British Railway Operations

[Simon Reed]

The Furness Railway, Barrow-in-Furness, has a very "artists impression" of an 1848 Bury 0-6-0 on it's sign, with two wheels on one side and three on the other.

A casual observer could be forgiven for thinking that large sticks of celery were used as connecting rods on these engines....

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

Tulyar,
The station buffet at Staleybridge is in the CAMRA good beer guide.
John B.

I know! (I'm an active CAMRA member and past chairman of the Herefordshire branch!)

Talking of pub signs with inappropriate locos on them, I can think of two examples:-

1) The Railway, Malvern Wells, has a picture of a Midland Compound 4-4-0. It's possible these worked the Worcester - Hereford line in post WW2 years (the Midland always ran a faster commuter train from Gt. Malvern to Birmingham New St. and in the 1940's and 1950's all sorts of locos turned up - Midland Compouns, "Flying Pig" moguls (Ivatt cl 4), assorted 2-6-4T's. Probably the piece de resistance, towards the end of steam was 7P 4-6-0 #6100 "Royal Scot"!

2) The Midland Spinner, by the old station at Warmley (on the former Midland Bristol - Bath (Green Park) line, has on its pub sign NOT a Midland 4-2-2 (these were known as "Spinners" but a GW Hall 4-6-0!

[mhurley87f]

Talking of lineside 'pubs, we have two down here that have rather inappropriate locomotives depicted on the pub signs outside.

At Penclawdd, on the erstwhile LNWR / LMS Gowerton - Llanmorlais Branch, there's a pub sign adorned with a nice painting of a GWR Pannier Tank, which would have run there for a maximum of 5 years before its closure, while bizarrely, at Burry Port, the "Engine Inn," which backs on to Pembrey Signal Box, has a painting of a GNR Large Atlantic, which would never have been seen nearer than 200 miles !!

Are there any others out there?

Martin

[Murphy Siding]

And now you're discussing trains AND beer, two of my favorite things?

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar,
The station buffet at Staleybridge is in the CAMRA good beer guide.
John B.

[John Bakeer]

David,
I've been in touch with the NRM about the Robert Eames bell (the science museum put me on to them), and I have recieved an e-mail which indicates they may be able to locate it.
John B.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

The Swan is still referred to as the Mucky Duck, you'll be pleased to learn.

Any ideas on where the bar from which the most railway action can be seen is? I think we need to qualify this by specifying diversity as well as quantity.

Doesn't Clapham Junction have at least 1 bar?

Not necessarily the busiest, but the Railway at Dinmore, Herefordshire has a lovely view of the Hereford - Shrewsbury as it enters the southern portal of Dinmore Tunnel.

The Railway at Defford, Worcestershire (on Upton-on-Severn - Pershore Road) is by the site of Deffordd station on the Gloucester - Birmingham main line, just north of where it crosses the River Avon (as in Stratford-on).

[John Bakeer]

Thanks David,
That seems to sew up the Camelback issue for me.
Simon,
Your point about bars on stations and the associated train spotting possibilities calls for some serious research! But lets stick to the UK and proper cask conditioned beer, my travel pass only covers Greater Manchester.
John B.

[BR60103]

There is a writeup and a photo of the Lovett Eames lcoc in the book Top Shed by P.N.Townend Ian Allen, 1975). I'll summarize what I can. (Tried last week, hit the wrong key and dropped off the internet without posting.) [8]
The locomotive was the 5000th built by Baldwin, in 1880. 4-2-2 tender locomotive with 6'6" driving wheels, a Wooten firebox with a 56 sq ft grate, and weighed 38 tons. Had been built for express runs on the Philadelphia & Reading but was unsuccessful. Lovett Eames, American inventor, bought it to demonstrate the vacuum brake he had invented, and shipped it to England in 1881. It was erected at the Miles Platting works of the L&Y in 1882; was exhibited at the Alexandra Palace in July in an exhibition of life-saving devices.
Eames planned that the loco should be a demonstration of his duplex automatic Vacuum brake, and applied to run it on the Great Northern. Patrick Sterling examined it and could not recommend the loco be run on any trains on the GNR. He also turned down an offer to fit the system to a train. He said the board should be very careful not to do anything that would suggest recognition of the system.
The loco was stabled at Wood Green after the Ally Pally exhibition. It may have been run on some demonstration trains ...
May 1884, Eames left the loco in the hands of the GNR while he went back to the US for 6 weeks. He was assassinated in July 1884. [:0] The GNR auctioned the loco off for pds 165, but claimed expenses of pds 61.12s.10d. It was cut up at Wood Green, but the bell went to King's Cross Shed and then Hornsey, where it was used as a time signal.
(I have pulled a lot of this straight from the book. Top Shed was the name of the loco depot at King's Cross.)

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

The idea of bidding for paths was enshrined in the 94 Railways Act where the pillocks in the treasury thought the ever inventive hand of the free market would see operators bid for prime paths - and put ina process that they could undertake this every 8 weeks (the Peterborough Process!). This was junked when the consequences were pointed out.

It does not suprise me that there is a move to undertake differential pricing for paths especially when the train operators themselves opertae differential pricing for the trains.

p.s. Both The GNER and Great Western Franchises are already in deep, deep manure. Watch this space.....

Someone actually thought that several railroad companies would keep sufficient equipment on hand, just in case they were the low-bidder ? Then 8 weeks later, they could lose the low bid, and someone else would be running a line? Wow. It appears not too many railroad people were in on the planning level of this?

[Anonymous]

The idea of bidding for paths was enshrined in the 94 Railways Act where the pillocks in the treasury thought the ever inventive hand of the free market would see operators bid for prime paths - and put ina process that they could undertake this every 8 weeks (the Peterborough Process!). This was junked when the consequences were pointed out.

It does not suprise me that there is a move to undertake differential pricing for paths especially when the train operators themselves opertae differential pricing for the trains.

p.s. Both The GNER and Great Western Franchises are already in deep, deep manure. Watch this space.....

[Simon Reed]

The Swan is still referred to as the Mucky Duck, you'll be pleased to learn.

Any ideas on where the bar from which the most railway action can be seen is? I think we need to qualify this by specifying diversity as well as quantity.

My nomination - off the top of my head - would be the Bahnhofbar at Thalwil, just South of Zurich, although there's a bar in Namur, Belgium, that would come close.

[John Bakeer]

Simon,
When I drank there in the early 60's it was/is known as 'The mukky Duck'.
Tulyar,
The L&Y had some nine foot wide tenders, I refer to my previous submission.
John B.

[John Bakeer]

Simon,
The L&YRailway Society news sheet No 100 refers to a document 'USA to Leeds via Manchester Victoria and Camelback'. the same publication contains articles on train control, continuous brakes and brake trials.
I spend most of my midweek afternoons in The Grapes and/or The Armoury either side of the overbridge just outside Stockport Edgeley on the ECML, hear plenty of action, can't see a darned thing!
Shipley station has three faces on a triangular junction and I believe it also has a bar.
John B.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

I'm also a bit surprised about this.

I can't claim to be an L&Y historian but I DO know that they tended to build with limited clearances wherever they could.

Nevertheless, the widest passenger cars ever to run in Britain were the L & Y EMU's built in 1904 for the Liverpool - Southport electrification. These had 10' wide bodies - wider than anything the GWR ever built. The LMS designed EMU's which replaced them in 1938 had 9' 6" bodies (class 502) which the similar looking units for the Wirral Line (class 503) had 8' 6" bodies.

I'm no expert on the L & Y but sometime ago I bought an old book 2nd hand entitled "The L & Y in the 20th century". I forget the author's name but he joined the L & Y in 1908 and when the book was published (sometime in the 1950's if I remember correctly) he was regarded as an expert on the L & Y. Needless to say his book is an excellent read about one of the most progressive pre-grouping (1923) rail co's in Britain.

[Simon Reed]

I've spent my afternoon - and evening - in The Black Swan, Frizinghall, Bradford.

I rarely get Sundays off - and even more rarely get off the domestic leash - so you'll forgive me, hopefully, but to maintain the railway link I did get to see 6 trains an hour going past.....

John - any idea where this Eames machine worked on the L&Y? The GNR was built with reasonable clearances so I guess it may have seen better use there.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Perhaps this has been explained before, on this, or another thread. What is the difference between vacuum brakes and air brakes?

As usual,, I direct you towards Railway Technical where their brakes pages has more info on brakes than should be legal,, and there's pictures too,,,

http://www.railway-technical.com/air-brakes.html for air brakes
http://www.railway-technical.com/vacuum.html for vac brakes

Thank you Thank you! I'll be spending my afternoon reading about train brakes.[:)]

[John Bakeer]

Hugh,
The Railway Technical web page is, as you say, 'highly informative' I shall consult it whenever I am (frequently) baffled. There'sonly one problem, they don't have anything on Train Simulators!
It's all in the overhead.
John B.

[John Bakeer]

The last Mother Hubbards (7) were withdrawn by the CRRNJ. in 1954.
None were converted to run on third rail, and just 3 remain lurking in US museums.
John B.

[Hugh Jampton]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Perhaps this has been explained before, on this, or another thread. What is the difference between vacuum brakes and air brakes?

As usual,, I direct you towards Railway Technical where their brakes pages has more info on brakes than should be legal,, and there's pictures too,,,

http://www.railway-technical.com/air-brakes.html for air brakes
http://www.railway-technical.com/vacuum.html for vac brakes

[malcolmyoung]

QUOTE: Originally posted by daveklepper

Camel-back Ten Wheelers (4-6-0 USA, 2-3-0 British) were regularly handling Central RR of New Jersey suburban trains out of Jersey City (ferry to Manhattan) through most of 1952 when they were replaced by Baldwin diesels.

2-3-0 is French, not British. Here in Britain it is 4-6-0, the same as the U.S.A.
Malc.

[daveklepper]

Camel-back Ten Wheelers (4-6-0 USA, 2-3-0 British) were regularly handling Central RR of New Jersey suburban trains out of Jersey City (ferry to Manhattan) through most of 1952 when they were replaced by Baldwin diesels.

[malcolmyoung]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

Simon,
it's warning bell survived and may now be in someones collection.John B.

The bell from "Lovatt Eames" was on display in the Science Museum in Kensington, London about 20 years ago. I don't know if it is still on display but I'm sure they will still have it in storage somewhere if it isn't on display.
Malc.

[John Bakeer]

Simon,
The loco trialled on the L&Y was a demo for the Eames vacuum brake, named Lovett Eames with a re-sited and modified cab over the firebox (still separating the crews by several feet). It also ran tests on the GNR and others but without attracting a buyer for the Eames brake and was finally sold for scrap in 1884, it's warning bell survived and may now be in someones collection.The primary reason for the Mother Hubbard/Camel Back design was for the inclusion of the Wooton firebox designed to burn low volatile/slow burning anthracite/culm found in Philadelphia. A successfull engineering solution , but operationally undesirable due to crew separation and in this case cooking the driver/engineer. a.k.a. the Leader.
The French Nord as well as the Italian FS tried samples of these US machines, but did not persue thier use.
John B.

[BR60103]

Murphy:
Air brakes work by stuffing a lot of air into a pipe to keep the brakes off. A cylinder on the cars is filled with air. When the air is let out of the pipe, the air in the cylinder is used to press the brake shoes against the wheels.
Vacuum brakes work the same way, except that air is removed from the pipe and there is a cylinder of vacuum on each car.
The argument for air over vacuum, is that on Earth it is impossiblr to get more than something like 22 lbs pressure difference with a vacuum. (One atmosphere). Air can be compressed up to the limits of the machinery and the containers.

There is a story that when Britain was first contemplating automatic brakes, Westinghouse sent over a set and they were fitted to a train. A second train was fitted with vacuum. They were run over the same line and the brakes applied. The vacuum brakes stopped the train in a shorter distance.
One young engineer noticed that the air brakes had actually been applied to the wheels sooner, but the brakes on the vacuum system were bigger. The officials in charge declared that didn't matter; the name of the game was stopping the train and vacuum did it better.
Air brakes were still rare in the 1970s. (In 1976, one of the hump yards still had tracks designated Aberdeen Fitted and Aberdeen Unfitted -- coal wagos were still running without either type of continuous brakes.)

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I think the Eames system may have been used in Ireland. There was an accident there in the 19th century were a train had been divided but the rear portion ran away down a hil (the train had stalled on a hill and the crew had tried splitting it) and crashed into another, following train. It came out at the enquiry that as the type of vacuum brakes used required a vacuum to be created to apply the brakes. Thus the detached portion had no way of applying brakes once it was disconnected from the loco.

As a result of that accident all railways in Britain and Ireland were required to use automatic vacuum or air brakes for passenger trains (but not freighte, most of which remained without continuous brakes up till the 1960s!).

Perhaps this has been explained before, on this, or another thread. What is the difference between vacuum brakes and air brakes?

[Simon Reed]

I'm also a bit surprised about this.

I can't claim to be an L&Y historian but I DO know that they tended to build with limited clearances wherever they could.

Other than Liverpool Docks, which was primarily London North Western or Mersey Docks and Harbour Board territory I can't think of where a Camelback might have operated, unless a "cut down" version was imported.

John - You're not thinking of the Mersey Railway Beyer Peacock machines are you? These had a Camelback outline and one - No 5 - "Cecil Raikes" - survives.

[Anonymous]

I've heard that the camel back 4-2-2 came to britain but i've never seen a photo and as they say seeing is believing. I am also suprised that the L & Y had a camel back. As a point of intrest if it has not been mentioned already, when was the last Camel Back retired?

Also read to day that British Airways is slashing prices on European Short haul flights to beat the budget air lines and on London Manchester flights to beat Virgin Trains. Maybe this means the light at the end of the tunnel in the British Rail industry is not an oncoming train afterall.

[Tulyar15]

I think the Eames system may have been used in Ireland. There was an accident there in the 19th century were a train had been divided but the rear portion ran away down a hil (the train had stalled on a hill and the crew had tried splitting it) and crashed into another, following train. It came out at the enquiry that as the type of vacuum brakes used required a vacuum to be created to apply the brakes. Thus the detached portion had no way of applying brakes once it was disconnected from the loco.

As a result of that accident all railways in Britain and Ireland were required to use automatic vacuum or air brakes for passenger trains (but not freighte, most of which remained without continuous brakes up till the 1960s!).

[M636C]

A Wootten firebox 4-2-2, originally used by the Reading Railroad, with a "Camelback" cab was purchased by the "Eames" vacuum brake company and named "Lovatt Eames" after the proprietor. It demonstrated in the USA and was later moved to the UK, where, with a somewhat cut down cab which made it look even more odd (a camelback 4-2-2 qualifies as odd to start with!) it demonstrated the Eames vacuum brake. It may have moved to the continent or it may have been scrapped, but I don't think it ever returned to the USA.

The only application of Eames vacuum brakes I know of was in Sydney, Australia where the Baldwin 0-4-0 Steam Tram Motors used this system. From the description, it was a direct acting brake, not an automatic system, so the vacuum ejector was turned on to apply the brakes.

M636C