British Railway Operations

[daveklepper]

I know that all modern British systems are pantographs but happy to know that trolley poles are still used on the Isle of Man. Hope to get back to that wonderful garden spot with wonderful people some day. If Blackpool uses pantographs on its rehabilitated fleet (and hopefully money will be found for modern low-floor cars), does the historic fleet now have both bow collector and trolley-pole cars? Some of the museum systems in the USA also have overhead wire that can accomodate both kinds of pickup (pantograph and bow collector being essentially the same with regard to wire contact, possibly the big difference between them being simply the ranges of pressure employed), and some of the in-town city systems, as in Sacramento, Berkeley, and Oakland, CA,, where interurbans used pantographs and city streetcars trolley poles. Indeed, the entire Sacramento Northen system trolley wire (there was also a large third-rail section) was arranged that way, with special frogs with edges for pantograph continuous contact and with trolley-wire "ears" that kept the span-wire above the trolley wire itself yet permited the flanges of the trolley wheels or shoes to smoothly pass through.

From my recollection of movies and stills of London trams, bow collectors were used. The conduit system without wire was similar to New York and Washington, but with one big difference. The contact plows on the Washington and NY cars were attached to the car trucks. Change from wire to conduit required a man in an underground "plow pit" who manually slid the plow contactor off to the side of its carrier. London's plow were attached to a carrier under the car body. The conduit would move from between the rails to meet the conduit from the other track in a location half-way between the two tracks. The plow would slide out from under the outbound car at speed and join a stack of plows in the counduit between the two tracks. The only manual effort was for the attendent, above ground, to guide the plow to the proper point at the side of the inbound car, push it into the carrier, and the movement of the inbound car with the conduit moving to between the rail would center the plow. A better arrangment I thought.

As a youngster I visited Third Avenue Railway's plow pit at Lenox (now Malcolm X) Avenue and 145th Street, the only plow pit left operating, on the 149th Street Crosstown and Broadway-145th Street lines, and the Georgetown plowpits on the Cabin John and Frenship Heights lines of Capitol Transit, Washington, DC.

Conduit switches like most, but not all, trolley frogs for trolley-pole operation, did not have movable points. The frog was always further into the switch than the rail's points, so the movement of the car and srings associated with the plow would guide both a conduit plow and a trolley pole to the right wire. There were exceptions in certain trolley wire installations for specific reasons, more frequent with trolleybuses.

[John Bakeer]

Look out for photon torpedoes in the milky way!
John B.

[Anonymous]

set phasers to stun Mr Sulu.

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Hugh Jampton

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4801928.stm

[(-D] That's funny. It would seem likely that the difficulty in such a mode of transportation would not be acceleration, but stopping. Maybe that's why UFOs are always zooming past overhead. They haven't quite perfected the brakes.[:0]

[John Bakeer]

I once saw flying saucers (and plates etc.) when the West Yorkshireman went through a cross-over a bit briskly at Doncaster.
I think the Yanks are experimenting with an ION drive for their long distance craft, the provision of permanent way could pose a problem though!
Bow collectors if my memory serves me? Are confined to some of the blackpool fleet and the IOM Manx Electric Railway. I am not aware that anything other than pantographs (or similar) are applied to modern briti***rams. Parts of the old london network had a condiut between the rails with current collection via a shoe under the vehicle, I believe there is still a short piece in the Kingstone underpass.
John B.

[Hugh Jampton]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4801928.stm

[Anonymous]

The 1st generation tram systems used a mix of trolley poles and bow collectors - Blackpool ran with poles then switched to pantographs, two I know of that used bow collectors were Leeds and Glasgow. The problem is that the overhead usually needs to be set up for one system - pantographs don't need the "frogs" to guide trolley poles. Blackpool seem to have found a way around this by using metal bars to guide the pantographs under junctions (avoiding them becoming tangled in the frogs). They need to do this in order to be able to operate both their main pantograph-equipped fleet and their collection of classic trams with poles.

[Anonymous]

T15 - before Richard Bowker became Chief Exec of NEG he ran a series of articles in Rail about the financing of the notwork and one of the articles was about rolling stock and ROSCOS. If memory serves it was along the lines that the were incentivised to buy new and that due to a long life, residual value and so forth they required a large capital element to cover costs of refurbishment. Ergo high lease charges.

I shall have to dig the copy out.

[daveklepper]

Resonse to John Bakeer:

By "pantographs" didn't you really mean "bow collectors"?

Modern light rail cars everywhere seem to use pantographs exclusively, but the British classic trams, possibly still some in Blackpool, used bow collectors. But I think Isle of Man uses trolley poles (without checking on this) except for Snaifell Mountain which has a very odd form of pantograph.

One virtue of the correctly designed bow collector with the correctly tensioned overhead wire was that the driver did not have to do anything to the collector when changing ends. When the tram went in the opposite direction, the bow collector would raise the wire and flip to be trailing. Anyone one on this thread remember seeing this? I think saw it in Blackpool (first visit 1962) and plenty of times in motion pictures.

Sure cannot do this with trolley poles! Small trolley-pole equipped trams required the driver to walk the pole around the car, while normal and large cars had two.

Pantographs, either the box-like classic or the single-arm "Faverly" type, work equally well in both directions, and the reason most electric locomotives have two is for security reasons --except the Milwaukee's and South Shore's "Little Joes" which frequently used both to minimize arcing and to handle the huge current required to handle long freight trains. at 3000V and 1500V DC.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

We are in danger of institutionalising a very high cost base in the UK. Interesting times ahead.

Still at least the news that the Rail Regulator is going to investigate the (rip-off!) charges levied bby the Rolling Stock companies is not before time. It is nothing short of a scandal that the Rolling Stock Co (ROSCO) that Wales and Borders hires its class 158 DMUs from charges £500K per annum. So during their 15 year franchise W&B will have paid £7.5 million per unit for a train that cost BR £1 million back in 1991. IF that is not a rip-off and ultimately its us taxpayers who are getting ripped off!) I dont know what is.

[daveklepper]

Responding to Simon Reed:

From Mr. Sampson's book detailing his three-year stay in Saudi Arabia I would say you are in a war but that you are loosing because you aren't wiling to fight.

You need not kill innocent people or kill anybody. Just change your own government's energy and transportation planning.

Mr. Sampson is a British as well as Canadian citizen. What would your country have done if this treatment had been accorded one of its innocent citizens in say the year 1900?

Have you read his book? I think everyone should read it.

On the other hand I just now pulled up the website:

www.diplomatie.gouv.fr

and clicked on on "English'' and ''contact us''

and left a message

"Mercie - Thankyou - Todah - Shuckren

The young Frrench-Israeli soldier is a son of a very close friend of a very close friend of mine."

[Anonymous]

EWS lost the PO contract early partly because some PO management didn't want to see trains shifting mail at all, partly because what EWS offered was basically an outmoded form of distribution and lots to do with politics. The stock used was life expired, esp. the TPO, those who manned the TPO were frankly a pain on occasions and external factors such as the decision to finish with by 8AM next day delivery and the like for "ordinary" post whoch meant that a lot of mail was no longer time sensitive.

However the PO had 6mth off the rails then promptly came back to 2 trains a day but operated by another firm. EWS now hauls for DHL and Business Post and if the airlines get included into the emissions trading then there could be more.

WIth OA a lot of contracts are put out to tender as there are a variety of willing movers in theory. However the ORR which basically sets what Notwork Fail can charge through Track Access reckons that freight doesn't cover its costs on the network. And is looking to shove prices higher from the next regulatory period.

We are in danger of institutionalising a very high cost base in the UK. Interesting times ahead.

[John Bakeer]

I think a 66 will be a tight fit in the tube!
John B.

[Tulyar15]

GB Railfreight are an Open Access operator who run with a mixture of second hand and new locos. They have picked up a number of infrastructure maintenance contracts, not only with Network Rail (the infrastructure owner) but also with London Underground. For the latter contract they've bought some new locos from EMD with the new low emissions engine so soon we'll see class 66's on the Underground!

[Hugh Jampton]

EWS lost the contract to trucks, but recently GBRailfreight (Now a Firstgroup company I believe) have taken some back. At the moment it's only 2 trains a day.
http://www.gbrailfreight.com/

[Murphy Siding]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Tulyar15

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

On topic: It seems that there will be a big announcement on EWS (42% owned by CN) early in July. Expect job losses sadly.

Is it just me, or have EWS lost the plot. First they lose the Royal Mail contract and now this.

From what a guy I met in Ireland who works for EWS tells me it sounds like they're just trying to penny pinch all the time, with the result that their service to customers is suffering. No wonder the Open Access operators are rubbing their hands with glee.

Did EWS lose the Royal Mail contract to another railroad, or to trucks? Can you explain the comment about the Open Access operators? Thanks

[John Bakeer]

David,
True trolleys had a pole in order to better control the pick up as the danger of a short circuit could trip the sub station out and kill a chunk of the system.
UK trams were almost universally fitted with rope rewirerers, modern UK trams are all fitted with pantographs.
I can rember travelling on trams in London, Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds and Sheffield.
It was once possble to travel by tram from Leeds to Liverpool.
EWS was originally owned by Wisconsin Central, a lot of skullduggery took place prior to the CN takeover, a story in itself.
John B.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

On topic: It seems that there will be a big announcement on EWS (42% owned by CN) early in July. Expect job losses sadly.

Is it just me, or have EWS lost the plot. First they lose the Royal Mail contract and now this.

From what a guy I met in Ireland who works for EWS tells me it sounds like they're just trying to penny pinch all the time, with the result that their service to customers is suffering. No wonder the Open Access operators are rubbing their hands with glee.

[BR60103]

Diverging track: Briti***ramcars and Trolley buses didn't have retriever ropes. North American ones had a rope from the end of the trolley pole to a little button shaped devive (8" to a foot across) and when the pole came off the wire, this would wind the rope in and pull the pole down, like a spring blind. It also kept the rope tidy. In Toronto the device was mounted below the back window; in Pittsburg it was mounted above the back window.
British poles had a loop at the end of the pole and the cars were provided with a stick with a hook on the end to manipulate the pole.
The chairman of our model rly club worked as a trolley bus conductor when a student. He said it was the conductor's responsibility to have the ploe on board. One Sunday they dewired at the outer loop and had to wait ages for the next bus because he had forgotten the hook.
Now back on topic.

[Anonymous]

Off topic: Kington is a rather nice little border town not far from Cogload Parent's ex Country of New Radnor. Before they emigrated to rather warmer climes of the East Med.

On topic: It seems that there will be a big announcement on EWS (42% owned by CN) early in July. Expect job losses sadly.

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar,
South Yorkshire PTE experimented with a hybrid vehicle at the Leger Way depot in Doncaster. It was a deisel bus with stiffened roof to take the power collection equipment with electric motors in the power train, the notion was to use electrical power in towns/cities and switch to deisel traction on lighter trafficked routes. Work on it was discontinued at privatisation.
I wasn't aware of the Dudley museum and will try to fit a trip there in the future.
The National Tramway Museum at Crich in Derbyshire has an operating syatem with beautifully restored trams and fares charged in old pre-decimal coinage.
John B.

[Tulyar15]

QUOTE: Originally posted by John Bakeer

Oops!
Dornier 'Flying Pencil' vs ME109.
Trolley buses, the last town/city to run them I recollect were Bradford and Swinton in Yorkshire. The local name for them was 'Trackless'. I used the last Bradford route from the city centre to The Royal Infirmary, They retained a short length of overhead in one of the depots for a number of years and periodically would turn out No 73(?) for enthusiasts.
John B.

Weren't they thinking of bringing back trolley buses in Doncaster fairly recently? I seem to remember driving thru there in the late 1980's and seeing trolley bus wires in place.

In addition to the places all ready mentioned, they have working trolley buses and trams at the Black Country museum in Dudley.

[John Bakeer]

Try 'Thje British Library' accessible through your local authority lending library.
I have BORROWED a lot of railroad books via this source, but be patient turn round tmes are quite slow. Sorry UK only.
John B.

[Isambard]

From bbc.co.uk , WW2 Peoples War:

The Clydeside Blitz
With Prestwick and the Clyde turning into key strategic points for the war effort, they quickly attracted the attention of the Luftwaffe. On 13 March 1941 the sirens declared the imminent arrival of the Heinkel 111 and Junker 88 aircraft and the start of the Clydeside Blitz. Up until 1941 most of the German bombing raids had been against Coventry, Liverpool and London. But better weather and extended range now threatened targets in Scotland too.

The term Blitz derives from the German word blitzkrieg, meaning 'lightning war' - but what had become clear from London's experience was that the bombing war would be a long, drawn-out affair.

The air raid began at about 9.30pm on 13 March 1941. The bombing went on for eight hours, with over 1,000 bombs dropped in addition to parachute mines and incendiary bombs. It was the worst bombing raid suffered by Scotland, killing 528 'Bankies' and injuring over 600.

Of some 12,000 homes in Clydebank, no more than a dozen were completely untouched. Over 4,000 homes were completely destroyed or damaged beyond repair.

Domestic counter-measures against the bombing threat eventually came through. Dummy towns near Dumbarton, codenamed 'Starfish', were created on either side of the Clyde and blackouts were enforced in a bid to foil the bombers.

Balloon defences were also used as defence, with squadrons at Glasgow, Renfrew, Ardrossan and Greenock. From 1941, Fighter Command were instructed to treat the Clyde, the Mersey and the Bristol Channel as the main priority for defence.

[martin.knoepfel]

Glasgow was far too distant from Norway for German fighters. So bomb-attacks on Glasgow must have resulted in horrible casualties, if carried out during the day, or they must have been night-attacks. These were by there very nature less precise. That is true for the Allied forces attacking Germany, too.

ME109 were indeed used as ground-attack-airplanes, because the Me110 and the Ju87 were like sitting ducks, easy targets even for the Hurricanes, not to talk of the mighty Spitfires

[Tulyar15]

I have a buddy who goes to Hay-on-Wye every year for the annual festival. It's been and gone for this year but I dare say if people wanted help finding a book he might be willing to have a look round the book shops.

I also have a couple of friends in the nearby town of Kington who run a B & B guesthouse for anyone wanting to stay in the area.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cogload

Isambard.

Try and get hold of a copy, I purchased mine (paperback, well thumbed) at the Castle Bookshop in Hay on Wye, anybody who knows that town will of course know that it is full of 2nd hand book shops. Nothing else there mind.

It is a fascinating and at times poignant read, as well as being very funny in places.

Cogload:

Looks as if it may be difficult to find over here. Amazon.com only lists "Fiennes on Rails: Fifty Years of Railways As Seen by Gerald Fiennes" at $84 plus Cdn (ouch!). Must see if our library system can rustle up a copy by interloan. It must have been read by those who helped de-nationalize Canadian National, now one of North America's most profitatble railways.

[:)]

[Anonymous]

Isambard.

Try and get hold of a copy, I purchased mine (paperback, well thumbed) at the Castle Bookshop in Hay on Wye, anybody who knows that town will of course know that it is full of 2nd hand book shops. Nothing else there mind.

It is a fascinating and at times poignant read, as well as being very funny in places.

[John Bakeer]

Oops!
Dornier 'Flying Pencil' vs ME109.
Trolley buses, the last town/city to run them I recollect were Bradford and Swinton in Yorkshire. The local name for them was 'Trackless'. I used the last Bradford route from the city centre to The Royal Infirmary, They retained a short length of overhead in one of the depots for a number of years and periodically would turn out No 73(?) for enthusiasts.
Cogload,
How right you are! I have been in construction most of my working life and in the 60's worked on some bloody awful buildings including high rise housing, far too many of which are still standing.
Fiennes was done the dirty by the then whitehall administration, I seem to recollect that he was totally apposed to the Beeching plan 'like amputating the arms of a starving man'.
John B.

[Isambard]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Simon Reed

I'm not sure about Gerald Fiennes family tree although it's not a common surname so there may be some acting/exploring links.

He was the GM of BR's Eastern Region in the 50's and 60's - as Cogload suggests it's fascinating and, at times, mind-boggling reading.

I've since found him via Google and Wikapedia and yes he is/was a member of the famous clan.