British Railway Operations

[Simon Reed]

The Barclay was'nt quite "completed in just a year" although in preservation terms it was a very quick restoration.

It was presumed to be a wreck and indeed looked like one because much of it's platework was wasted. On closer inspection, however, the frames were sound, the boiler and firebox were'nt bad and cylinders and motion were intact.

A lot of ancillary bits were missing but Barclay components are relatively easy to come by, and a new cab, tender and tanks have been fabricated.

As Townsend surmises it was built for industrial use, namely a Scottish ironworks and was then sold to a colliery. It never saw mainline service or passenger work so ironically, although it is now in steam, one of the last big jobs is to fit a vacuum braking system so it can work it's first ever passenger trains.

It is, you will note, an 0-6-0T - ie a side tank design so it has a very "main line" look about it.

Cogload - my brother's partner commutes daily from Kings Cross Thameslink to East Croydon. Should I tell him to get a hard hat?

[Anonymous]

Me thinks cogland calling Bedford - Brighton a tram line is a bit of a joke. Thameslink (FCC) trains are normal EMU's. I'm not very good at posting links or computers in general, but if you Google Manchester Metrolink or Sheffield Super tram, you should get to something that shows you what a Briti***ram looks like.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

On a personal note Cogload's brother has been accepted by First Capital Connect (Thameslink) as a trainee Driver (Engineer) for thier electric "tram" system from Bedford - Brighton. So good news and I would strongly advise everybody not to travel that route for a few years!

If Britain runs a lot of electric passenger trains, where do you draw the line between what is a tram, and what is a train?

[Anonymous]

News from Cogload country. Looks like the China Clay dries have stopped loading on saturdays now, so I would photograph the Traffic if you are that way inclined sooner rather than later.

Even the long distance Cement traffic into Moorswater has basically halved. However there are some bright spots on the (distant) horizon, however as the saying goes we shall wait and see.

On a personal note Cogload's brother has been accepted by First Capital Connect (Thameslink) as a trainee Driver (Engineer) for thier electric "tram" system from Bedford - Brighton. So good news and I would strongly advise everybody not to travel that route for a few years!

[Anonymous]

The haulage on my trip on the Cresent was an AEM7 New York - Washington and a pair of Genesis Diesels to New Orleans. I'm affraid i've never been a train spotter so i can't tell you what the numbers were. We were late leaving Washington so saw a bit of station activety. I am suprised at the amount of "pottering about" there seemed to be and how many trains are still loco hauled. I Britain its all multiple units (almost) and before that coaching stock was fixed formation. Don Phillips has little dig at European Passenger trains in the July issue that i got today, but from the opperators point of view you can relly sweat the assets with push pull and multiple unit stock and cut right down on light engin moves and ECS working. Any way rant over.

Dave, the Lakeside and Haverthwaite railway is standard guage. I dont know the engine in question but Andrew Barclay were a private Scotish locomotive builder and most of thier products were for industrial use so this engine probably spent its life shunting in a coal mine yard or factory. 0-6-0's were common in suburban service out of Liverpool St mainly but they were side tanks. After WWI 0-6-2's 0-4-4's and 2-6-2's tended to be common suburban steam power.. Saddle tanks tended to be for shunting only.

[daveklepper]

Is that standard gauge? Was that a locomotive generally used in suburban service? Which railroad and where?

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

Several pages ago you asked how many operational standard gauge steam loco's are operable here. Add one! My good friend Alec Sharphouse has just returned his 1911 Barclay 0-6-0T to steam at the Lakeside and Haverthwaite Railway. Photo's to follow.

Is this the loco mentioned in "Heritage Railway" magazine as being restored in under a year?

[Simon Reed]

The Queen's Silver Jubilee was 1977.

I've only been to the Isle of Man twice - once with my school in 1984 and then in 1993 for the Centenary celebrations of the electric railway reaching it's northernmost destination, Ramsey.

It is a fantastic place and the people are incredibly friendly and accomodating.

I think there's a real sense of regret that the Peel branch of the steam railway was closed. I believe that the end was brought about the cost of maintaining the infrastructure which, on a small island, is a decisive factor.

Having said that the bus service is extremely comprehensive so there is still a viable public transport provision.

Several pages ago you asked how many operational standard gauge steam loco's are operable here. Add one! My good friend Alec Sharphouse has just returned his 1911 Barclay 0-6-0T to steam at the Lakeside and Haverthwaite Railway. Photo's to follow.

[daveklepper]

I visited Blackpool in 1962 and twice since them. In 1962 it was Central Station, I did ride most if the Coastal Tramway and then rode to Fleetwood and took the ferry to the Isle of Man where I road all three steam lines then runniing, as well as the east coast tram and Saifell Mountain line, and of course the Douglas horsecar line, including from the ferry to the hotel and to and from the Isle of Man interurban. What year was the Queen's 25 Anniversary? That was the year I lead an ERA tour, wherein I did try to repeat for the group what I had done in 1962, but now we arrived at Blackpool North and now only one of the three steam lines on the Isle of Man was still running. Then in 1994 I stopped briefly in Blackpool and once again rode the tram, but did not go on to the Isle of Man. Which I regret, I love the place!

[Simon Reed]

Dave - two operators serve Blackpool - Transpennine and Northern Rail.

Transpennine operate an hourly York-Leeds-Bradford-Blackburn-Blackpool North service.

Northern operate a far more frequent service, primarily from Manchester.

They also operate the Blackpool South branch which is essentially a very long siding, worked on the "one engine in steam" principle discussed earlier.

The coastal tramway is nothing to do with the National rail network and is owned and operated by the municipality of Blackpool, primarily using trams (streetcars) built in the 1930's!

Some links:- http://www.northernrail.org/ and http://www.webtramways.com/fts/ - to explain the latter Fylde is the generic name for the peninsula that Blackpool is on.

You've mentioned that you travelled extensively in Britain in the 1960's. Did you go to Blackpool? If so the likelihood is that you went to Blackpool Central station, which is now a freeway and a vast car and bus park! Tempus Fugit.

[John Bakeer]

Dave,
I have just checcked Liverpool -Blackpool trains; There are 5 tonight 6.00pm- midnight.
All requiring 1, 2 or 3 changes. John B.

[daveklepper]

I notice that TransPennine serves North Blackpool. Does anyone else (besides the seacoast tramline) serve Blackpool? Is there any direct service from Liverpool to Blackpool?

[Tulyar15]

Meanwhile, I've had a few days off work which I've spent with my brother photographing and filming trains, mostly in S. Wales but also at Banbury (see http://www.roscalen.com/signals/Banbury/index.htm on my brother's site).

One of the places we visited in Wales was Abercynon, the very cradle of railways. It is hear that the Pen-y-darren tramroad used to start. It was on this tramway that Richard Trevithick's 1804 loco ran. To-day you can walk along much of the tramway route - it follows the east bank of the River Taff between Abercynon and Merthyr whilst the present rail line (opened 1841) follows the west bank. The tramroad course starts by the Navigation Inn (which was just called the New Inn in Trevithick's day) and there is a small monument to Trevithick by the pub.

Appropriately Abercynon still has a manual signal box and a friendly couple allowed us to take some photos looking across the valley from their garden!

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

The July issue of Trains Magazine has an article about the Canadian VIA Ocean passenger train. It explains that in 2000, VIA bought 139 unfinished" British cars that were commisioned by BR for a Channel Tunnel overnight service that fell victim to the privatization initiative". It goes on to say that there were issues with the "smaller European cars". How much smaller are they? Some of you who have ridden trains on both sides of the Atlantic-how would you compare the size? Thanks

These "Nightstar" cars are not as large as most "European" cars but are close to the maximum size for "British" cars as they were intended to run through overnight services to provincial cities north of London on the BR network.

They are (off the top of my head) 75 feet long, 9 feet wide (at the widest part of the curved body) and 12'6" to 13' tall.

A standard 1950s streamliner car as used by VIA on the "Canadian" would be 85 feet long, 10 feet wide over body and 14 feet (to 14'6") high (excluding the domes, of course).

A "Superliner" or similar two level car wil be 16 feet to 17 feet tall but otherwise like a streamliner in width and length.

The existing VIA LRC cars designed for tilting in curves, are lower in height than standard North American cars and somewhat similar in overall appearance to the "Rennaissance" cars as the ex "Nightstar" stock is called. The Amtrak "Acela" cars are similar to the LRC vehicles and smaller than standard cars too.

M636C

[Murphy Siding]

The July issue of Trains Magazine has an article about the Canadian VIA Ocean passenger train. It explains that in 2000, VIA bought 139 unfinished" British cars that were commisioned by BR for a Channel Tunnel overnight service that fell victim to the privatization initiative". It goes on to say that there were issues with the "smaller European cars". How much smaller are they? Some of you who have ridden trains on both sides of the Atlantic-how would you compare the size? Thanks

[Simon Reed]

Oh dear, John.

I'm looking forward to the World Cup, as usual, but won't be getting drunk or behaving anti-socially - no more than usual anyway! Sadly I've pulled a 12 hour shift on Saturday so can only listen to England - Paraguay. Anyway, after the Sri Lanka fiasco today we need something to cling to!

Townsend - my top delay on Amtrak was six hours and that's not a big one. I think - and this is a thumbnail think - that the problem lies in very vague scheduling and what we might best call "operational contingencies".

Basically this is what single track routes with heavy traffic do for you. Train 1 leaves point A 30 minutes late. Train 2 leaves point B on time. They're booked to meet and pass at point C, midway through the journey.

Hey presto - now we have two late running trains, with consequential knock-on effects.

My experience is, of course, a generalisation but some roads are far better at working around the physical restrictions their infrastructure imposes upon them than others. The bottom line, though, is that all of Amtrak's Class 1 hosts would far rather expedite their revenue earning freights than their FRA mandated passenger trains.

Never mind that, though. Did you enjoy it? And out of itching curiosity what were your locos? You'll have had an AEM7 New York-Washinghton and I only need one of them for haulage, hence my itchyness.

And I'm down to 101 Genesis, three of which will never work again...

[Murphy Siding]

No apologies needed. We all need a good chuckle now and then.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

Isambard: I've always enjoyed your addition to the discussions. However, I'm not so sure I agree with your math there.[;)]

Shucks, looks as if I flunked a math test again! My apologies to Murphy and other alert readers.
[:)]

[John Bakeer]

The subject of one engine in steam is settled.(I trust).
A site I use for guidance on railroad matters is <www.railway-technical.com> very enlightening.
Of f subject = I am one of those (many) people that are left completely cold by the mention of any passtime that requires the participants to get drunk, fight and generally make life hell for the rest of us; in order to watch a number of numbskulls chase a ball around a field. The worlds greatest sporting event (and by far the toughest) is the Tour de France. Compare Lance Armstrong to the inflated ego trippers that play Footy.
If I could get to planet Zog for the next six weeks? I would be on the next train.
Rant over.
Townsend,
The American railroads are frieght first with Amtrak imposed on them, so revenue from frieght makes the need to keep Amtrak passengers happy less important. Over here the passenger train has alwas had priority
John B.

[BR60103]

Cogload: for train order operation, we need a whole new thread. I think we had one on "time table and train order" operation.
My signalling observations only date back to 60s on a double track line with electric light signals. The recent experience is centralised traffic control. The "dark" lines seem to operate more like the early railways: "The train was late so we sent a locomotive down the line to look for it."

I have a slide of the control board in Millerhill yard in 1976. I showed it to a fellow in our club and he asked "Where's the next panel? that's where I worked."

[Murphy Siding]

Isambard: I've always enjoyed your addition to the discussions. However, I'm not so sure I agree with your math there.[;)]

[Isambard]

Looking back I see that Murphy kicked off this very interesting and rambling thread on 27 July '05, about 300 days ago. With 20,741 visits to now, according to the counter, that works out to an average of about 6,900 visits a day. Impressive!
Thanks for the kick-off Murphy and thanks to the many other contributors.
[:)]

[Anonymous]

Have just come back from the USA and had a great time. Didn't get chance to do much train watching as i was on holiday with some non railfan mates, but did ride from New York to New Orleans by train. We were 2 hours late into New Orleans which according to the staff is pretty good performance, an acceptable level of lateness so to speak. Apparently a few weeks erlier the train had been so late that a passenger had called 911 to report that they had been kidnaped by Amtrack. I'm still interested as to how a scheduled railroad like Norfolk and Southern can run a passenger train so late. After all if you have a scheduled railway you can plan on having trains stood in sidings for not that long and you can see the best times to start trains off so they never sit more than 5 min in a loop. If you just validade of a hedway and SRT table and have train times as ballpark figures does that not result in long waits in sidings for trains. I think this may have been covered before but when a thread getts to 65 pages you forget what was on page 15.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

We Americans were lucky in 1994 when we got to host the Football World Cup (as opposed to the Rugby World Cup) and the airfares across the Atlantic were a bit too dear for most of the hooligans. Let's hope that they don't muck up the World's Greatest Sporting Event.

[Anonymous]

OT: Don't mention the war.

LONDON, June 1 — They have been warned, as always, not to rampage through the streets, destroying things and attacking people. But as England's soccer fans prepare to visit Germany for the World Cup this month, another item has been added to their long "verboten" list: Don't mention the war.

"It's not a joke," Charles Clarke, then the home secretary, warned at a pre-World Cup briefing earlier this spring. "It is not a comic thing to do. It is totally insulting and wrong."

That means, basically, no getting drunk and goose-stepping in a would-be humorous manner. No Nazi salutes. No shouting "Sieg Heil!" at the referees. No impromptu finger-under-the-nose Hitler mustaches.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/02/world/europe/02england.html

Dave

[Hugh Jampton]

Anything over 70 is considered to be a hot day, over 75 and the railway's go into a sort of meltdown as speed restrictions are put on nearly every bit of CWR in the country for fear of buckling. Above that and the world is coming to an end.
At the other end of the scale anything below 30 is considered cold. Below 25 and the railways go into a sort of meltdown as speed restrictions are put on nearly every bit of CWR in the country for fear of rail breaks.
I'd hate for these people to have to spend a year in Toronto.

[Murphy Siding]

Simon:Thanks for the explanation. The *steam* part had me baffled. It's kind of like our railroads having a sign before a crossing, with the letter "W", for whistle, when they haven't had whistles for 50+ years.

cogload: Sounds like the beach is calling. What is considered a hot day in Britain?

[Anonymous]

Simon

As I have very little Idea on the principles of NA signalling, i will have to read what are train orders etc. equated to viz "one train in steam" before coming to any conclusion.

Suffice to say that there seems to be more permissive working allowed over the pond than is accepted here, mind you, there seems to be more permissive working allowed on the continent than there is here.

Off topic (1) Music of the day is a touch of the Led Zeppellin.
Off topic (2) - Rest Day Friday, Sun is shining, Rest Day Saturday - forecast is nice and hot. Hmmm. I think the beach is calling.

[Simon Reed]

It's terminology dating from..well, steam days that has never really been updated.

What it means is that there is a single train effectively "locked in" on a single track route, the locomotive of which can move freely about without fear of another train getting into it's sphere of operation.

For what it's worth, however, I think John is wrong by default.

I'm not sure that a route operated under train orders equates satisfactorily to a route operated under restricted block. Is the "one train in steam" rule necessarily applicable on a road with a single booked working a day? I don't know, this is Cogload territory.

Anyway - I've been having a play on the new 185 units today. Very impressive over a short distance. They're extremely sharp off the mark and the ride is superb compared to a 158. Interiors are OK, but I tend to think 158 interiors are a bit over-refined for what they do anyway.

Overall, if the reliability matches the hype (and this has yet to be tested) I think we've got a good unit here.

Sorry American and Israeli friends! These are new DMU's for the Transpennine services in the North of England - see http://www.tpexpress.co.uk/ .

Very nice too, with 100mph capability. Judging by the way 185114 got away from a check at Heaton Lodge behind the Binliners this afternoon 100 will be easy.

[Murphy Siding]

John B. I don't quite get the reference to *steam* in your post above. Can you translate the....English into......English for me?[:)] Thanks