British Railway Operations

[John Bakeer]

Cogload,
My apologies for adding extra years to your age, since I retired, I sometimes wonder how I found time for work!
Some yank short lines work one engine in steam with written train orders. Their interlocking towers (where they survive) are similar in a lot of ways to UK, but because of the vast distances involved are mainly confined to large junctions and crossing/links between different rairoad companies.
John B.

[Anonymous]

Murphy...mixture of both. For the far flung signals (i.e. Cogloads First home is over 2miles away which would be a mighty long pull) then it is relay based. For the rest it is wires.

It is very clean....probabley for the snap! However we do like to keep things as tidy as possible. That photo is history in one sense as the line which was singled from Burngullow to Probus has now been redoubled again......

BR6013. Yes, still 9/10ths mechanically interlocked.

[BR60103]

Murphy:
I don't know how cogload's box is currently set up, but the traditional set up had the levers connected to sets of pipes and wires. (N.A. signalling also used the pipes). The pipes are connected to the turnouts (points, switches) because the need to be pushed and pulled. The semaphore signals had a counterbalance below the arm that pulled the signal to danger. The wire from the signalbox pulled the counterbalance the other way. If anything happened to the wire, the signal was supposed to return to danger.
Cogload: do you still have mechanical interlocking in the box or have they all been converted?
Mechanical interlocking involves having two sets of bars under the levers. The levers are connected to vertical bars, and there are horizontal bars crossing under them. the vertical bars have notches in them and the horizontal bars have things that stick in the notches. If you have a signal controlling a facing point, while the signal is at danger you can waggle the point about all you like. When you pull the signal off, (is it off c.?) it slides on of the bars over and it nestles in the notch of the point lever, locking it in position. The point can be locked either normal or reversed. If you have a line used for both directions, the signal will lock at danger the signals going the other way. Pulling the home signal off also releases the distant signal.
Sorry I took so long. I have a model interlocking frame that a friend made for his layout that works beautifully and shows the variations on locking.
There's a site on signalling at : http://www.signalbox.org/

[Murphy Siding]

I take it that the levers are simply a switch, or relay, that sends a signal to a distant signal light or switch point? From the photo of PAR box, you would have thought it was a museum set-piece. Is everything on the rail line that clean and neat?

[Anonymous]

the levers operate the signals, points/crossings (switches) andin some cases level crsooings as well. Thus they are painted.

There is a nice picture of PAR box on the frame which illustrates what I mean:

Right at the top of the picture (i.e. above the frame) there is the station diagram. This is basically a map to show the lines, track circuits, points and signals. As well as other operating items like level crossings, token/ staff machines etc etc.

On the second row there are a variety of instruments. Some of these are repeaters, to give the signaller an indication of what signals are currently showing on the ground. This is of course useful if you cant see them. The rectangular boxes are the Block Instruments which the signaller uses to indicate whether the line is clear etc. when being offered the train. Next to it is the bell, from whence you get the call attention etc (I told you that this is the height of technology!). The Instruments are co-acting. I.E. There will be one instrument for Lostwithiel here and one bell. The UP (i.e. London) Line (to Lostwithiel) will be controlled by Lostwithiel as Par is basically asking permission to pass the train on. So when the signaller in Lostwithiel turns the block to Line Clear this will be repeated in that block instrument. However when the signaller at Par is asked for a line clear FROM Lostwithiel (the Down), he will turn the handle on the instrument which will co-act in Lostwithiel's block instrument.

Right below that is the lever frame. See the row of plungers above the levers? This is the interlocking for the frame. IF you want to pull the lever you have to pu***he plunger. It acts as another line of safety, as if you try and pull the wrong lever in a particular sequence then you could end up with a sore wrist. I will come onto sequences again in a minute.

Ok below are the levers. The lever painted Yellow is a distant signal lever, the ones painted red are the Stop or Controlled signal levers, the ones painted blue are for mechanised points (or facing point locks), the ones painted black are for non mechanised points and white are spare/ not used. On the levers are white markers, these are reminders of whatever other levers have to be pulled to set a route/ sequence.

Ironically at the end of the box you can see the "Par Panel". This was put in the 1980's when Burngullow was shut and they singalled the line between Par and Probus and replaced the semaphores with lights, controlled by an axle counter system from par. There are no headcode berths on here as it is a mini panel and once the trains leave that panel and enter the track diagram there is no system for allowing this technology. It is basically a series of lights in the diagram which are circuited to each track circuit. The switches at the bottom end of the panel operate the points/ signals on that section of track.

[Murphy Siding]

Thanks cogload. That was interesting. I'll want to study up on the wikipedia link as well. Can you explain the big levers in the photos, similar to those in American interlocking towers? Do they operate switches, or signals, or ?
Thanks

[Anonymous]

Retired? I Wish......[:(!]

What does a signalman do.?Well apart from Signalling the trains safely through his or her section of line (think Towers in US/ Canadian parlance), I also spend most of the time on the phone dealing with Farm and Accomodation crossing users (there are direct links to the signalbox), issuing possessions to the S&T/PWAY gangs so they can have access to the line, keeping the TRUST system accurate by filling in the arrival and departure points.

The system of Signalling trains in Cogload Country is Absoloute Block (Mostly). As a result to operate the timetable and to create the conditions for the smooth running of service i.e. one train on one line in one section at any one time there are signalboxes still in existance at Penzance, St Erth, Roskear Junction, Truro, Par, Lostwithiel and Liskeard. The next box which is Track Circuit Block is Plymouth. Because it is TCB and lights it controls a lot larger area than the Absolute Block/ Semaphore system which is used West of that. To resignal Cornwall and use lights/ cabling required to cerate the amount of block sections to run the timetable would cost so much that it is cheaper to basically keep the existing system of signalling trains in place. Plus if it goes wrong all it needs is a bit of wire to replace.

So lets say, the box next to me offers me a train. If it is a Class1(passenger), this would be four bells. So, initially, there would be one bell (call attention), which I would then acknowledge, then there would be 4 bells. If the line is clear up to and including my clearing point (i.e. either 200yards/400 yards beyond the first STOP signal in my area of control) then I will acknoweldge the 4 Bells and then the block indicator to "Line Clear." As the signalbox next door section's (i.e. the last signal under his/her control) signal is know nas "locked by the block", the act of me turning the block indicator to Line Clear means that he/she can clear his/her section signal to a proceed aspect. When the train passes him/her and is COMPLETE WITH TAIL LAMP then he/she will send 2 Bells (Train entering Section), I will acknowledge this and then turn my Block Indicator to "Train On Line". I will then offer the train on (i.e. ask "is line clear") to the next box in turn.

There are three positions on a block indicator, Normal, Line Clear and Train on Line. This means that the rear boxes signal is now locked and when that train passes cannot give a proceed aspect until I give a "Line Clear" (2-1 train leaving section) and he or her offers me a train again. In my case I will pull my first home and distant signal, wait 12 mins, lower a set of barriers and then pull the signals which control the line through the station in sequence.

There is a track diagram above the frame. In the UK now, the station limits (roughly the area between a box's first home and section signal) is track circuited so you know where the train is. However the sections of track between the signalboxes can be "dark territory" - i.e. you have absolutely nno idea where the train is. Only experience and knowledge will give you an idea of when to pull the other signals off in your area, especially if there are crossings to contend with. In a lot of cases when the 2 bells are recieved all the signals in a signallers area of control are pulled, however it depends on what the train is timetabled to do.

I will send that bell code(2-1 and turning the blcok instrument back to line clear) to the box in rear when the train passes me complete with tail lamp and this action is repeated ad nauseum until Liskeard when the line becomes TCB and there are berths on a panel which have the trains headcode enetered. As the train passes each signal and the track circuits operate to protect that train buy turning the siggies to red (we hope), this will light up on the panel and the headcode will step up to the next berth so the signaller knows where the train is.

So that is it in a very very simple nutshell


This a very handy website I have just discovered.....
[/url] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_signalling#Timetable_operation

[John Bakeer]

David,
Your reason for messing up the Wren stock is quite valid. They really were apalling runners and the coupling system very crude. I started in British 00 in the early 60's but quickly switched to US HO and finally to N. What a shame that the nation that gave the world rairoads in the 19th century, couldn't even make decent models until the beginning of the 21st! (most of that is made in China). Arthritis and the move to sheltered accommodation has curtailed my model railroading, but I still manage to get to the odd exhibition.
Murphy,
The signalmans job is similar in a lot of ways to dispachers, we still use the absolute block system on most of our routes, train order is almost non-existant here, although a system of issuing tokens to the driver is used on single lines. Perhaps I should leave this subject to Cogload, after all, he is a retired signlman.
John B.

[BR60103]

John: sorry, but my Wrenn Pullmans are not collectible any more. The last two were bought from one of our HD experts, and he charged me $10 apiece. These ones had scale wheels, bogies cut back to take kadee couplers, noles drilled in the floor for the Kadees and working corridor connections applied. He said they weren't worth trying to restore.
The rest of my Pullman train was a gift from an English friend* and was similarly converted to Kadee, but without the wheel and body modifications. No boxes for any of it.
* He was changing over to continental and American for better performance.

[Murphy Siding]

cogload: Thanks for the link. They look a lot like older, American equipment, except your seem to be in color. Most photos I've seen of American equipment make it seem more *black and white*( A really poor attempt at a joke.)
Can you expain to a non-railroader like me, the signalman's job?
Thanks

[Anonymous]

There is a site on t'internet which has pictures of Signalboxes in Cogload Coubtry. Including a picture (inside) of the box in which I currently work. I do not appear on this site btw.

[url] http://craig-munday.fotopic.net/c484322_1.html

For our american friends. Marvel at the pace of technological change!

[John Bakeer]

Cogload,
You musr live in Iceland if a pie and a pint cost seven hundred quid! Here it'll set you back all of two pounds fifty, and you'll get change from that.
John B.

[John Bakeer]

David,
Your 'Wren' Pullmans are quite rare and possibly worth a fair amount. If you still have the original boxes in good condition they would fetch a good price from British collectors.
"Stoopid! But very interestink". Quote from Rowan and Martins Laugh-in.(showing my age again)
We went to Glossop this morning by car as according to 'Train Line' there is no service from Stockport, strangely there are trains in Glossop station with passengers on board.
This is what you get with outsourcing the enquiry service to India!
John B.

[Anonymous]

Aye. But under BR I would have subsidised and a certain amount of free travel. Whoch I dont have now.

Looks like the threat of strikes are receeding this year though.

[Hugh Jampton]

The 2k is probably some weighted average,, kinda like the "average wage", who makes that?

[Simon Reed]

More than you'd have got under BR but still a kick in the parts.

NR are sounding, and functioning, more like a Nationalised company by the day. Give the top man a fat juicy steak and throw the people who actually do the work some crumbs.

[Anonymous]

the bonus is £954 before tax. Not sure where they get that 2 grand figure from. Probabley thier own imaginations I think.

So after the scotsman has removed his slice I will have enough to probabley purchase a pie and pint down the Trispen Arms.

[mhurley87f]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer
[
I recollect the old 1st & 3rd class for ordinary travellers during the 40s, 50s, 60s. Generally the 3rd class was 4 hard seats a side per compartment (and not very clean) against 3 per side 1st, and quite plush; The local trains were generally 3rd cass with no corridor /no toilet, it was God help the incontinent. I think the 1st class suplement was about 50%, the same as today on Virgin.
My (hazy) recollection of Pullmans in th 50s was that they were all one class with the option of silver service, I only madea few trips before a change of job and the aquisision of a car curtailed most of my rail travel.
Johgn B.

It would largely depend on which Region's trains you were riding. My meories of annual Holidays spent with either a West Wales weekly Runabout Ticket (for Tenby / Saundersfoot / Pembroke) or a Central Wales weekly Runabout Ticket (for Llandrindod Wells / Ludlow / Shrewsbury) was that ex Great Western compartments were strictly 4 a side, whereas ex LMS were 3 a side, with armrests (in both cases 2nd. Class). My honest opinion was that the British Railways Mk1 was a big improvement over GW 2nd class.

The LMS late 1930 designs were particularly comfortable, with fantastically wide and deep windows to admire the scenery, and the best carriage I have ever ridden was a 1938 Compartment First, which somehow got used in the Central Wales stock pool back around 1961 or 1962.

The Blue (Diesel) and Umber (Steam) Western Region Pullmans had both 1st and 2nd Class accommodation, but I'm sure that I've read that the Blue Manchester Pullmans were Ist Class only. Eastern Region Pullmans and the Southern "Belles" - too far away so I never saw any.

Hwyl,

[Hugh Jampton]

According to an article in the Mirror he's going to get a bonus of more than a million, and each employee will get about 2 grand.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17128265%26method=full%26siteid=94762%26headline=exclusive%2d%2drecord%2ddeal%2dfor%2drail%2dstaff%2d-name_page.html

[John Bakeer]

Simon, Eureka! I've found the elusive site <nationalrail.co.uk/promotions/alpha> £25.00 each way Stockport-London, book at least 24 hrs ahead of journey time.As we intend travelling Saturday virtually all trains are available. Now the train is viable at £100.00. all up. Two years ago it was possible to do the same journey for £16.00 return, more than a slight increase!
Just seen the preliminary report on National Rail (the network/infrastructure company). Annual loss 2005-6 £232,000,000.00; 2004-5 £47,000,000.00. The Boss (CEO) gets a bonus of £270,000.00; on top of a salary of £504,000.00 along with similar amounts for other board members. This is because the on time arrivle of passenger trains is now 86%. If this was Switzerland they'd all be sacked!? A fine example of British industries practice of rewarding failure.
I recollect the old 1st & 3rd class for ordinary travellers during the 40s, 50s, 60s. Generally the 3rd class was 4 hard seats a side per compartment (and not very clean) against 3 per side 1st, and quite plush; The local trains were generally 3rd cass with no corridor /no toilet, it was God help the incontinent. I think the 1st class suplement was about 50%, the same as today on Virgin.
My (hazy) recollection of Pullmans in th 50s was that they were all one class with the option of silver service, I only madea few trips before a change of job and the aquisision of a car curtailed most of my rail travel.
Johgn B.

[BR60103]

PULLMANS
I have a train of OO Pullman cars (Wrenn) and they have both first and third class cars. Did any of you ride these and can you compare the service to railway first and third? I'd also like to hear how the fare compares with the railway.

[Simon Reed]

John - I've been playing about with The Trainline (oh, the benefits of Wednesday late shift! I'm on double time and a day in lieu until midnight and I've nothing to do but play on the internet!) and sure enough I can't find any Stockport-London cheap tricks either.

It may be defeating the object somewhat but how about going to Sheffield then MML to London? It'll take a bit of time but it'll be very cheap.

Best time I can find from Vic to Lime Street today is 1hour 4minutes. That means that in the end the CLC won! You're far quicker going from Manchester Piccadilly.

[Simon Reed]

Tulyar - I've never been to Israel but as Dave confirms some Mk2 stock was sold there in the late 80's.

If I recall correctly it was the problematic 2D/E stock which was BR's first foray into air conditioning. A friend of mine spotted several of these sitting in a field in Israel in the early 90's so they clearly did'nt go down too well there either!

Dave - what sort of service frequency are we talking about? Western European-style regular service or peak hour only intensity?

This unit from Belgium sounds intriguing. I'm guessing it's one of the Mechelen - built trainsets which were monumentally unsuccesful in the low countries and replaced quite quickly by tri-voltage electric loco's.

If my guess is correct, they were'nt actually anything to do with Budd. The Belgians did have some Budd units built under licence (much as the Dutch had Baldwin electric loco's that bore a family resemblance to "Little Joe's") but then built their own stock which was very heavily influenced by the Budds.

It's a great tribute to their American designers that the Dutch Baldwins were very much front line traction until around ten years ago, having been built in 1951-3.

Dutch railways run - usually - with incredible punctuallity. I recall waiting at Utrecht one day for a Haarleem bound express that rolled in an unprecedented 10 minutes late behind Baldwin 1201, the class leader and my mate's last one for haulage.

I can only presume that the driver was in for a carpeting due to lateness because on VERY tight timings we were only 3 minutes late into Amsterdam. This was in 1995 so they were still capable of fast running right to the end.

[John Bakeer]

My maternal grandmother married a 'Gentile' (Catholic) and was consequently ostracised. So much for religious tolerance.
Did they cut an inch off the EMDs before purchase?
Many Jews and Arabs are brainwashed to treat any pork product as 'unclean' and will run a mile rather than touch it.
My father was an assistant to both
Hughes and Aspinal of the L&Y before joining British Dyes (ICI) after the grouping.I still have some of the reserch documents on superheating and compounding by them.
Manchester Victoria to Liverpool was scheduled at 40 minutes in 1908. I wonder what the current schedule is?
John B.

[daveklepper]

The British built the standard gauge lines in Israel to European clearances, not British Isle clearances. The first railroad in the Holy Land was built by the Navon and Freumkin failies who got permission fromt he Turkish government, and it was a 1.1 meter gauge line Jaffa - Jerusalem, converted to standard by the British. The British built lines now are about 35% of the total system. The commuter double-deck equipment is practically identacle to similar equipment in Germany or France. After the first Danish IC-3's were obtained older equipment had interiors remodeled to match and new equipment from then on also matched, including the suburban double-deckers. I've never seen double-stacking containers.

You can get a lot of information by visiting: www.israrail.org.il (or .copm.il?)

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

Simon,
Tulyar,
Where can I buy a cosher pork pie? I had a Jewish colleague when I worked in Leeds and we regularly dined on them at the local pub (washed down with Tetley bitter, of course!).
John B.

No idea I'm afraid though I'd have thought there must be a Jewish quarter in Manchester. I seem to remember reading somewhere that at one time the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway even printed timetables and other info in Jewish.

One of my great-great grandfathers was a Jewish immigrant to England but that's my only connection with Israel. (Apart from my paternal grandfather serving there in WW1).

[Murphy Siding]

Dave: Are Israeli rail lines built to British loading standards, as far as width and height? Double-deck suburban push-pulls sound like something tall and long.

[daveklepper]

To make this onto a Briti***hread: When I first visited Israel in 1960, the wood and steel (composite) arch roof semi-compartment coaches were still in use on most trains with new EMD B B road-switcher diesels. Nearly all freight cars were typical four wheel cars. Some runs were handled by 5-unit articulated German double-end diesel-mechanicals, which were a already failing (transmission problems mostly) and thus often hauled behind diesels. In 1966 and 1967 steel coaches arrived from Yugoslavia, and many are still running today. These are typical European open salon facing seat coaches. They now have Sutrak air conditioners mounted on their roofs. The second hand Mark 2's came about ten or twelve years later, and were mixed in with the Yugoslavian cars. One complete 2nd generation TEE Budd-liscenced set came from Belgium shortly afterwood and is still in service. This was the type of Budd equipment that inaugurated the first through Paris - Amsterdam electric highspeed service replacing the original TEE diesel trains. I think this is ten cars long, not all in service at one time, and the set kept together and not usually mixed with other cars. The Belgians had already downgraded the seating for higher capacity, but then Israel Railways rebuilt the interiors to conform to other intercity sets, seating configured like the Danish Fexiliner IC-3's which began arriving around 1990 and became the preferred equipment. Then the double-end streamlined B B cab units with EMD diesels arrived, along with single-level pushpulls, then around 2000 the first of the double-deck suburban pushpulls arrived with more B B diesels. Any of this equipment can be used anywhere, although the double deck equipment is intended for the heaviest suburban runs, expecially Tel Aviv - Benyamina, and the old equipment can no longer be used on the so-called restored run to Jerusalem (which only goes as far as a shopping center on the outskirts this moment) because of a lack of run-around track and thus the requirement to use mu (Danish) or push-pull equipment.

[John Bakeer]

Simon,
Is it me? Am I imcompetant? Or am I just unlucky? The Trainline web site for the WCML dosn't give any discounts for Saturday travel that I can find.
News from the NRM, Flying Scotsman is in bits for some major fixes taking about 18 months. The Great Marquess is due to run on the York -Scarborough big steam specials during the summer(?).
Tulyar,
Where can I buy a cosher pork pie? I had a Jewish colleague when I worked in Leeds and we regularly dined on them at the local pub (washed down with Tetley bitter, of course!).
John B.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed
[
Dave - an interesting insight on Israeli trains and possibly worthy of another thread! Don't you have CAF built EMD's working the double deck stock?

Simon,

Have you been to Israeli recently? I believe they bought some BR Mk 2's some years ago; are these still in use? I gather they have some locos built in Spain at the same plant as the EWS class 67's and which are very similar ie Alsthom body and bogies with EMD engine. Meanwhile both Syria and Iran have Alsthom built diesel locos powered by the Paxman VP185!