British Railway Operations

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

murphy...the S&C is still with is and ironically sees so much freight traffic that they have had to shut the thing for a month to relay the track with the pounding from (imported) coal trains. Google (uk) the Settle and Carlisle and hits there are many.

worked absolute block with quite long sections. Have travelled Leeds to Appleby but not beyond.

Quite a change from the 15 year old magazine article. The article made it sound like traffic back then was 6-8 trains a day, with a few of those being "short,light freight trains" Where does the coal get imported from? I'll bet it doesn't travel in 100 car unit trains of 100 ton cars, like it does here.[:)]

The coal is imported thru the port of Hunterston in SW Scotland, on the Clyde estuary, and makes its way south over the S&C's former partner, the Glasgow and SW line (see one of my earlier posts for more info about the partnership of these lines). The lengths are about 20+. In the latest "Modern Railways" there's an article about how they're trying to increase the length of these trains. In the past the length of sidings at coal mines was the constraining factor, but with imported coal this is not a problem.

The S&C has just been closed for a month for emergency repairs as all these extra trains have caused a lot of wear on the track. It's closing again in July - which is annoying as I'm spending a week's vacation in Carlisle to go train watching in the last week in July.

Meanwhile Futuremodal will no doubt be delighted to hear that yet another OA operator has now got the go-ahead to haul coal down from Scotland. The infrastructure co Jarvis have now got an operating licence to run trains and will be running coal trains as well as maintenance trains. UK railfans will be pleased too as they'll be using class 56's (which EWS stopped using in 2004) so it will make a change from the all conquering 66's. The Jarvis 56's have been refurbuished by Brush and re-classified 56/3 with numbers starting at 56 301.

[Anonymous]

I think the coal comes in from Eastern Europe now - not 100% sure though. I do know it's nothing like as good as proper Welsh steam coal - the imported stuff is very dusty and doesn't burn too well, leaving a lot of ash when used in a domestic fireplace.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

murphy...the S&C is still with is and ironically sees so much freight traffic that they have had to shut the thing for a month to relay the track with the pounding from (imported) coal trains. Google (uk) the Settle and Carlisle and hits there are many.

worked absolute block with quite long sections. Have travelled Leeds to Appleby but not beyond.

Quite a change from the 15 year old magazine article. The article made it sound like traffic back then was 6-8 trains a day, with a few of those being "short,light freight trains" Where does the coal get imported from? I'll bet it doesn't travel in 100 car unit trains of 100 ton cars, like it does here.[:)]

[Anonymous]

murphy...the S&C is still with is and ironically sees so much freight traffic that they have had to shut the thing for a month to relay the track with the pounding from (imported) coal trains. Google (uk) the Settle and Carlisle and hits there are many.

worked absolute block with quite long sections. Have travelled Leeds to Appleby but not beyond.

[John Bakeer]

Hi Murphy,
The Settle and Carlisle is very much alive.
I nave Microsoft Train Simulator which features the S & C fron Carlisle to Settle.
Using MSTS add-ons ,it's possible to drive anything from FlyingfScotsman to a an SD70 along the route (clearances for the SD are a bit tight!).
The actual route is very much as the sim'. It is possible to obtain VCR/DVDs of the line both ancient and recent from Steam Powered Video at <www.spv.co.uk.>
Roll 'em.
John B.

[M636C]

There is an excellent series of books on British steam locomotives by the late Brian Haresnape, originally published by Ian Allan, and reprinted as recently as the mid 1990s with other imprint names. These each cover the locomotives from a particular chief mechanical engineer. Anyway, I pulled out his "Bullied Locomotives" (I've bought every one I've seen) and on page 79 there is a photo of "Leader" 36001 being dismantled, and there does appear to be a passage on the left side for the full length, past both the boiler and the water tank, although the text only mentions the corridor past the boiler.

The "Leader" names intended for these locomotives were probably those applied to "Battle of Britain" class Pacific locomotives, "Winston Churchill", "Lord Dowding" and so on, although these locomotives were complete before the "Leaders" themselves owing to the long development time.

M636C

[Murphy Siding]

I just re-read a 15 year old article in Trains Magazine about some British railfanning. It mentioned The Settle & Carlisle Railway, that had Ribblehead Viaduct. The article made it seem that this line was somewhat on the endangerd list. Has anyone (probably Simon) been over this line? What is it like today? Thanks

[Tulyar15]

M636C - you're right about the Leader's corridor - I think that is why the boiler was offset to one side.

Interesting before ill health forced his early retirement, RE Maunsell, Bulleid's predecessor on the Souther and Chief Mechanical Engineer had been considering building a class of small Beyer Garratts with a low axle weight for the Southern;'s lightly laid branches in SW England. I think it was to cover those sort of duties that the Leader was intended. (It was also for this reason that the Southern adopted the 1Co-Co1 wheel arrangement for its 3 prototype diesel locos, so as to give them a lower axle weight than the LMS ones which employed the same 16 cylinder 4-cycle English Electric engine but were Co-Co's. The 1Co-Co1 bogies Bulleid designed were subsequently used on the EE Class 40's and the BR built Sulzer engined "Peak" class.)

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

I recollect the last buses with two man/women crews were the London Routemasters that dated from the early fifties, the last regular service operated by these vehicles was withdrawn a few weeks ago amid a sad celebration. I believe a musuem route is still retained for tourists.
London Transport have recently introduced single manned Bendibuses to replace the Routemasters, but at sixty feet long, they are causing major traffic problems.
As far as I am aware there is no bus company in the UK currently operating two man buses in regular service.
On a recent trip to Blackpool I travelled on a double decker tram with a two man crew, there was a third person (possibly an inspector or instructor) operating the doors.
I take on board all the enlightening comments about the Leader and feel the subject (for me at least) has run out of steam. one puzzle remains, communication between driver and fireman?
John B.

In fact, the Leader had a corridor up one side of the boiler linking the central cab with that at the smokebox end, and although I haven't checked this, I assume there was a passage to the cab at the bunker end as well. If you managed to get past the firebox which had only steel and firebrick between you and the fire, you then stumbled up a dark passageway (no windows) full of scrap steel castings as ballast which were trying to compensate for the off central boiler (off centre to allow for the passage, of course). I think I'd only do that in an emergency myself, but it was there in theory at least.

M636C

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

My brother has added some more pics of Worcester, England to his site, which show some of the variety of trains which can be seen there, alongside the fine collection of ex Great Western semaphore signals:-


http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Worcester/index.htm

Wow! Is that a neat link![:)] The signals have a great sort of* maritime flag* look about them.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I understand how the British have privatized their system now. The tracks are owned by one entity, and the trains by another. Can anyone explain, in layman's terms how this actually works? and is it working? Perhaps some of our forum members from over there could enlighten us. (Future Model-throttle back for a bit on this one-I know you're not British[:)]) Thanks

ANSWERS TO Qs IN ORDER:-

YES
YES AND MORE
NO
NO
THEY COULD TRY

There is an alternative history to this that I would love to publis...is anyone interested? (Be warned ... it goes back to the 1800s...

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

De Caso's big Nord 4-6-4s, classes 232R and 232S were styled somewhat like the Gresley A4, but as they operated with the smokebox cover removed had similarities with "**** o' the North" and Bullied's own pacific types.
.M636C

They operated with the smokebox cover removed, meaning the front of the smokebox? Sounds counter-productive to getting the exhaust to exit through the stack. I picture a loco running with its front end innards exposed to the elements.
[?]

Taking the Gresley A4 as the example, they had what was called a "Bugatti Nose", a flat sloping streamlined cover (based on French Bugatti railcars) outside a conventional smokebox. A crank handle was inserted in the side of the nose and turned and the flat sloping section opened as two clamshell like doors split horizontally and hinged top and bottom, revealing a conventional smokebox door inside. That was then opened to access the smokebox.

On the Nord 4-6-4s, the equivalent streamlined cover was just a large single steel plate, possibly clipped or bolted in place. This was soon discarded, leaving a gap in the streamlining revealing a recessed conventional smokebox door. This was generally similar, as I said, to the as designed appearance of "**** o' the North" as built (it was modified to look more like an A4) or the appearance of Bulleid's Pacifics as first built.

M636C

Aha! Now I get it, and found a photo of the Bugatti Nose here- http://www.lner.info/locos/A/a4.shtml
[:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

Regarding the manual level crossings, I live next to the Heart of Wales line. Our town level crossing has the standard four electrically-operated lowering barriers, but they're activated by the train crew. The driver stops the train next to a control box about 30 metres or so from the crossing, the guard climbs down and presses the button. The lights then flash for a short time before the barriers lower - the idea being that people can get clear of the crossing or stop before the barriers lower. The guard then rejoins the train which runs through, after it has passed the lights go out and the barriers raise. It's been like this ever since the original manned signalbox was abandoned (that's now on the station platform as a museum), originally there would have been the type of gates that David describes, operated by means of a large wheel in the corner of the box (looks not unlike an old sailing ship's wheel) and a selection of rods and pivots under the trackbed/roadway. I've only once seen a car get stuck on the crossing (clueless drivers are a worldwide problem!) but as the train was stationary it wasn't dangerous - the guard ended up helping them reverse it clear of the tracks!

In a situation like that, does the driver blow the horn at the crossing as well?

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think they bother. It's straight, level track between the crossing and the control box, so they can see easily whether the line is clear. In the event of something blocking the line they'd just contact the signaller (dispatcher), say that they were stopped and why, given the next train wouldn't be for around four hours it would be unlikely to cause a problem. It's incredibly rare as I said - I've lived here for over 15 years now and can only recall one such incident. For a photo of the crossing see http://www.railcar.co.uk/pics/100-109/101/2/tc63.jpg - there's only a single track there now (the one on the right), trains now pass in the station itself rather than at the crossing. You can still see where the second line was as the barriers haven't been moved, so there's a sizable gap between the barriers and the remaining track.

[zardoz]

I'm not very familiar with British operations, and have not been following this thread. But in looking for something else, I came across this site about UK rail stuff. I just thought you might like it (lots of good old pics if you scroll down past the text).

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sddt.co.uk/newsletters/NewsLetter%252021%2520Jan%25202005_files/image006.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sddt.co.uk/newsletters/NewsLetter%252021%2520Jan%25202005.htm&h=251&w=350&sz=14&tbnid=VioooTfOnSjXbM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=116&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dplymouth%2Bvacuum%2B%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN

[Simon Reed]

You could be right, Hugh.

After all, Southern men were, by that stage, well versed in working EMU's on their own so the driver would'nt need any supplementary signal verification.

I still think there must have been some rudimentary communication though.

Amazing that in thinking about driver only operation I'd totally overlooked LUL. I was thinking about the inner and outer suburban services to places like Hampton Court, a place and concept that may bring tears to Hugh's eyes!

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Railroading_Brit

Regarding the manual level crossings, I live next to the Heart of Wales line. Our town level crossing has the standard four electrically-operated lowering barriers, but they're activated by the train crew. The driver stops the train next to a control box about 30 metres or so from the crossing, the guard climbs down and presses the button. The lights then flash for a short time before the barriers lower - the idea being that people can get clear of the crossing or stop before the barriers lower. The guard then rejoins the train which runs through, after it has passed the lights go out and the barriers raise. It's been like this ever since the original manned signalbox was abandoned (that's now on the station platform as a museum), originally there would have been the type of gates that David describes, operated by means of a large wheel in the corner of the box (looks not unlike an old sailing ship's wheel) and a selection of rods and pivots under the trackbed/roadway. I've only once seen a car get stuck on the crossing (clueless drivers are a worldwide problem!) but as the train was stationary it wasn't dangerous - the guard ended up helping them reverse it clear of the tracks!

In a situation like that, does the driver blow the horn at the crossing as well?

[Hugh Jampton]

My guess is there was no communication. Communicate what?

The driver sits up front where he/she gets an unimpeded view of everything ahead (so there's no need for the fireperson to call out signals etc.), and the fireperson knows the route as well as the driver so does not need prompting as to when more or less steam is required due to hills and the like..

[John Bakeer]

I recollect the last buses with two man/women crews were the London Routemasters that dated from the early fifties, the last regular service operated by these vehicles was withdrawn a few weeks ago amid a sad celebration. I believe a musuem route is still retained for tourists.
London Transport have recently introduced single manned Bendibuses to replace the Routemasters, but at sixty feet long, they are causing major traffic problems.
As far as I am aware there is no bus company in the UK currently operating two man buses in regular service.
On a recent trip to Blackpool I travelled on a double decker tram with a two man crew, there was a third person (possibly an inspector or instructor) operating the doors.
I take on board all the enlightening comments about the Leader and feel the subject (for me at least) has run out of steam. one puzzle remains, communication between driver and fireman?
John B.

[Anonymous]

Regarding the manual level crossings, I live next to the Heart of Wales line. Our town level crossing has the standard four electrically-operated lowering barriers, but they're activated by the train crew. The driver stops the train next to a control box about 30 metres or so from the crossing, the guard climbs down and presses the button. The lights then flash for a short time before the barriers lower - the idea being that people can get clear of the crossing or stop before the barriers lower. The guard then rejoins the train which runs through, after it has passed the lights go out and the barriers raise. It's been like this ever since the original manned signalbox was abandoned (that's now on the station platform as a museum), originally there would have been the type of gates that David describes, operated by means of a large wheel in the corner of the box (looks not unlike an old sailing ship's wheel) and a selection of rods and pivots under the trackbed/roadway. I've only once seen a car get stuck on the crossing (clueless drivers are a worldwide problem!) but as the train was stationary it wasn't dangerous - the guard ended up helping them reverse it clear of the tracks!

[Tulyar15]

My brother has added some more pics of Worcester, England to his site, which show some of the variety of trains which can be seen there, alongside the fine collection of ex Great Western semaphore signals:-


http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Worcester/index.htm

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Isambard

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

De Caso's big Nord 4-6-4s, classes 232R and 232S were styled somewhat like the Gresley A4, but as they operated with the smokebox cover removed had similarities with "**** o' the North" and Bullied's own pacific types.
.M636C

They operated with the smokebox cover removed, meaning the front of the smokebox? Sounds counter-productive to getting the exhaust to exit through the stack. I picture a loco running with its front end innards exposed to the elements.
[?]

Taking the Gresley A4 as the example, they had what was called a "Bugatti Nose", a flat sloping streamlined cover (based on French Bugatti railcars) outside a conventional smokebox. A crank handle was inserted in the side of the nose and turned and the flat sloping section opened as two clamshell like doors split horizontally and hinged top and bottom, revealing a conventional smokebox door inside. That was then opened to access the smokebox.

On the Nord 4-6-4s, the equivalent streamlined cover was just a large single steel plate, possibly clipped or bolted in place. This was soon discarded, leaving a gap in the streamlining revealing a recessed conventional smokebox door. This was generally similar, as I said, to the as designed appearance of "**** o' the North" as built (it was modified to look more like an A4) or the appearance of Bulleid's Pacifics as first built.

M636C

[BR60103]

Murphy:
Start with the gates. The Briti***raditional level crossing has a set of big fence gates (with red circles) that keep the fence continuous. They are generally left across the tracks (for some weird reason) and need to be moved to block the road so trains can pass. Some places have bouble gates, others just single.
I suspect that in some places the crossing signals (flashers) may need to be manually started.
Tokens are a wonderful story in themselves. Where there is a single line, the driver must have authority (permission) to occupy the line. Theis is in the form of a token (big iron ring?) or a staff that has the name of the section of track written on it -- "Oysterperch to Far Twittering". The signalman would set up the line, in conjunction with the signalman at the other end of the line, and then the interlocking system would allow him to take out a token and give it to the driver who then knew that there was no other traffic on the line. The driver was required to read the token to ensure it was the right one.Tokens were issued at signal boxes at points where there were several tracks going into one -- stations and passing sidings. They were often passed at speed and occasionally dropped.
There were usually a number of copies of the token to allow several trains to follow in one direction.
The streetcar museums at Rockwood and Kennebuckport use a staff system for their single lines.
I suggest the book "Red for Danger" by LTC Rolt, which covers all sorts of developments in the safety systems in Britain, all of them because of horrible accidents.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mhurley87f
There are locations where the driver or the guard must leave the train to attend to single line tokens, activate highway signals protecting level crossing, and in a very few instances, physically open and close gates!
Martin

Could you elaborate a little about the tokens/signals comment? And the gates![:0] That must be really rural![:)] Thanks

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

A lot of trains on the inner suburban network in South London are driver only operated

Especially if you consider London Underground.

[Simon Reed]

A lot of trains on the inner suburban network in South London are driver only operated.

The driver does'nt issue tickets but there are ticket machines on stations, many of the stations are manned and "flying squads" of travelling ticket inspectors ride randomly around the network checking tickets.

Nottingham is a double-manned network and in my experience, like Sheffield, the conductors are very vigilant.

I suppose the light railway we've not thought about is Docklands which does'nt even have drivers! I'm heading down there on Friday to ride the new City Airport branch so I'll attempt a few photos for the benefit of our non-UK friends.

[daveklepper]

But the River Line does operate one man. Possibly one-man operation would require investment in grade crossing protection, automatic train stop, even train control (speed control) at signals, etc. Even constant TV monitoring between train and central dispatcher control desk is possible today.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M636C

Originally posted by John Bakeer

De Caso's big Nord 4-6-4s, classes 232R and 232S were styled somewhat like the Gresley A4, but as they operated with the smokebox cover removed had similarities with "**** o' the North" and Bullied's own pacific types.
.M636C

They operated with the smokebox cover removed, meaning the front of the smokebox? Sounds counter-productive to getting the exhaust to exit through the stack. I picture a loco running with its front end innards exposed to the elements.
[?]

Isambard

Grizzly Northern history, Tales from the Grizzly and news on line at  isambard5935.blogspot.com 

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