British Railway Operations

[Tulyar15]

I've seen the MTU enginedd power cars in service a number of times and they are amazingly quiet. Mind you, I've yet to see how they cope with some of the banks west of Exeter.

According to a report in yesterday's "Independant" newspapers FirstGroup are not only putting on extra services on the new Greater Western franchise but they'll be paying a premium to the the government of £100 million per annum. Given that the Wessex services are part of what was the Regional sector of BR (which required subsidy) I shall be interested to see if they manage to achieve their financial targets.

[owlsroost]

Quote from the FGW press release - "Simultaneously the power cars will be overhauled and fitted with new quieter and more environmentally friendly engines which will provide greater efficiency and reliability"

I presume this means fitting the MTU engines currently on trial - haven't seen/heard one of the modified HST power cars in the flesh yet, but everyone says they are very quiet.

Good for passengers, but from a railfan perspective it's a bit unfortunate - the 'head out of the window' noise experience behind a Valenta engined power car accelerating hard is one of the few bits of old style passenger train railfanning it's still possible to enjoy in the UK on normal service trains [8D]

Tony

[daveklepper]

Glad to know the sleeper will still be in operation. Used London - Glascow and London - Manchester in 1962.

[Tulyar15]

I saw their press release on their website yesterday

(http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/home/story.php?item=133&ref=home)

It sounds fairly upbeat - the proposed cuts on the Oxford - Bicester have not taken place and by and large First Group seem to be going for growth. I've e-mailed them to ask whether the Chippenham - Westbury line is also safe as that was proposed for service cuts too. I gather from a friend that the half-hourly Paddington - Cardiff service is also safe (this too was proposed for reduction to hourly).

[Anonymous]

First Group won the FGW franchise. Sleeper saved - fares rising 10% for the next 5 years to pay for it. Fun.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

QUOTE: Given their Route Availability Number of 5, as opposed to that of 8 for the class 67's (default loco for charters nowadays) an HST can not only go places a 67 can't (such as Mallaig, Pwllheli - are you listening charter operators !) but will incur lower access charges.

As far as I know, the problem with using HST's for charters isn't power car Route Availability, it's the C3 profile passenger car clearances - so they can only run on routes cleared for HST/Mk3 running (i.e. their current/old stomping grounds plus approved diversionary routes).

In reality this is most of the system, but I suspect Mallaig and Pwllheli are probably out of reach.

Tony

P.S. Nice photo Hugh [:)]

I am aware of the restrictions on Mk 3 stock but I think they mostly apply to the former Southern Region. This was the reason I believe the idea of using ex Virgin Mk3 on domestic CTRL services was quashed - they're out of the gauge for the former SER lines in Kent. Oddly enough, one of the few places they CAN run there is the Hastings line - when the electrification was inauguarated the Royal Train, which includes Mk 3s in its consist ran over the line. This summer the Royal Train visited the Cambrian main line and was top and tailed by class 67's!.

The class 156 DMU's which are or have been regularly used on both the Cambrian and the Mallaig extension have an identical profile to the Mk3 so as far as I know a loco hauled Mk 3 can go anywhere that a 156 can.

[Anonymous]

Ahhh. The worlds finest diesel passenger train. period. Saved Intercity travel in the Uk and created an entire brand and marketing strategy. The nose cone effect following the sparks effect. Approaching 30yrs old some of those and still the finest piece of kit on britains railways.

[Anonymous]

We still work in £s here - Euroland starts across the Channel or across the Irish Sea. In the current political climate I can't see us adopting the Euro any time soon - there's a lot of very entrenched opposition that won't be swayed by any argument. Looking up the film on IMDB suggests a plotline based on what happened in some Euro-adopting states. Apparently an awful lot was spent on home improvements in France (judging by the massive growth in DIY chains over there in the last few years) to avoid having to declare the Francs stashed under the mattress to the authorities!

I couldn't find out where the filming took place - we still have a fair number of big passenger terminals though. At a guess they'd probably have used either King's Cross, Paddington, or Waterloo (all in London). King's Cross was used for the Harry Potter films so it's obviously suited to film work.

[Murphy Siding]

Last night, my 2 younger sons and I tried to watch a DVD of a movie titled "Millions". I say *tried*, to watch, because the DVD had problems, and then stopped completely half way through. In the movie, there is are scenes of British passenger trains speeding through the countryside. (The bad guys toss a bag full of money off one of the trains.) Has anybody seen this movie? I'm curious where this was filmed. There is also, a scene inside a big passenger terminal. Also, an odd question,as it pertains to one of the plot elements in the movie: Is business in Britain conducted in pounds, or Euros?

Thanks.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed


Is that Dore Hugh?

Cold...

[Simon Reed]

Cumbrian Coast is out of bounds for C3 stock as well - in other words quite a few popular charter routes are precluded.

Is that Dore Hugh?

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: Given their Route Availability Number of 5, as opposed to that of 8 for the class 67's (default loco for charters nowadays) an HST can not only go places a 67 can't (such as Mallaig, Pwllheli - are you listening charter operators !) but will incur lower access charges.

As far as I know, the problem with using HST's for charters isn't power car Route Availability, it's the C3 profile passenger car clearances - so they can only run on routes cleared for HST/Mk3 running (i.e. their current/old stomping grounds plus approved diversionary routes).

In reality this is most of the system, but I suspect Mallaig and Pwllheli are probably out of reach.

I guess this also the reason the charter operators don't seem to be interested in the ex-Virgin loco-hauled Mk3 stock - unlike the C1 profile Mk1/Mk2 stock it's not 'go anywhere'.

Tony

P.S. Nice photo Hugh [:)]

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

I must admit to having a few palpitations watching:

1 engine powered up HST engine climbing the 1/60 bank in the leaf fall from a standing start on the down to PNZ. Voyagers are worse. Sometime ago, when the single line was still extant from Probus the last HST of the eve failed approaching; crawled in at 30 and just made the bank at around 3MPH. I have a tail light camera and was watching with some trepidation. There was an amused Voyager driver watching from my Inner Home as the chaos ensued!

Still if the HST had got stock at least they could summon the class 57 from Penzance that works the overnight sleeper to assist. I understand Virgin have made one of their 57 "Thunderbirds" available for such duties on the S. Devon switchback.

[Hugh Jampton]

Here's one in the rain on Sunday as the sun was shining.



hahahaha,, thanks to spankybird I can post pictures. (insert one of they smiley face thingys here)

[Anonymous]

I must admit to having a few palpitations watching:

1 engine powered up HST engine climbing the 1/60 bank in the leaf fall from a standing start on the down to PNZ. Voyagers are worse. Sometime ago, when the single line was still extant from Probus the last HST of the eve failed approaching; crawled in at 30 and just made the bank at around 3MPH. I have a tail light camera and was watching with some trepidation. There was an amused Voyager driver watching from my Inner Home as the chaos ensued!

[mhurley87f]

Let's not forget just how reliable they are, too. Having two engines confers huge reliability benefits to the operators. If one fails, the survivor can certainly cope on almost all routes.

As far as I'm aware, Fishguard Harbour was one route where BR, and now First GW, have been loath to run a train with a dead power car because of the 1 in 47 climb back out.

Hwyl,

Martin.

[Tulyar15]

The charter train operator "Cotswold Rail" has acquired a number of HST's for charter trains. Given their Route Availability Number of 5, as opposed to that of 8 for the class 67's (default loco for charters nowadays) an HST can not only go places a 67 can't (such as Mallaig, Pwllheli - are you listening charter operators !) but will incur lower access charges. Gatwick Express revealed recently that they had nearly hired some of these stored HST's due to problems with the power supplies - apparrently their new EMU's guzzle too much power despite the recent power supply upgrade on the southern.

Hull Trains have said they might acquire an HST or two since if their business carries on growing they may need extra stock. With Voyagers/Meridians not being in production at the moment these spare HST's might be the only option.

[Anonymous]

The 153's are awful - they are conversions of the 2-car class 155 sprinter sets (an extra cab was added on the inner ends). The main problems I have with them are with the seating - I'm just under 6ft and my knees end up jammed against the ribs in the back of the seat in front, said seats are also very cramped (no elbow room at all) and poorly padded. Add in the fact that shorter people can't see out, and the noise, and I suspect the real intention behind them is to encourage road use! The older DMUs were a lot nicer - still noisy at times but far better seating and if you were lucky enough to bag a seat at the front of the lead car it was almost as good as a cab ride - you could watch the line ahead over the driver's shoulder. Luckily plenty of survivors can be found on preserved lines nationwide.

I'm not aware of any problems with the HST beyond age - Virgin got rid of their fleet when they bought new Voyager and Pendolino sets hence the mothballed examples. A few power cars and trailers have moved to other operators but there are still plenty of spares. The real problem is one of cost - a HST has two big power units and is designed to run at around 100mph, so operating them on a branch line would cost a fortune and might well cause problems with the power cars over time due to the repeated stopping and slow overall speeds. It would be rather like trying to drive an F1 car through city traffic!

[daveklepper]

What is wrong with the HST trains that they aren't all in use? Are the 153's anything like the Sprinters that were good for a bone vibration treatment when I rode them in 1962?

[Anonymous]

I think the plan is to go over to multiple-unit only operations. Apparently there will still be the odd one or two loco-hauled trains for special occasions (presumably like the Royal Welsh Show - for the past two years we've seen a "37" and three or four MK2s coming up from South Wales to Builth Road station). If only they could bring some of those mothballed HST sets back out and use them in 2+2 formations on the branch lines - a lot more comfortable than the ghastly 153's we get!

[daveklepper]

What is the replacement equipment?

[Tulyar15]

I hadan enjoyable day out yesterday on the loco hauled finale on the Rhymney line in South Wales. Three sets of Mk 2 cars were in use, top and tailed. The pairings were:-

50 049 + 37 419
33 207 + 47 ???
37 425 + the green 37 (can't remember its number)

weather was good and I shelled out £20 for a day rover ticket but didn't get to ride behing the the 50. 37 425 and 50 049 were in BR large logo blue the former sporting its new "Pride of the Valleys" nameplates. 33 207 and the 47 had both newly been repainted in West Coast Railways maroon and very smart they looked too.

[Simon Reed]

Mr. Siding - I've put your address somewhere and Lynne seems to have "tidied it up."

Let me have it again and I'll send you a seasonal gift!

[mhurley87f]

Sorry it's a bit off topic, but I had a sad duty to perform yesterday.

George Thomas of Llanelli, a former National President of ASLEF, was buried in the town, and his daughter ( a close friend and former colleague of my wife, Helen) had earlier asked that I be one of the bearers at the funeral.

George was one of the most modest and genuine persons I've ever met. Not only was he well respected for his work on behalf of his Footplate colleagues, he was also a former Mayor and Freeman of his home town, and it was fitting that the great and the good of the town and his beloved ASLEF turned out to show their respect.

As you'd expect, the Hymns were sung with quite a bit of hwyl.

Martin

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by owlsroost

As far as I know, the South Wales trains started out with 3 x 37, then went to 2 x 37 after they discovered that two could handle it (they were just slower up Stormy Bank).

I don't think the Immingham trains ever had more than 2 x 37 - that part of Lincolnshire is pretty flat and there's no HST's to keep out of the way of !

Tony

They certainly used pairs of 56's at one time on the Port Talbot - Llanwern iron ore trains as I remember photographying them at Cardiff. At that time they'd just named a few 56's with Welsh names. Now I've got a working scanner if I can find one of these shots I'll scan it in.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Murphysiding - sorry, but no. http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/
or
http://www.dreadful.org.uk/
might explain why.

Rats! Nor does it appear I will ever be one!

[Simon Reed]

Murphysiding - sorry, but no. http://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/
or
http://www.dreadful.org.uk/
might explain why.

[owlsroost]

As far as I know, the South Wales trains started out with 3 x 37, then went to 2 x 37 after they discovered that two could handle it (they were just slower up Stormy Bank).

I don't think the Immingham trains ever had more than 2 x 37 - that part of Lincolnshire is pretty flat and there's no HST's to keep out of the way of !

Tony

[mhurley87f]

From memory, weren't the 37s run in Threes and the 56s pairs?

I remember being surprised to see a 59 on a loaded ore train @ Margam Moors one day (was it 4 or 5 years ago??), but at that location, there would be little choose between them (59 / 60 / 66) as they would have been accelerating from a short downhill stretch on the Docks Branch onto dead level on the mainline prior to hitting Stormy Bank.

Now if I'd been @ Stormy Sidings, then I might have been able offer a highly subjective opinion on which seemed to be coping best.

Hwyl,

Martin

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: What did they replace the 66's with? I should think 60's would be the only alternative?

Based on my own occasional observations, over time I think they've gone from 37's (paired) -> 56's -> 60's (currently) - I guess the 66's were a brief tryout which didn't work out...but then the 66's weren't designed for heavy-haul, at the time EWS saw the future mostly as general freight/intermodal, so they compromised the low-speed performance in favour of a higher top speed (85 mph design speed) and lighter motors/alternator so that more fuel could be carried.

I think (ex-NP) 59's were tried for a while on the South Wales ore trains - anyone know how they performed compared to the 60's ?

Tony