British Railway Operations

[Simon Reed]

Not always the case.

Some renumbering followed a logical sequence and some - the "Peaks", for example, were renumbered when they went through works.

Interestingly although TOPS did'nt allow 000 individual signifiers, it DID, somehow, allow duplication of numbers.This is how the Class 56 locomotives, introduced from 1977 and for some time Britain's most powerful locomotives, were occasionally and embarrasingly confused with Class 114 DMU power cars....

[Anonymous]

TOPS did have some interesting side-effects. Previously locos were numbered with a D prefix (Diesels) or an E prefix (Electrics). The first of class was numbered D400, D200, etc - however, TOPS couldn't handle 50000 or 40000 - result being that the first of class had to take the highest number. D400 became 50050, for example.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

beaulieu: What does TOPS stand for?

thanks

Total Operations Processing System, it was created by the Southern Pacific Railroad in the US. See this article for a fuller explanation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOPS

Thanks. I get it now.

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by coasterjoe

There is really no such thing as a short line in Britian in the form that Americans are used to.

Regrettably, retrospective vision is always 20/20, and at the time of the Beeching cuts, and there were a few routes that should have been moth-balled.

Line closures decisions were taken on a route by route basis and little concern paid to the effect of one decision on others.

Unfortunately, the legislation covering railway ownership and operation didn't allow for anything other than the Nationalised Industry way, and solutions to the high costs built into the operational arrangements were a few years away.

Even simple measures such as adopting request stop passenger operations were verboten in some Regions of BR while hugely effective in others.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

What about the line from Northallerton to Redmire. I thought that it was going to be kind of a hybrid between a preserved railway and an operating railway providing transportation to locals and freight service to the MOD facility near Redmire.

Yes it is. The Wensleydale Railway company who operate the passenger service are registered with Network Rail as an operator. NR still own the line and EWS do still operate freights on behalf of the MoD. In due course WR have an aspiration to run thru to York.

It is hoped that this arrangement may provide a template for further re-openings and possible micro franchising of some rural lines. In Anglesey, there's hope that the Amlwch line will be re-opened on a similar basis.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

beaulieu: What does TOPS stand for?

thanks

Total Operations Processing System, it was created by the Southern Pacific Railroad in the US. See this article for a fuller explanation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOPS

[Murphy Siding]

beaulieu: What does TOPS stand for?

thanks

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

A while back some class 20's were sold to a shortline in France, but they've now been re-imported into the Britain.

I think the nearest equivalent to an American shortline is the Bicester Military Railway. It links a number of army depots in that area and much of the traffic on it is just between these depots . But the army also charters a train from EWS to link the BMR with other military depots around the country. At one time the BMR even had a form of open access whereby it operated trains over the main line from Bicester to Oxford with its own stock and crews. The main line co. was always slightly nervous given the age of some of the stock, but knowing Bicester it was probably beautifully maintained.

What about the line from Northallerton to Redmire. I thought that it was going to be kind of a hybrid between a preserved railway and an operating railway providing transportation to locals and freight service to the MOD facility near Redmire.

[Tulyar15]

A while back some class 20's were sold to a shortline in France, but they've now been re-imported into the Britain.

I think the nearest equivalent to an American shortline is the Bicester Military Railway. It links a number of army depots in that area and much of the traffic on it is just between these depots . But the army also charters a train from EWS to link the BMR with other military depots around the country. At one time the BMR even had a form of open access whereby it operated trains over the main line from Bicester to Oxford with its own stock and crews. The main line co. was always slightly nervous given the age of some of the stock, but knowing Bicester it was probably beautifully maintained.

[Anonymous]

There is really no such thing as a short line in Britian in the form that Americans are used to. With the whole of main line track being owned by Network Rail and most of the Preservied lines not conncected directly to the main line network. However there are some cases of open acess freight operators using Locomotives that are much older then most. The best example is are the Class 20s that are aproching their 50th year service. There have also been a older group of locomotives being rehabed and leased off to work in France on their construction of their newist highspeed line.

[Murphy Siding]

Most road freights here have two man crews. They'll pobably stay as two man crews for a while, as most trains are 1/2 to 1 1/2 mile long, and general concensus is that two are needed in the cab. Most cast off locomotives here end up in the scrapyard, or on a shortline somewhere. Judging from info on websites provided here, and publications other forum members have sent me, it appears that preservation is BIG in Britain. Is there also a network of shortlines in Britain that use cast off locomotives?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

One man arrangemnets on 100mph freights. Neehhhhhhhhh problem. Yeghes da!

Incidentally one answer to the question re: derailments. Look at the size of the country; then look at our gutter press. Then you will get an answer. Its news here.

[Tulyar15]

I find that amazing. Now I know why Ed Burkhardt was so impressed that British Rail had managed to get an agreement on one man operation of trains in place in the 1980's.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Why not redeploy the two who are superfluous onto M-of-W duties, to improve the road and increase the road speed. Hey presto! You can offer a more attractive and expedient service to shippers and reduced your operational costs because your crews and locomotives can do things three times as quickly.

Every time one man crews are mentioned on this forum many handbags go skyward with amazing rapidity. Nearly as many as when open access is mentioned..

[Tulyar15]

Yes, a lot of the diesel locos that BR ordered in the 1950's did not last much beyond the end of steam. A combination of branch line closures, better diagramming of the more reliable diesels and the completion of the West Coast Main Line electrification from Crewe to Glasgow in 1974 meant that diesels from the following makers had become extinct by that year:-

North British
Metropolitan Vickers
Claytons

The diesel hydraulic locos ordered by the Western region became extinct by 1977, though I gather the MTU engines used in the latest HST re-enginng project are descended from the Maybach engines used in these locos, as are the transmissions used in most modern DMU's here - most of which have hydraulic transmission.

Another firm who went bust due to lack of orders were the Birmingham Railway Carriage and Wagon co. As well as building DMU's they buitl Sulzer engined diesel locos for BR and the ones they supplied last very well - they were generally better than the Sulzer engined locos built in BR workshops. When BR invited manufacturers to build a 2,700hp prototype diesel loco in 1960, before placing an order for 500 such locos, BRCW's contender was a Sulzer engined loco painted in an impratical white colour, named "Lion". It put up some good performances but as a result of BRCW going bust was scrapped. To add insult to injury it's Sulzer engine was re-used by arch rivals Brush (one of the few British locomotive builders still in business) once they got the order for the 500 locos. (Brush had built a prototype using called "Falcon" using two 1,400hp Maybach engines - the same type used in the BR build "Western" class diesel hydraulic locos. But BR wanted the Sulzer engine and as some of the 2500hp Sulzer engined "Peak" class diesels build in BR workshops had employed Brush generators and motors it was a natural progression for Brush and BR to collaborate on the build of a 2,700hp diesel. Construction of the 500 locos was split between Brush and BR Crewe. Apart from the English Electric class 50's , after that Brush either won every order for locos from BR or supplied the electrics for BR diesel locos up to the end of BR's existence.

[Murphy Siding]

beaulieu sent me a Freightmaster Railfreight timetable, and a British Railways Pocket Book of Locomotives![:)] Being the analyzer/ information junkie that I am, they are very interesting. In looking at the locomotive book, I wonder what kind of problems occur from having lots of active locos from as far back as the early 1960's? Aren't a lot of the producing companies out of business? We still have shortlines with ALCO's, but I'm sure parts are hard to find.

[Murphy Siding]

beaulieu sent me a Freightmaster Railfreight timetable, and a British Railways Pocket Book of Locomotives![:)] Being the analyzer/ information junkie that I am, they are very interesting. In looking at the locomotive book, I wonder what kind of problems occur from having lots of active locos from as far back as the early 1960's? Aren't a lot of the producing companies out of business? We still have shortlines with ALCO's, but I'm sure parts are hard to find.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding
[

Thank you for your offer. I'd hate to make you part with it though. It's quite interesting to read about the differences in Britain than here. In my part of the world, 90% of train cars coming through are hauling rock, or grain, and are pulled by the same pool of GP 38's and GP 39's. Oh to have some more variety. Simon Reed mailed me 3 British Railroad magazines a while back. Railfanning, and railroad publications seem to be pretty popular.
Where abouts, in Wisconsin are you? We go to Duluth and Bayfield every year on vacation.

Thanks

No problem parting with it as I have the other three issues for the year. I have been planning a cull of the older issues, I now buy only one issue per year just to keep up with the changes. Send me an e-mail with your snail mail address.


I am in Grantsburg, halfway between the Twin Ports and the Twin Cities. Depending on which route you take you may pass close by me.

I received your package in the mail today. Thank You very much- this looks interesting.

[Simon Reed]

A brief answer - partly because it's a big can of worms and partly because it's pub night for me - is that away from the main traffic corridors the condition of North American infrastructure is poor by British standards, therefore very poor by the standards of many European countries.

As has been mentioned a bit earlier in this post most of the freight flows in Britain are timed to a 60 or 75MPH maxima and other than some very secondary routes speeds of this nature are generally attainable.

It always amazes me to think of North American secondary and short lines being restricted to as little as 10MPH throughout solely because of the infrastucture condition, but with three men in the cab.

Why not redeploy the two who are superfluous onto M-of-W duties, to improve the road and increase the road speed. Hey presto! You can offer a more attractive and expedient service to shippers and reduced your operational costs because your crews and locomotives can do things three times as quickly.

OK, so that's a bit simplistic, but the evil Doctor Guinness has his spell on me...

[Murphy Siding]

Simon: I know you've traveled a lot by rail. How would you compare the physical condition of the rail system in the US compared to Britain?

[Simon Reed]

There seems to be a certain element of "have faith, brothers" in North American roadbed standards.

I've seen dropped joints and mud seepage on 60MPH sections - the sort of stuff you'd not find on industrial spurs in Europe.

Commiserations, by the way, on the ousting of Gunn. I'm thinking of how I can raise money quickly to get over there and ride the few Amtrak services I've not done - especially the Downeaster as Maine is one of the three states I've never travelled through - before US passenger rail is dead and buried.

[Anonymous]

Ah, fair enough - for some reason I always thought it was 25mph! We have seen the occasional freight through here - most recent was steel coil wagons and 37's a few years ago. I think they only had two coils per wagon rather than three, presumably to bring the axle load within limits?

[Tulyar15]

A Light Railway Order doesn't necessarily restrict you to 25mph - I think you'll find the linespeed on the Central Wales line is higher than that. What it does do is that in return for imposing a 25mph speed limit, preserved lines can get away with a lower standard of track maintenance than main line railways. For instance they can use track that is life expired as far as main line use is concerned.

The fact that the Central Wales line is maintained to lower standards means it cannot nornally be used by freight trains - in the old days it was quite an important freight route.

[Anonymous]

There is something known as the Light Railway Order - most preserved lines run under this as do a few sections of main line (the southern section of the Heart of Wales line for one) - basically this means a speed limit of 25MPH. I assume that there's not as much requirement for inspection and certification when running under this but I'm not sure? I also get the impression it only applies to passenger services as I've read some interesting stories about preserved lines after the crowds have gone home!

[owlsroost]

QUOTE: is the track built and maintained to a higher standard than we have on our lines?

Not necessarily - heavy duty freight and fast passenger trains both need high track standards, although the important parameters may be different.

I suspect it's more that because most lines in the UK have to be fit to carry passenger trains, the lowest level of acceptable track quality is probably higher than it is in the US - 25mph passenger trains aren't very attractive to passengers [:)]

Tony

[mhurley87f]

Apologies for the gibberish - it's the mention of steam that causes this over-excitement !

Martin

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I must admit I did not realise any of the Llanwern plant was still functioning. When I travelled to Cardiff recently I noticed the tracks all seemed to still be in use - now I know why. Nearby Newport station is a favourite spot of mine for watching trains. I shall be going over to South Wales for the loco hauled specials on Sunday 4th December.

Where route(s) will they be taking, which locomotives are lined up for the trips, and any idea of the likely timings?

Any information would be gratefully received.

Martin

[Murphy Siding]

In looking at our forums, I see that we derail a train over here about once a week. Certainly, there would be a lot of factors involved in these derailments. If Britain runs so many passenger and freight trains on tight schedules, and at pretty good speeds, is the track built and maintained to a higher standard than we have on our lines?

Thanks

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding
[

Thank you for your offer. I'd hate to make you part with it though. It's quite interesting to read about the differences in Britain than here. In my part of the world, 90% of train cars coming through are hauling rock, or grain, and are pulled by the same pool of GP 38's and GP 39's. Oh to have some more variety. Simon Reed mailed me 3 British Railroad magazines a while back. Railfanning, and railroad publications seem to be pretty popular.
Where abouts, in Wisconsin are you? We go to Duluth and Bayfield every year on vacation.

Thanks

No problem parting with it as I have the other three issues for the year. I have been planning a cull of the older issues, I now buy only one issue per year just to keep up with the changes. Send me an e-mail with your snail mail address.
My e-mail is [e-mail]

I am in Grantsburg, halfway between the Twin Ports and the Twin Cities. Depending on which route you take you may pass close by me.

E-mail sent. Thank You!

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Rolling Stock does seem to get vandalised a lot, especially in London. So I don't think it;s anything to do with unemployment.

I gather the Amman Valley line from Pantyffynon (the line that branches off to the right as you head up the Central Wales line) is to re-open due to one of the pits in the valley re-opening. There's also talk that the Burry Port & Gwendreath Valley line may also re-open again due to a possible mine re-opening. Ironically high oil prices are helping to make these mines viable again. The group who want to preseve the BP &GV line have abandonded their plans to convert it to narrow gauge and instead have set about acquiring suitable standard gauge stock with which to operate. They've bought one of the cut down 03's and I believe the cut down 08's still exist. Dont know what they can do about passenger stock - perhaps use old tube cars like the North Downs railway used to when they were based in Chatham Docks.

We're very fortunate that Network Rail's policy on track abandondment is very different to that of British Rail back in the nineteen seventies, so the track was allowed to remain in situ pending upturns in the demand for anthracite , and now these two branches can be re-activitated at very little cost.

The Pantyffynnon to Tai'rgwaith (Gwaun Cae Gurwen) branch re-activation is due to the granting of planning consent to further, and extended, open cast mining operations in the Cwmllynfell area (that area formerly served by the Midland Railway's Gurnos - Brynaman branch) and I understand that the availablity of rail service was a major factor in getting that consent.

Open cast mining down here is not popular with the locals. Our valleys are rather broader than those of SE Wales, and the valley slopes much less steep, so the outcropping seams are consequently easier to exploit by removing the overburden to get at the coal. Why then is it unpopular? Well, as time goes on, the cost of moving earth and rock gets ever cheaper thanks to technological advances, with the result that communities suffer through the very same tracts of land being worked and re-worked every twenty to thirty years or so, with each excavation being deeper than before to get at virgin coal !! Some villages have been surrounded by these "mines" ever since World War 2. So Powder River Basin it ain't.

There are no coal "pits" within the Anthracite coalfield in Wales (Tower's claim to being an anthracite producer is by virtue of working what was in the past the Glyncorrwg Pits' territory), merely a few private licences drift mines, and the open cast mines.

Re-activation of the Burry Port & Gwendraeth Valley branch might prove more difficult as the Coedbach Washery that processed the valley's coal (also from other sources, depending on demand / production) has been totally dismantled and the site is in the process of being remediated.

That said, during the nineteen eighties, the National Coal Board was busily acquiring a vast holding of land to the east of the Washery (i.e. N of the Main BR Line and the A484) as the seams underlying that area had been barely nibbled at. The big bonus was that the Local Planning Authority at that time was keen to see the coal extracted and the land subsequently being allowed to flood, to create a new landscape that would eventually be amenable to leisure pursuits, not unlike the former gravel pits in the Thames Valley.

If I hear anything locally, beans will be spilt !

Have a good weekend.

Martin