British Railway Operations

[Simon Reed]

Having read my post, and those leading to it, two thoughts strike me. (Ouch!)

Merry -Go-Round. This was a concept developed in the 1960's under hero/villain Dr Richard Beeching (previously mentioned on this thread) whereby a loco and a string of HAA coal hoppers simply work backwards and forwards between pit and power plant.

On arrival at the pit the loco is put into notch (run) 1 and trundles it's train at low speed under the loader. At the power plant you slow speed your bottom-discharge hoppers over the dump then head back to the pit for another load.

The crew - driver only - could swap out at either end after their 8 hour shift and the only real interruption would be when the loco needed fuel and an exam, or if a hopper got damaged.

I believe that Knottingley men would do three Selby Drift - Eggborough turns in an 8 hour shift. I'm not sure how long the 56's would go without a refuel.

Thought 2 - Attercliffe is'nt just a scrapyard, it's the home of Sharp's, where I buy all of my American HO stuff. If any of the UK contingent on here are into modelling and fancy a trip to Huddersfield this weekend I'll be behind Boldon Junction on it's second last show - after 18 years - before retirement.

[Simon Reed]

The commodity that immediately springs to mind is coal.

Here in (cold, rainy) Yorkshire we had until recently the huge Selby pit. Nearly all of it's output was fed underground to a place called Gascoigne Wood (pronounced Gas-coin) then taken by rail to power plants locally - Ferrybridge, Drax and Eggborough. Ferrybridge, without looking it up, would be around 5 miles by rail from Gascoigne Wood, Eggborough perhaps 8.

Another flow was scrap metal from Attercliffe in Sheffield to Aldwarke in Rotherham - 5 miles maximum.

It's all in the "Freightmaster" book that Bealieau sent you. When you get my latest gift it'll get even clearer.

Tonight's "unwind after a bad day with a bottle of Merlot" album is Do It Yourself, by the Seahorses - John Squire at his blistering best!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload
You can have hauls of less than 10 miles which make cash if the tonnage supports it and the flow is structured properly.

I've been trying to think of what you could haul (legally[;)]) less than 10 miles and make cash?

[Anonymous]

There seems to be plenty of incentive at the minute for companies to obtain nationwide freight licences. I can think of EWS; Freightliner; GBRF; DRS; Jarvis; FM Rail. Plus you have Road Hauliers who just borrow a haulier which W.Malcolm does with DRS out of Grangemouth.

Railfreight did make cash; however it has traditionally been in the heavy industry area where it has made the cash. Coal and the like. The high volume low weight sector has been traditionally the difficult section to make cash. This is not helped by a bias toward the hauliers in terms of weight (though they have had their proposals for 60 and 84 tonne trucks chucked out); and the use of space on a very low marginal cost basis.

You can have hauls of less than 10 miles which make cash if the tonnage supports it and the flow is structured properly.

Album of the Day: A Slight Case of Overbombing by the Sisters of Mercy.

[Murphy Siding]

owlsroost: Thanks for the info. I guess I didn't quite get the concept right in my head. I was thinking of a railroad's ability to expand by way of purchase/mergers of other railroads. Given the open access raiway system, competition from trucks, and something of a history of low profits(?), what is the incentive for a company to get into railroading in Britain? What did Ed Burkhard see in it? Thanks


(worth noting that it does take a certain type of talent to arrange barking dog sounds into a song, and make them seem to belong there[:)])

[owlsroost]

There aren't any 'regional' railfreight operators in the UK - they all have nationwide operating licences/safety cases as far as I know (but the smaller ones don't actually operate everywhere, just where they have business).

Don't forget these aren't railroads in the US sense - they don't own any track, they just own/lease locomotives/freight cars and operate trains, so they are much closer to a trucking company in the way they operate than a traditional railroad (and are all competing directly with each other for business).

Tony

(and yes, I do listen to Chris Rea/The Eagles/Beach Boys etc as well - I chose Pink Floyd because it was the opposite end of the spectrum [:)] - did you see their reunion set at the recent Live 8 concert on TV - superb)

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

QUOTE: If CN didn't spin off EWS when they bought WC, they must have thought it had some potential to either make money, or sell off at a later date, at a profit?

From memory, CN were interested in offloading their share of EWS at the time of the WC takeover but there weren't any takers at a sensible price - so they decided to turn it around first.

QUOTE: Funny, that there wouldn't be a big uproar over foreign ownership of a British railroad, but maybe that just an Americanized perception.

Basically, UK railfreight had been a barely-profitable or money-loosing business for years, so I think most people here reckoned that the consortium led by Ed Burkhardt was the best chance to turn it around (given Ed's track record and enthusiasm).

Tony (reaching for a Pink Floyd album as an antidote to Johnny Cash...)

Is there any advantage for someone with deep pockets(CN) to purchase a few other companies to build a more end-to-end railroad system? Kind of like trying to make short hauls into longer hauls? Or, is that thought completely opposite of how the system was envisioned to work?
Pink Floyd? That would be something of the opposite end of t he spectrum from Johnny Cash. Middle ground might somebody I like to listen to- Chris Rea?
(" I hear the train a comin'. It's a rollin' 'round the bend......")

[germanium]

I can't see any real future for short-haul freight in some areas - where I live (near the South-Western main line) most former freight facilities are now car parks, because of the expanding London commuterland. What is the opinion of others far more knowledgeable than I ?

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: If CN didn't spin off EWS when they bought WC, they must have thought it had some potential to either make money, or sell off at a later date, at a profit?

From memory, CN were interested in offloading their share of EWS at the time of the WC takeover but there weren't any takers at a sensible price - so they decided to turn it around first.

QUOTE: Funny, that there wouldn't be a big uproar over foreign ownership of a British railroad, but maybe that just an Americanized perception.

Basically, UK railfreight had been a barely-profitable or money-loosing business for years, so I think most people here reckoned that the consortium led by Ed Burkhardt was the best chance to turn it around (given Ed's track record and enthusiasm).

Tony (reaching for a Pink Floyd album as an antidote to Johnny Cash...)

[Murphy Siding]

If CN didn't spinn off EWS when they bought WC, they must have thought it had some potential to either make money, or sell off at alater date, at a profit? I do now see what beaulieu says about the SOO line colors. Funny, that there wouldn't be a big uproar over foreign ownership of a British railroad, but maybe that just an Americanized perception.
For what it's worth, I'm a Johnny Cash fan from way back. I failed the bonus question, though-I would have said Rodney Crowell-ex husband of Roseanne Cash, who I'm also a fan of. Now there's a family with a lot of talent.

[Simon Reed]

I'd hinted a while ago that I'd heard rumours about EWS, which basically ran along the lines of flotation, so they could be a more attractive proposition for sale because CN are'nt really interested. What I found a little difficult to concile at the time was that a potentially interested party was said to be a consortium led by Royal Mail. I've since seen this suggestion in print in a reputable broadsheet - The Independent.

Nothing at all wrong with Johnny Cash, my man, although I prefer his one-time son-in-law whom I still consider to be one of the underrated giants of British popular music. His 1984 album "Cowboy Outfit" is one of our most played, especially when Lynne is out and I can dance about to it.

This is'nt a thread for music guessing games! The answer is Nick Lowe.

[Anonymous]

Cogload speaks.....

Tuylar 15 - I am not doubting your affinity or affection for things Irish; nor am I doubting the fact that the Irish are very nice. Indeed; Rugby trips over to Dublin have proven that they are very nice indeed...(hic) However a large majority may raise an eyebrow re: yr comments on sterling (especially as the republic had its own currency for many yrs) and how close they feel to "Britain". Thats all.....:-)

Murphy - EWS was formed by WC and 2 merchant banks (one Boston MA based, the other Geneva Switzerland based); when CN bought WC they ended up with EWS. Although there are hints of a stockmarket flotation for the firm as it is now making some wonga.

As for Franchises - HMG decides on the shape and scope of them. It seems that Merseytravel (thats Liverpool and area) may get its hands back on the rails in that area as an experiment. When they come up for renewal they maybe merged or split with other franchises (i.e. Central and Wessex/Thames and Great Western).

Incidentally if we had the amount of derailments whoich seem to afflict parts of the US network the entire railway would have been shut down by now. AND| finally; off topic but I am listening to Johnny Cash at the min - American IV. Fantastic Stuff - Hurt; Hung My Head and a great cover of the Ewan Macoll (father of the late much missed Kirsty) song "The first Time I Saw your face".

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Interesting-I didn't know that CN owned EWS. I'm surprised it hasn't been *assimilated* with buckets of red paint.[;)]

Murphy, you didn't recognize the old Soo Line paint scheme, with the school colors of the University of Minnesota on the EWS diesels? What other railroads use that scheme, humm? Think Wisconsin Central Ltd. That is how CN came to own a controlling interest in EWS. Ed Burkhardt chose the paint scheme. So every railroad that Ed has been involved in uses that scheme. Montreal, Maine & Atlantic RR
Estee Raudtee (in Estonia) Rail Polska (in Poland). What color scheme does Tranz Rail (New Zealand) use? Ever think you would see that scheme on Russian built diesels?

I knew Ed Burkhardt of WC fame was in on EWS. I guess I just figured he had found some (perhaps British) investors to bankroll the project, and let him run the railroad. Maybe there's a guy who could be tapped to run CN some day?

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Also, up until the 1990's Irish Rail bought its carriages from British makers - examples of BR Mk2 and 3's are still in use though I'm not sure if any of the steam heated Cravens carriages are left.

I travelled in some of the "steam heated Cravens carriages" in October 2005 so they're probably still around, although I suspect only until DMU's replace them on the remaining branch-line duties.

Tony

(Just back from Canada - nice to see Toronto Union Station still has a tower controlling a huge array of dwarf colour light signals [:)] )

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed
[

Tulyar 15. I'm still a member of the ITG and you may have had to put up with my stewarding on various tours in the late 80's and early 90's - when we still need your financial support can you think of a good reason for not still being a member?? E-mail me if there are any issues because I'm still quite involved.

I'm not sure why I lapsed my ITG membership. I certainly enjoyed going on their tours, especially the Sunday outings to industrial and preserved. My late Irish friend used to go on their tours to - that's how I met him. I still get details of their tours as I'm on Pathfinder Tours Mailing list. Perhaps I will re-join.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Interesting-I didn't know that CN owned EWS. I'm surprised it hasn't been *assimilated* with buckets of red paint.[;)]

Murphy, you didn't recognize the old Soo Line paint scheme, with the school colors of the University of Minnesota on the EWS diesels? What other railroads use that scheme, humm? Think Wisconsin Central Ltd. That is how CN came to own a controlling interest in EWS. Ed Burkhardt chose the paint scheme. So every railroad that Ed has been involved in uses that scheme. Montreal, Maine & Atlantic RR
Estee Raudtee (in Estonia) Rail Polska (in Poland). What color scheme does Tranz Rail (New Zealand) use? Ever think you would see that scheme on Russian built diesels?

[Murphy Siding]

Interesting-I didn't know that CN owned EWS. I'm surprised it hasn't been *assimilated* with buckets of red paint.[;)]

[germanium]

Murphy - re mergers - to add to Simon's comments, the rail system for passenger purposes is divided into Franchises for each area, so although a company might have (say) two contiguous franchises, they would be considered as separate entities. It is possible for a company to be stripped of a franchise for poor performance, as happened recently to Connex in the South-East corner of England.

[Simon Reed]

Murphy...
1 - No mergers - the "system" won't allow this.

2 - Some paint schemes are more popular than others here. My personal view is that as long as the trains run effectively and deliver the service they're meant to they could be orange with purple spots as far as I'm concerned.

3 - Network Rail laid out a set of guidelines for photography about this time last year for
it's own staff, enthusiasts and the BTP (our railroad cops.) This seems to have been a well thought out document and has minimised any concerns about security. Britain runs at a far lower level of security alert than the US anyway.

4 - Derailments happen. As I've previously observed on this thread, though, the standards of Maintainence of Way in North America would'nt be considered fit for a served-once-a-month industrial spur in Europe so they're an irregular occurence.

EWS is owned by Canadian National. Cogload will elaborate in his inimitable fashion.

Tulyar 15. I'm still a member of the ITG and you may have had to put up with my stewarding on various tours in the late 80's and early 90's - when we still need your financial support can you think of a good reason for not still being a member?? E-mail me if there are any issues because I'm still quite involved.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload
. When I worked for Canadian National...er...sorry EWS

cogload: A while back, you posted this about CN / EWS, and I wondered what you meant by this. I'm sure it was meant in jest. Were you comparing the operations of the two? Just curious.

Thanks to all posters from accross the pond. You make for some interesting, and different reading on this forum. You must not have as many *issues* with mergers,paint schemes,picture takers,derailments etc....as we seem to have.[;)]

[Tulyar15]

Originally posted by cogload

The Irish regards themselves as almost Britain.....really?

Huummm. Suggest you study history sir!
[/quote

I HAVE studied history (at 'O' Level I did Britain and Ireland 1865 - 1914!) and I have also visited Ireland on numerous occassions (both the North and the Republic). I have always found the people there extremely hospitable. I used to have a friend (alas he passed away last year!) who worked for Iarnrodd Eireann who used to arrange visits for me and a few friend to railway installations. As well as IE ones we visited quite a few obscure peat bog railways as my friend had a few contacts there too.

As for history, if any nation has a right to hate us Brits its the Irish. But I've not found that at all, so they could be the winners of the most forgiving nation on earth prize. Many people from the Republic served in the UK forces during WW2 and many still do - there are still regiments in the UK army that are recruited from all of Ireland.

To-day IE is a well run system - what attracted me to it were the old steam heat passenger cars and MetroVick diesels (albeit re built with EMD engines). I used to be a member of the Iri***raction Group, which has preserved some of these and I have several certificates for the £10's I donated to them. There's still a significant number of loco hauled trains in the Republic while Northern Irleland Railway still keep a couple of loco hauled sets in reserve for major sporting events, especially 6 nations Rugby matches.

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