power station. Imported coal is moved between the two and for this short trip a class 08 switcher can do the job!
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Posted by beaulieu on Monday, January 16, 2006 11:08 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

Yes:

One bloke driving - Power Station - Pit - Power Station continuously. High Utilisation in both terms of wagons and locomotives (1). 5 Days a week - Up to 6 trains a day. There is currently a flow out of Leith Docks (Ed) to Cockenzie P.S. which must be all of I dunno 10 miles, if that. 2.5k tonnes per train.....kerrrrrrrchhhiiiiing. Plus if part of the run is on the main (line) Railfreight only had to pay marginal cost on that bit of railway. The key is the weight.

So, if I understand the open access system correctly,the train op company would have to *bid*(?) on the uses of those certain tracks, at thoses certain times,5 days a week, up to 6 trains a day? Also, I'm having trouble visualizing how this train could compete with trucks? Granted, I'm viewing it from an American perspective. Here, anything under about 400 miles goes more economically on a semi-truck. Are Briti***rains that much more efficient than (North)American trains? Or perhaps trucks over here are more efficient? As always, thanks.


Murphy, think how many trucks to shift 15,000 tonnes per day, then think how many drivers that many trucks would require . My quick calculations say 625 round trips per day, figure 12 twelve trips per truck, requires 52 trucks and 52 Drivers. Drivers = $$$$$
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, January 16, 2006 7:30 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

Yes:

One bloke driving - Power Station - Pit - Power Station continuously. High Utilisation in both terms of wagons and locomotives (1). 5 Days a week - Up to 6 trains a day. There is currently a flow out of Leith Docks (Ed) to Cockenzie P.S. which must be all of I dunno 10 miles, if that. 2.5k tonnes per train.....kerrrrrrrchhhiiiiing. Plus if part of the run is on the main (line) Railfreight only had to pay marginal cost on that bit of railway. The key is the weight.

So, if I understand the open access system correctly,the train op company would have to *bid*(?) on the uses of those certain tracks, at thoses certain times,5 days a week, up to 6 trains a day? Also, I'm having trouble visualizing how this train could compete with trucks? Granted, I'm viewing it from an American perspective. Here, anything under about 400 miles goes more economically on a semi-truck. Are Briti***rains that much more efficient than (North)American trains? Or perhaps trucks over here are more efficient? As always, thanks.

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 16, 2006 4:25 PM
Yes:

One bloke driving - Power Station - Pit - Power Station continuously. High Utilisation in both terms of wagons and locomotives (1). 5 Days a week - Up to 6 trains a day. There is currently a flow out of Leith Docks (Ed) to Cockenzie P.S. which must be all of I dunno 10 miles, if that. 2.5k tonnes per train.....kerrrrrrrchhhiiiiing. Plus if part of the run is on the main (line) Railfreight only had to pay marginal cost on that bit of railway. The key is the weight.
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Posted by Murphy Siding on Monday, January 16, 2006 3:34 PM
QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

The commodity that immediately springs to mind is coal.

Here in (cold, rainy) Yorkshire we had until recently the huge Selby pit. Nearly all of it's output was fed underground to a place called Gascoigne Wood (pronounced Gas-coin) then taken by rail to power plants locally - Ferrybridge, Drax and Eggborough. Ferrybridge, without looking it up, would be around 5 miles by rail from Gascoigne Wood, Eggborough perhaps 8.

Another flow was scrap metal from Attercliffe in Sheffield to Aldwarke in Rotherham - 5 miles maximum.

It's all in the "Freightmaster" book that Bealieau sent you. When you get my latest gift it'll get even clearer.

Tonight's "unwind after a bad day with a bottle of Merlot" album is Do It Yourself, by the Seahorses - John Squire at his blistering best!


And the railways can compete with trucks on hauls as short as that? .

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