British Railway Operations

[Simon Reed]

John - how far in advance are you booking?

With the ALCo being in Peterborough I regularly travel down to work on it (or scratch my head and wonder what I've taken on!)

Booking far enough in advance via The Trainline - http://www.thetrainline.com/ - I can generally do the journey for £20-25 ($45 -48) which is cheaper than I can do it in my car - Citreon Xsara 1.9 Diesel - and certainly cheaper than "our" car which is an Alfa Romeo GTV!

Having said that I'm travelling on my own - obviously if more than one travels the train fare doubles but the fuel cost does'nt.

The other disadvantage about advanced booking is that you're restricted to specified trains.

The plus side - for me - is that I'm generally so weary after 8 hours bashing the ALCo with a big hammer that I appreciate not having to expend the mental effort required to drive back.

The minus side is that I travel back GNER. I'm of what you'd call "wiry" build - ie short, skinny and quite muscular - and I find GNER Mk 4 seats very uncomfortable on the buttocks!

Seriously - try The Trainline - very good bargains.

Dave - an interesting insight on Israeli trains and possibly worthy of another thread! Don't you have CAF built EMD's working the double deck stock?

[John Bakeer]

Dave,
Oh! How I miss the Yorkshiire Pullman with an A4 up front and impeccable service, comfort and food behind.
John B.

[daveklepper]

Of course I have fond memories of the British Pullmans and their tea/coffee and biscuts service. And the truly excellent "Full British Breakfast." The last meal I had on British Railways was before privitization and was on an East Coast mainline express, traveling first class, with I think what was called Silver Service, and I ate "place", not sure of spelling, but an excellent fish, not found in the USA or Canada or Israel. I enjoyed the trip and the meal very much, and felt the fare was reasonable for the speed and service I received. If I remember correctly I had booked the meal in advance and traveled only in the dining car, Newcastle - London, and I believe it was nonstop high speed run.

In the USA I generally used Amtrak's food service, however bad or good it was, and tried to make the best of it, and sometimes it was truly excellent. But I had also learned to pack emergency rations, just in case. I NEVER had a problem with VIA or Canadian National or Canadian Pacific. Before Amtrak I had a few bad experiences, the worst being on the railroad I worked for, the Boston and Maine, when an Alco Road Switcher (RS-3, I think), faded red non-reclining seat coach and combine, showed up at the North Cambridge station, first stop out of North Station, for the 3-1/2 evening "Minute Man" trip to Troy, where I was scheduled to take my girl friend attending Skidmore College (Saratoga Springs) to the "Prom", and I had planned on using the timetable noted "buffet meal service" available on the original "Flying Yankee" Budd articulated streamliner normally used on the run. The conductor had pity on me and shared his salted peanuts, and the water cooler did not run dry. But I had truly glorious meals on the great streamliners in their days, including into the Amtrak era on the Southern Crescent and the Rio Grande Zephyr. This was even true after I stopped eating meat and chicken as a half-way house to eating only Kosher (which I observe completely in Israel, but still not eating meat for philisophical reasons). Israel often has a "food trolley" on trains, but service is spotty and the food no better or worse than you would expect from prepacked celophane-wrapped (Kosher) sandwiches of various types, sometimes ice-cream, always coffee, tea, sodas. Double-deck equipment sometimes shows up on the intercity trains although meant for suburban trains, and then one does not expect the food trolley because of the steps up and down to the different levels. Reasonable food can be bought at certain, but not all, of the main stations.

[John Bakeer]

Conclusion;
IT'S A RIP-OFF ON THE TRAIN!
John B.

[Tulyar15]

Food on Briti***rains varies a lot these. Virgin who operate the West Coast Main Line from London Euston to Manchester (Stockport is near Manchester) have a poor reputation food wise while GNER who run the East Coast Main Line (London Kings X - Leeds/Edinburgh) have a good reputation. Great Western who I mostly travel on are somwhere in between. In general meals are only available if travelling first class.

[John Bakeer]

Dave,
It's not for myself I make the comparison of costs (train vs car). I bounced this situation off my son putting him in my place as being the more close in age to the typical traveller.
The arithmatic speaks for itself; £200.00 for 2 days including meals compared to £208.00 for a one day gallop with no food. Add to this the time and cost of getting to and from the train(s) against the car being door to door.
When I was in business I had to visit London often, and my home was 10 miles from the station, the car won every time.
John B.
PS. Have you ever bought food on the train?

[daveklepper]

I don't understand the train vs. car comparison. If you are not young enough to enjoy a round trip by train in one day, then how can you compare relaxing on the train with the work of driving? Obvioiusly, if you have put in three hours of driving and then gad about London, you are in no shape to put in another three hours to drive home. But if you relax on the train, have breakfast while traveling to save time, at about the same cost as breakast your second morning at the hotel, gad about London, see your family member, and then catch the last train back to Stockport, you don't need to spend money on a Hotel. That is what I would do in your situation, but chason a son gut as the French say, but partdon my spelling. What time does the last train leave London for Stockport anyway? Can one buy a good meal on the London - Stockport service? Or should one "pack a lunch" or "brown bag it"?

[John Bakeer]

Murphy,
Unfortunately; the answer to your query is yes and no.
When the previous administration privatised the railways, they stitched up the legislation in such a way that it is nie impossible to redress a lot of the bad things about it. My guess (and the opinions of many) is that it was primarily designed as a get rich quick system for the city at the expense of the travelling public. ie. commuters with little alternative means of transport..
John B.

[Murphy Siding]

John: Are the passenger train operators all privately owned, and able to set their own fares, or are there some government agencies involved that effect pricing?

[John Bakeer]

To change the drift,
My wife and I need to travel to london (a day trip) to see a family member. I go on line to book a ticket from Stockport (WCML) to Euston, eeek! £204.00. for a 320 mile round trip,=64 pence per mile. The car we have costs 40 pence a mile = £128.00. Or just on the cost of fuel at 97 pence a litre and 53 miles per gallon (4.546 litres to a gallon)= 320/53x4.546x0.97=£12.00. Unfortunately my health means we will need an overnight stay, so add meals and an hotel for the night, say £120.00. So it means we can spend an extra day in the City for £132.00. a saving of £72.00. For you guys over the pond, latest exchange rate- £1.00=$1.87 US. $2.11 Can.
The British Parliamentary Transport Committee has spoken out against the "Exhorbitant" railfares that are driving people off the trains.
As an engineer of close on 50 years experience, I always consulted with operators before purchasing new plant or equipment. After all, to get the best out of man and machine it is essential that they are happy with each other.
John B.

[Simon Reed]

BR60103 - in later BR days (and in particular Classes 58 and 60) cabs were designed in close consultation with Railway Unions, so the people who actually spent their working day in them could have some comment on their own comfort and safety.

I understand that one of the principal complaints about the early build 66's is the level of noise and vibration in the cab.

I detect a wheel coming full circle here!

[BR60103]

When I saw the class 66 diesels being built in London (Ontario), the cabs were brought in from somewhere else. It's possible that the only bit actually shaped in the plant was the frame.
Incidentally, for testing they added a knuckle (buckeye) coupling to the loco. They had a heavy metal framework that fastened on to the buffer mounting holes.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

Tulyar,
I take on that I was incorrect about the Deltics being built in Yorkshire (wikipedia has a good write up) and that they were built/ assembled in Lanashire just across the pennines. At the time of their manufacture I was working at Thornbury (EEhave/had a factory there) just outside Bradford where a lot of the electrical bits were made, hence my error.
The Newton-le-Willows site is a sad place, just a few bits of track here and there with the place broken up into industrial units, there was an outfit there re-furbishing old steam boilers (not Loco) when I last visited.
John B.

I met a chap who works for what used to be English Electric at Preston on a Portguese railtour a couple of years ago. He said Alstom had not entirely closed Preston. In addition to keeping the Research facility there, he says they've mothballed part of the plant in the hope that if orders pick up they could make traction motors there.

Your point about the plant in Bradford is very pertinent. People often forget that though a car (or a loco!) may be built in one place, often the components are made all over the place. For instance, the Japanese Railways recently purchased some DMU's which were assembled in Japan but their Cummins diesel engines were made in Britain (as were those in the Japanese built DMU's supplied to Irish Rail 10 years ago!

Meanwhile the honour of being the first non-steam preserved loco to work a railtour on our national network fell to a Doncaster product - Southern class 71 electric loco E5001!

[John Bakeer]

Among the semi enclosed cab classes were; Britannia, Clan, 5MT 4-6-0,4MT 4-6-0,4MT 2-6-0, 3MT 2-6-0, 2MT 2-6-0, all BR standard designs. I believe one or two pre nationalisation companies tried the enclosed cab (SR, LMS, MR. LNWR, L&Y etc.)
It should be remembered that almost without exception British locomotives were hand fired making a fully enclosed cab impractical, hence the rear of the cab was in fact the front of the tender. Having once travelled on the footplate of a Britannia from Leeds to Huddersfield, I found it was quite draughty. Virtually all classes of modern tank engine had enclosed cabs as they were designed to be bi-directional.
John B.

[BR60103]

It was a great advance when they put sides on the cabs -- after they put the front sheet on.
Someone referred to a loco as "one of Churchward's bum-freezers". (see if that makes it past the censors).
It was within living memory that a couple of classes of steamers had a cab sort of thing built on the tender for reverse running.
Pneumonia is good for the pension plan.

[Murphy Siding]

I started re-reading The Railway Series to my youngest son, age 7. He was curious why all the steam locomotives are built *open* on the back? Why wasn't the engineer's area enclosed? Was it tradition, that the engineer had to be out in the weather? It seems to me, that even the late steam locomotives didn't have enclosures.

[Simon Reed]

The English Electric factory in Thornbury has long closed.

It was primarily a component assembly plant but, prior to takeover by EE, was called ***, Kerr and Co. and made trams (streetcars).

As I recall the last operational bit of the once huge English Electric empire was the place inside Queensville curve on the WCML at Stafford; that belonged to GEC last time I looked.

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar,
I take on that I was incorrect about the Deltics being built in Yorkshire (wikipedia has a good write up) and that they were built/ assembled in Lanashire just across the pennines. At the time of their manufacture I was working at Thornbury (EEhave/had a factory there) just outside Bradford where a lot of the electrical bits were made, hence my error.
The Newton-le-Willows site is a sad place, just a few bits of track here and there with the place broken up into industrial units, there was an outfit there re-furbishing old steam boilers (not Loco) when I last visited.
John B.

[BR60103]

Metro:
I live just outside Toronto. We just had the Great Briti***rain Show - the largest and best all-British railway show in North America. (I say without fear of contradiction -- there isn't another one.)
We had a pile of dealers there.
Also try http://home.ca.inter.net/~brmna/index.html, the British Railway Modellers of North America. They have a dealers area on their site. Might be one near you.
Do you get to Toronto often? I can find some dealers for you.

[Anonymous]

Regarding the modelling question, you may be best using a bit of modeller's license in a real location. For example, Aberystwyth on the West Wales coast. The usual service is a 2-car Class 158 DMU (offered by Bachmann in the right colour scheme, or at least, they offer the livery of the last one I saw a few weeks ago!) but we've also had timber trains (the Railtrack MPVs aren't available RTR but they did send a Class 37 as backup on the first run, so you could stretch reality and use the Bachmann model with Cambrian timber wagon kits). We also get railtours, so pretty much any loco you like the look of could haul these with a rake of MK1/MK2 coaches (Bachmann offer these again). The '37 could easily be used on a railtour as well as on the timber trains.

A few links:

http://www.garethbayer.co.uk/wotw/ Wagons on the Web - useful info on freight stock.
http://www.cambrianmodels.co.uk/4frame.html Cambrian Models - they offer timber wagon kits. You can buy these (along with wheels, couplers, etc) from www.mainlytrains.com

[daveklepper]

Simon, I checked and my friend was referring to an earlier visit regarding the GM engined Brush diesels. Thanks for the correction.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

QUOTE: Originally posted by METRO

Alright all, I could use a bit of help.

I'm toying with the idea of building a small British layout in OO, probably a 4'x'8' set in current times. Now I've always loved the heavy passenger nature of Brit railroading, would I be able to run some commuter passenger, as well as some industrial shunting, on such a small layout and have it be not toy-like?

Also, my four things I'd like to include would be (in order of importaince)
1: commuter passenger operations
2: industrial shunting
3: run-through distance passenger
4: local freight operations
Does anyone have any ideas for a prototypical area where I could have those?

Finally, I've been looking on the Hornby website at all those wonderful British models avalible to everyone except those in the United States and Canada, does anyone know where I'd be able to get UK equipment here in the USA (Milwaukee) or in Canada (Toronto) or websites that would ship to the states.

Thanks mates!
Cheers!
~METRO

Would any area in Britain have all that in a compressed area?

I can think of quite a few areas. AS I've mentioned before, one of the shortest freight flows in Britain is one the Isle of Sheppey, where steel scrap is taken from the scrapyard at Queenborough to the steelworks at Sheerness a distance of less than 10 miles. The island is connected to the mainland by a road and rail lifting bridge. The line to Sheerness is double track as far as the bridge on the mainland side then the rest of it is single track with a passing loop and Queenborough and a run round loop at the terminus at Sheerness. The scrapyard's internal rail network also includes a branch to a nearby harbour for both import and export of steel. The line is electrified on 3rd rail

Further west in Cornwall, the Newquay branch still has a number of freight sidings serving China clay pits. In summer it still sees the occassional loco hauled passenger train plus HSTs but loco hauled trains now have to be top and tailed (like my railtour!) as the run round loop at Newquay was removed in the 1980's. I have also previously commented on the Looe branch in Cornwall - with its 180 degree curves it provides the prototype for just about everything! You wouldn't think an EMD cl 66 would get round those curves but they do!

In SW Wales the Milford Haven line includes several sidings serving oil refineries. Up till the 1980's Milford Haven also had loco hauled passengers including an overnight sleeper from Paddington. The neighbouring port of Fishguard used to see tractors and cars exported to Ireland while the nearby naval stores depot at Trecwm was also rail served. (I gather there's talk of it re-eopening as a container terminal).

[John Bakeer]

Metro/Murphy,
USA imprters of British outline advertise in Model Railroader, they also advertise on this web site.
Also visit <www.peco-uk.com> They publish a booklet on small layout plans which may help.
Huddersfield in the old West Riding of Yorkshire had just about everything with the gas works siding running down the middle of the street, but you will not find anything like this today, it all died out in the 60s. So you are looking at late steam/early deisel era.
John B.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by METRO

Alright all, I could use a bit of help.

I'm toying with the idea of building a small British layout in OO, probably a 4'x'8' set in current times. Now I've always loved the heavy passenger nature of Brit railroading, would I be able to run some commuter passenger, as well as some industrial shunting, on such a small layout and have it be not toy-like?

Also, my four things I'd like to include would be (in order of importaince)
1: commuter passenger operations
2: industrial shunting
3: run-through distance passenger
4: local freight operations
Does anyone have any ideas for a prototypical area where I could have those?

Finally, I've been looking on the Hornby website at all those wonderful British models avalible to everyone except those in the United States and Canada, does anyone know where I'd be able to get UK equipment here in the USA (Milwaukee) or in Canada (Toronto) or websites that would ship to the states.

Thanks mates!
Cheers!
~METRO

Would any area in Britain have all that in a compressed area?

[Simon Reed]

Bachmann UK and Heljan are also manufacturers of UK prototypes well worth looking into.

Whatever happened to the old "what are we listening to?" subtext? I ask because I've just dug out an old Jesus and Mary Chain CD and am enjoying it immensly.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by METRO

Alright all, I could use a bit of help.

Finally, I've been looking on the Hornby website at all those wonderful British models avalible to everyone except those in the United States and Canada, does anyone know where I'd be able to get UK equipment here in the USA (Milwaukee) or in Canada (Toronto) or websites that would ship to the states.

Thanks mates!
Cheers!
~METRO

Ads for these two hobby stores in June MR indicate they carry Hornby products:

Broughdale Hobby 1444 Glenora Drive, London, Ontario, www.rrhobby.ca

The Doll House & Train Emporium, 24 John Street, Port Hope, Ontario, www.thetrainemporium.com

[:)]

[Simon Reed]

Metro - where do you want to start??

This link might give you a few ideas generally :- http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/

What era are you thinking of? My initial thought is that you're looking to pack a lot into 4'x8' although if you were to set your timescale (if that's important to you) in the '60's when wagonload freight still ruled you might get away with it.

If you're wanting the diesel era this link could be useful:- http://www.demu.co.uk/ and it has a forum too. BR60103 - who appears on here on here occasionally - is, I think, a Canadian based modeller of UK prototypes and may also be able to help.

UK model railway magazines that you might want to try to subscribe to are:-
Railway Modeller - http://www.peco-uk.com/rm/rm_home.htm
British Railway Modelling - http://www.brmodelling.com/main/default.asp
Modelrail - http://www.greatmagazines.co.uk/store/displaystore.asp?sid=356

I wish you luck - I model British modern image (1991-4) for my club layout and Conrail/NJT for my home layout. If you need any further advice, or help, or encouragement feel free to e-mail me or contact me through these pages.

I missed the Cup Final as I was at work. I'm sure it was'nt as good as Barrow - v - Leek Town in the FA Vase at Wembley in 1990. I'd just passed my PSV test (bus driving license, USA folks) the previous week and drove 53 Barrow fans back home after leaping up and down at their 4 - 2 victory.

And as for North - South divides...I was born in Lancashire, brought up in Cumberland, then Cumbria and now live in Yorkshire with a native of Milngavie, Glasgow. I've grown out of territorial loyalties by necessity!

[METRO]

Alright all, I could use a bit of help.

I'm toying with the idea of building a small British layout in OO, probably a 4'x'8' set in current times. Now I've always loved the heavy passenger nature of Brit railroading, would I be able to run some commuter passenger, as well as some industrial shunting, on such a small layout and have it be not toy-like?

Also, my four things I'd like to include would be (in order of importaince)
1: commuter passenger operations
2: industrial shunting
3: run-through distance passenger
4: local freight operations
Does anyone have any ideas for a prototypical area where I could have those?

Finally, I've been looking on the Hornby website at all those wonderful British models avalible to everyone except those in the United States and Canada, does anyone know where I'd be able to get UK equipment here in the USA (Milwaukee) or in Canada (Toronto) or websites that would ship to the states.

Thanks mates!
Cheers!
~METRO

[Anonymous]

Its a bit duller here than those pics at minute me'andsome!

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

Yes, Cornwall is one of the nicest parts of Britain.

Yes indeed! See link - unfortunately no trains seen in photos so far.
http://www.cornwallcam.co.uk/
[:)]