British Railway Operations

[Simon Reed]

I'm not sure about Gerald Fiennes family tree although it's not a common surname so there may be some acting/exploring links.

He was the GM of BR's Eastern Region in the 50's and 60's - as Cogload suggests it's fascinating and, at times, mind-boggling reading.

I'm no war historian but I seem to recall a tale that the Germans set out to bomb Crewe Works one night. On the same night some local youths accidentally set fire to a hay barn about five miles South of Crewe. The German bomb aimers, upon seeing fire on the horizon during a blackout, assumed that they'd spotted the foundries and bombed a lot of agriculural land around Madeley.

Off railway topic but one of my other passions is trolleybuses. The big trolleybus museum in the UK is at Sandtoft, which is in the corner of a huge WWII RAF airfield. Sandtoft was a crash landing field. It had very long runways and was easy to find without navigational aids.

The Germans had something similar at Vegesack, near Bremen. There was a sort of gentlemans agreement that neither field would ever be bombed, which was honoured by the USAAFalso.

We can't fight wars these days unless they're internecine and collusive. The UK should'nt - and does not need to - get involved in any wars.

Excuse my justified despair. I've been watching the news and wondering why I pay tax to kill innocent people.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

The German long range bombers were Heinkels, Mescherschmidts and Junkers with twin piston engines. The Stuka was specifically a ground support aircraft and on a few raids against south coast radar were slaughtered as the fighter escorts had only about 15 minutes fuel available after they had crossed the channel, the Stuka had some success against allied coastal shipping in the early days, but better escorts, barrage balloons and british fighters soon saw them off.
Barnsley town hall is built of white (Portland?) stone and stands on a low hill 16 miles north of Sheffield. It was used as the land mark by the bombers as it is the highest point inland from the North Sea short of the Pennines, it was just 'turn left for Sheffield and the yards at Tinsley'.
Only in the later stages of the war were german fighters used as light bombers but the 250kg max. bomb ruined the handling making them vulnerable to ground fire.
I have some photo's of damaged railway infrastructure York Shed, Paddington and a lot of areas around London etc. they were always back in action within a couple of days. A credit to the British railwaymen and women of the day.
I had family in Manchester living near the large Ardwick goods depot, to the best of my knowledge although the Luftwaffe did their best to wreck it they hit everything around and left it virtually unscathed.
John B.

Close, John but no Messerschmidt bombers, the third manufacturer of German twin engine bombers was Dornier. If Glasgow was never hit it was for one of two reasons, either it was a difficult night target or it was a target but bad weather prevented it. The German 5th Air Force based in Norway was very roughly handled by the RAF's Northern Fighter Group even though at the start it had the oldest fighter aircraft including Defiants, and the last Gladiator Sqd.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

Isambard..Are you sure it wasn't flattened after the Orangemen took a wrong turn into Parkhead?

Most of the major cities were bombed if not by the Germans then by the planners after the war. Plymouth is a prime example. Did sod all though. Rather like Hamburg, Cologne and Dresden did sod all at the end of the war in terms of making the war end quicker.

Gerry Fiennes' book "I Tried to run a Railway" which incidentally is an utter classic, is good reading on this subject.

Orangemen, Parkhead? Must be a soccer reference (Celtic Stadium?)

City planners could have done better by Southampton too, where one of my sons and his wife live.

Must try to get hold of Fiennes book. Is he one of the acting and explorer family Fiennes?

[:)]

[Anonymous]

Isambard..Are you sure it wasn't flattened after the Orangemen took a wrong turn into Parkhead?

Most of the major cities were bombed if not by the Germans then by the planners after the war. Plymouth is a prime example. Did sod all though. Rather like Hamburg, Cologne and Dresden did sod all at the end of the war in terms of making the war end quicker.

Gerry Fiennes' book "I Tried to run a Railway" which incidentally is an utter classic, is good reading on this subject.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

I'm afraid I 'm not qualified to answer your question Murphy. I read somewhere that Glasgow was the only major city in Britain that escaped bombing because it was out of range of German bombers, even after they'd occuppied Norway. But given that they bombed Belfast (and also Dublin, alleged by mistake) I'd have thought they could have bombed Glasgow.

To the north of Worcester, at Stourport-on-Severn, until recently there was coal fired power station. Apparrently it escaped the attention of the Luftwaffe because they used it as a landmark! Basically they would follow the River Severn inland until they saw Stourport power station, then they knew it was time to turn right for Birmingham and bombing!

Glasgow, a major industrial city, was indeed heavily bombed. In 1956 while visiting relatives there I saw large areas that had been flattened, including where my relatives lived at the time.

[John Bakeer]

The German long range bombers were Heinkels, Mescherschmidts and Junkers with twin piston engines. The Stuka was specifically a ground support aircraft and on a few raids against south coast radar were slaughtered as the fighter escorts had only about 15 minutes fuel available after they had crossed the channel, the Stuka had some success against allied coastal shipping in the early days, but better escorts, barrage balloons and british fighters soon saw them off.
Barnsley town hall is built of white (Portland?) stone and stands on a low hill 16 miles north of Sheffield. It was used as the land mark by the bombers as it is the highest point inland from the North Sea short of the Pennines, it was just 'turn left for Sheffield and the yards at Tinsley'.
Only in the later stages of the war were german fighters used as light bombers but the 250kg max. bomb ruined the handling making them vulnerable to ground fire.
I have some photo's of damaged railway infrastructure York Shed, Paddington and a lot of areas around London etc. they were always back in action within a couple of days. A credit to the British railwaymen and women of the day.
I had family in Manchester living near the large Ardwick goods depot, to the best of my knowledge although the Luftwaffe did their best to wreck it they hit everything around and left it virtually unscathed.
John B.

[Tulyar15]

I'm afraid I 'm not qualified to answer your question Murphy. I read somewhere that Glasgow was the only major city in Britain that escaped bombing because it was out of range of German bombers, even after they'd occuppied Norway. But given that they bombed Belfast (and also Dublin, alleged by mistake) I'd have thought they could have bombed Glasgow.

To the north of Worcester, at Stourport-on-Severn, until recently there was coal fired power station. Apparrently it escaped the attention of the Luftwaffe because they used it as a landmark! Basically they would follow the River Severn inland until they saw Stourport power station, then they knew it was time to turn right for Birmingham and bombing!

[daveklepper]

There were bombs dropped on railway targets in the London area during WWII. A noise control expert names Martin Hirshorn is about to have his book "Is Anybody Listening" published, and I was asked to contribute to the dust jacket, and so I read the draft. Thanks to a fairly well-off American aunt, he was able to escape the *** and worked in London duriing WWII at a war-products chemical factory and he describes the bombing rades. My own memory suggests the German bombers were "Stukas" or some similar name.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by beaulieu

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I'm looking at a picture of an oil painting. It is by Robert Bailey, depicting German ME 109's during the Battle of Britain ,dropping 250kg bombs on trains and tracks "near London....along the busy waterfront". A signal building and ocean freighters are also in the background. Trains, WW I & WW II history, and propellor-driven warplanes are 3 things that I read a lot about. I don't recall reading much about this type of occurance. Is this fact, or fiction?

Ju-87 Stukas dropping bombs maybe, Me-109s not possible. not enough range.
I don't think the Stukas made it over London either, they did attack the Channel Ports however.

Better yet, the text says the ME-109's dropped their 250kg bombs, then went upstairs to challenge the Hurricanes and Spitfires, on what? fumes? The only thing I've ever read about stukas in the Battle of Britain had to do with them being sitting ducks to British fighters.

[beaulieu]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Murphy Siding

I'm looking at a picture of an oil painting. It is by Robert Bailey, depicting German ME 109's during the Battle of Britain ,dropping 250kg bombs on trains and tracks "near London....along the busy waterfront". A signal building and ocean freighters are also in the background. Trains, WW I & WW II history, and propellor-driven warplanes are 3 things that I read a lot about. I don't recall reading much about this type of occurance. Is this fact, or fiction?

Ju-87 Stukas dropping bombs maybe, Me-109s not possible. not enough range.
I don't think the Stukas made it over London either, they did attack the Channel Ports however.

[Murphy Siding]

I'm looking at a picture of an oil painting. It is by Robert Bailey, depicting German ME 109's during the Battle of Britain ,dropping 250kg bombs on trains and tracks "near London....along the busy waterfront". A signal building and ocean freighters are also in the background. Trains, WW I & WW II history, and propellor-driven warplanes are 3 things that I read a lot about. I don't recall reading much about this type of occurance. Is this fact, or fiction?

[Tulyar15]

Thanks for the info Simon, I'm sure we'll do that line as its pretty high on my brother's "To Do" List. He's got most of the week mapped out already.

[John Bakeer]

Simon.
60 million Brits. and they can't beet a nation with the population of Yorkshire.
John B.

[Simon Reed]

Dave - correct. Wrong line is essentially running contrary to the route signalling.

On the subject of which - I'm sure I'm telling Tulyar and brother of Tulyar stuff they already know but most of the Cumbrian Coast route is still semaphore signalled, with some very interesting signalbox architecture.

Heading South from Carlisle boxes that spring to mind as being a bit special are St. Bees, Askam, Barrow North (which still uses it's original 1907 frame) and Arnside.

Maryport used to be a bit good, and very interestingly signalled, but I'm not sure if it has'nt now been incorporated into Carlisle PSB.

Enjoy - I look forward to the photos.

(13 minutes to England v Sweden and I'm still at work. Grrr!)

[daveklepper]

I gather "wrong line" means right-handed running as is usual in North America?

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar,
Don't miss out on a DMU trip over the S&C while your up there.
Sorry to say I'm a bit of a Luddite (I am a Yorkshireman) and have just not got round to a camcorder yet, I'm waiting for a pocket sized version!
I can commend Train Sim, with it you can take anything from a J94 to a Southern Pacific Cab Foreward over the Cambrian. The CB runs wrong line and the clearances are a bit tight though!
John B.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

Tulyar,
That's what is wrong with British justice! The PC Brigades rush in to see that the wrong doers human rights are protected, but to hell with the rest of us. I once had to restrain a big boy from beating my 9yo daughter and was threatened with prosecution by the plod.
I think I'll buy a big gun, the baddies over here seem to have no difficulty in getting them despite Mr Blair making ownership illegal.

Agreed! In the case I described the Judge admitted he had some sympathy for the lads but did not want to be condoning violence. They got let out early for good behaviour so they did not serve their whole sentence.

I knew an officious policeman once who was even detested by his fellow bobbies. He was obsessed with catching drinking drivers to the exclusion of all other crimes. But he made the mistake of pulling over a car load of SAS soliders who'd been camping out at a rural pub. They beat him up and left him lying in the gutter

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer
Just had a run from Aberistwyth to Pwehelli in the driving seat of a Cravens DMU per Microsoft. Going to do it for real later this summer (I hope?), as a passenger, I just can't get the hang of vacuum brakes. Hence I have a shed full of steamers in mint condition, metaphorically that is.
John B.

Ah memories! I went on the Cambrian steam specials last year. If they use a different loco I might do again this year. As it is I think I will have a ride with "Green Arrow" down to Cornwall in October. She's working a Pathfinder Tour which actually picks up at Chippenham (Wilts). A Gresley V2 2-6-2 in the West Country is not as outlandish as you might think. In Post WW2 years they regularly worked the Newcastle - Barry "Port to Port Express" as far as Swindon, whilst in the 1950s when the entire fleet of Bulleid Pacifics were grounded due to metal fatigue, some V2's were loaned to the SW Division of the Southern Region and used on Waterloo - Weymouth and Exeter expresses including the "Bournemouth Belle" Pullman train and the "Atlantic Coast Express".

To answer Murphy's question, my brother travels a fair bit in his job and sometimes takes his camera with him, particularly if he knows there are rail locations of interest where he's going. He's been taking photographs since 1970. In the summer of that year, when he was 14, our Mum bought him a week long rail rover ticket for the English Midlands and some film for his camera and he found much of interest in that week. He was already interested in signalling, have been taken to watch the trains at Malvern Link station from a very early age (as was I!).

Next month we're having a week long stay in Carlisle to photograph (and film, I now have a camcorder) the railways around there as there's still a lot of interest in that area.

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar,
That's what is wrong with British justice! The PC Brigades rush in to see that the wrong doers human rights are protected, but to hell with the rest of us. I once had to restrain a big boy from beating my 9yo daughter and was threatened with prosecution by the plod.
I think I'll buy a big gun, the baddies over here seem to have no difficulty in getting them despite Mr Blair making ownership illegal.
Just had a run from Aberistwyth to Pwehelli in the driving seat of a Cravens DMU per Microsoft. Going to do it for real later this summer (I hope?), as a passenger, I just can't get the hang of vacuum brakes. Hence I have a shed full of steamers in mint condition, metaphorically that is.
John B.

[Tulyar15]

In Birmingham (England) the inhabitants seem to regard their local rail lines as a tip. Mind you some years ago I was involved in a canal restoration project. They got these kids from one of the local rough estates to help and they got quiet into it. Then sometime afterwards I heard one of these kids had wound up in prison. It turned that what happened was a truck driver dumped a load of rubbish in a stretch of canal these kids had helped restore. Not surprisingly they tried to persuade the truck driver not to do this. When he ignored them and dumped his load his in the canal, the kids dragged him out of his cab and beat him up. Unfortunately a cop car happened to turn up just as they were beating up the truck driver so the kids got sent down.

[BR60103]

One of the British magazines used to publish pictures of how disgraceful some stations were.
It's always possible that the worst appearing sites are in locations where you wouldn't want to pull your camera out.

[Murphy Siding]

A Father's Day gift gone bad? One of my sons and I were in a used clothing store the other day. A featured item on an endcap was a pair of boxer shorts with a map of the railroads and station names of southeastern England. You never know when those would come in handy!?[;)]

[John Bakeer]

Hi Murphy,
I travel around Greater Manchester a lot and find that generally the authorities try to keep the place tidy. If they gave up? The crap in our society would quickly turn it into an utter mess. Some parts are better than others probably like your place. I remember the state of the NY and Chicago urban railroads were pretty disgusting, but your authorities are fighting back against the grafity gangs.
We have plenty of laws against filth and pollution but the judiciary take a far too lenient line on transgressors (even if they are caught?), the law is virtually ineffective. I have been a Trains subscriber for over 20 yrs, before that Railway Magazine and have noticed that the majority of railroad pictures appear to be sanitized. But who wants to display his backside to the public?
I was once travelling home from Manchester to Glossop, when passing through a particularly rough area, a piece of spiked metal railing became embedded in the metal roof of the front car. an obvious attempt to kill the driver or/and others. If the criminal was caught? (I never found out!) He/She would have received a derisory sentence.
John B.

[Murphy Siding]

Tulyar15: I went and checked out the new pics on your brother's website, very nice indeed. He must get to do a lot of traveling, chasing that hobby. I notice from the pics, that, compared to American rail lines, these look pretty neat and clean. There is some overgrown vegetation, but missing is all the litter,weeds, graffiti,falling down buildings,junkyards,and general mess, that is prevelant on a lot of American routes. Is this true of British lines in general? Or, is the photohrapher just really good about cropping the messy parts out of the photos?

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by marcimmeker

Well, then the dutch engines should be compared to the class 08. NS Class 500 and 600 had eec engines. The 15 class 700's were delivered from eec without engines and the got Thomassen engines after they arrived here.
By the way 501-510 were WD surplus and is it correct that the WD engines were based on a LMS engine?
greetings,
Marc Immeker

Yes, I think that's right. The Dutch class 500 shunters are identical to the LMS ones (BR Class 11 - but they did not last long enough to carry Tops numbers; their BR numbers were in the 12xxx series (a 'D' prefix was added from 1957). The 600 class are identical to the BR class 08's which were developed from the Class 11. The main difference was larger driving wheels . (The Southern shunters were similar to the LMS ones but had larger wheels in order to give greater clearance between the coupling rods and the 3rd rails - I think that's why BR adopted the larger wheel size for the 08's).

Yes it is my brother's who's got the website - he's just added some more pics of S. Wales - http://www.roscalen.com/signals/index.htm

[MStLfan]

Well, then the dutch engines should be compared to the class 08. NS Class 500 and 600 had eec engines. The 15 class 700's were delivered from eec without engines and the got Thomassen engines after they arrived here.
By the way 501-510 were WD surplus and is it correct that the WD engines were based on a LMS engine?
greetings,
Marc Immeker

[Simon Reed]

08 had English Electric power units, 10 originally had Lister - Blackstone power units.

It's "15's" brother who is the photographer. My brother is a bird-watcher although his partner commutes on Thameslink.

[MStLfan]

What's the difference between a class 08 and a class 10?
greetings
Marc

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

murphy. No not My brother. I think you are referring to Simon R.

cogload: I believe it is Tulyar15, whose brother did the photo work.[:)]

[John Bakeer]

I knew there was more CR stuff lurking somewhere.
John B.

[M636C]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

The Dutch have never used BR Class 20's. Strictly speaking they've never used Class 08 either - a derivative of Class 10 was built for NS.

At present ACTS are using some Class 58's, and at one point an open access company - LoversRail - was seriously considering ex BR class 31's although nothing came of this.

There are some class 20s recently returned from service with CFD in France, and I think that is caused the confusion. The Dutch had a large number of hood units that looked generally like class 20, but these were in fact licence-built US Whitcombs, at the time associated with Baldwin.

M636C