Tulyar15 wrote:My brother has started scanning in his collection of slides some of whih date back to the 1970's. He's put some pics taken in the early 1970's at a number of locations in the West Midlands at:- http://www.roscalen.com/signals/WestMids/index.htm
http://www.roscalen.com/signals/WestMids/index.htm
Thanks for the info - very interesting.
The West Midlands photo's take me back at bit - I first got interested in trains around 1972 when I lived in the area (Stourbridge Junction - Birmingham was my local line) - Kidderminster is a few miles SW of Stourbridge on the same line (the 'Old Worse and Worse').
Although Stourbridge Junction didn't have many 'oddities' in signalling terms, at that time it still had three operational signalboxes (south, middle and north) controlling mostly ex-GWR/WR lower-quadrant semaphores.
All changed now - the 'Middle' signalbox building survives as the control centre for the SSI power signalling along the line to Birmingham, but the other two 'boxes and the semaphores are long gone....as are the 'Westerns' hauling china-clay through there in old wooden-bodied wagons to Stoke-on-Trent - a sight to lift the spirits of any enthusiast (a bit of Cornish atmosphere transported north!)
Tony
John Baker
My brother has started scanning in his collection of slides some of whih date back to the 1970's. He's put some pics taken in the early 1970's at a number of locations in the West Midlands at:-
For anyone who's interested, there was a BBC Radio 4 conversation/discussion programme about UK rail privatisation on recently - see http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/thereunion/pip/5cgqd/ - it's available online via 'listen again', and it will be repeated on Friday morning (8th Sept)
I had arranged to go to London to meet some friends. In order to travel there as cheaply as possible I had pre-booked a ticket that was valid on
specified trains only.
The situation was complicated by engineering works at Wooten Bassett Junction, between Chippenham
and Swindon. An hourly bus service was running between those two places and an hourly train shuttle
between Chippenham and Bristol Temple Meads . So I booked on the 10:00 train from
Chippenham to Bath and the 10:42 Bath - Paddington. (Trains from Bath to London Paddington were being diverted via Bradford-on-Avon, the normal freight only east curve at Westbury (Wilts.) and Newbury.
All went well in the morning and while waiting for the 10:42 at Bath I saw a steam hauled
special train head through towards Bristol, hauled by Bulleid "Battle of Britain" 4-6-2 34067"Tangmere". Unfortunately I did not get as many shots as I would have liked as I ran out of film!
The 10:42 arrived on time and arrival at Paddington was a couple of minutes early.
All to soon I had to return to Paddington to get the 16:15 back to Bath. No sooner had I boarded than an announcement was made that all trains out of Paddington would be delayed due to a bomb scare at Reading. At 16:30 we were still in Paddington when a further announcement was made than no trains would leave for at least another two hours. Passengers for Exeter and stations west thereof were advised to make their way to Waterloo and catch a train from there. At this point I remembered that Southwest trains run some trains to Bath from Waterloo. I mentioned this to some fellow passengers who were also bound for Bath. One of them who had a WAP phone found that there was a train from Waterloo at 17:20 to Salisbury which would connect in with a train from Salisbury to Bath.
So I decided to get the Bakerloo line to Waterloo (good job I'd kept my day rover ticket!) and got there at about17:00. Expecting to be challenged at the ticket barrier I was amazed to find no one on the gateand I boarded the 17:20 without being challenged. A marked contrast to the barriers at Paddington! (Had I been a terrorist I could have planted a bomb on any of Waterloo's 21domestic platforms!)
It was not till after Woking, the 17:20 having left Waterloo on time, that the guard came round.
I explained my situation and he said I could use my ticket on his train.
Arrival at Salisbury was on time and there I was greeted with the sight of "Tangmere" taking on water. Havingreplenished its tanks, it set off back to its base with just the support crew coach in tow. Fortunately I'd put a fresh film in my camera and was able to get some pics but the light was fading by now.
The Bath bound train arrived and set off on time, and its guard was also aware of the situation and allowedmy ticket. Unfortunately a failed train delayed our arrival at Bath so I had to wait nearly an hour for the 21:17 to Chippenham. I finally arrived home about 22:00, having had to cancel plans to meet some other friends(some of my Avon Valley Railway co-workers) at Keynsham (near Bristol) as it was too late to go there.
Whilst the disruption was frustrating, as a compensation I did get to travel over some lines I dont often get to do. By the time I got back to Bath the "package" at Reading must have been dealt with as there was a stready stream of Great Western High Speed Trains passing thru.
Tulyar15 wrote: owlsroost wrote: . BTW, if the Mk2's at Oxley are the ex-VWC Euston - Birmingham - Wolverhampton stock, I'd be surprised if they weren't just awaiting collection for the scrap dealer - they've had 35 years of hard life already. Tony If they're only fit for scrap how come the New Zealand railways have bought some, and refurbuished some with sliding doors at 1/3rd and 2/3rd along the body. Now if the ROSCO's were not as risk averse as GNER, they could do something like that and rent them out.
owlsroost wrote: . BTW, if the Mk2's at Oxley are the ex-VWC Euston - Birmingham - Wolverhampton stock, I'd be surprised if they weren't just awaiting collection for the scrap dealer - they've had 35 years of hard life already. Tony
.
BTW, if the Mk2's at Oxley are the ex-VWC Euston - Birmingham - Wolverhampton stock, I'd be surprised if they weren't just awaiting collection for the scrap dealer - they've had 35 years of hard life already.
If they're only fit for scrap how come the New Zealand railways have bought some, and refurbuished some with sliding doors at 1/3rd and 2/3rd along the body. Now if the ROSCO's were not as risk averse as GNER, they could do something like that and rent them out.
Remember that the normal laws of physics don't apply in New Zealand! These guys dug up an 1885 Rogers 2-4-2 - that is dug up, it had been dumped in a river to protect the bank from erosion in the 1920s and had been submerged for more than 40 years. And it went back into service with the shell of the boiler it had when dumped! Since then it got a new welded boiler and a second one was dug up and has joined the first, and they even double headed at least once.
Even the New Zealanders said they were surprised at the extent of rust removal required. The set used on the "Capital Connection" from Wellington to Palmerston North has the original doors, converted to operate as plug doors like those on Irish Mk 3s, but the later cars have sliding doors.
I have heard they were considering buying more Mk 2s, because they are one of the few existing designs outside NZ that fit their clearances. The last new passenger stock was Ganz Mavag (Hungarian) electric two car sets built before the fall of the Berlin Wall. They are still running 1939 English Electric suburban sets in Wellington, that look a bit like 1938 Tube trains (they are bigger than the tube profile, of course).
There is just not enough money in New Zealand for many new passenger trains that need subsidies to run. Most private automobiles in New Zealand are second hand from Japan!
M636C
Tulyar15 wrote:I dont know but hopefully it may have boosted rail travel. After all, rail does not need such stringent security measures because trains dont drop out of the sky! Ever since 9/11 airport securiy procedures have been stepped. As this adds to the journey time it takes to get somewhere by air, this should tip the balance in favour of rail. Before 9/11 it was thought that 3 hours was the maximum journey time over which rail was competitive; if it is now 4 hours then that could mean Virgin's new Pendolinos could attract extra business on the London - Glasgow route. Back in the 1980's British Rail chairman Sir Peter Parker described this as the biggest passenger market which BR did not dominate. At that time BR's hopes were pinned on the tilting Advanced Passenger Train (APT) which came within an ace of success but was ditched at the last minute. Now Virgin have got their tilting Pendolines up and running and are now looking to run them at 135mph. Meanwhile, the opening next year of both Phase of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, from London St. Pancras to Ebbsfleet and the LGV ("Ligne a Grand Vitess" - French for high speed line) Est from Paris to Cologne (Germany) will mean that you'll be able to travel by train from London to Cologne in less time that in takes from London to Edinburgh (just over 4 hours).
I dont know but hopefully it may have boosted rail travel. After all, rail does not need such stringent security measures because trains dont drop out of the sky! Ever since 9/11 airport securiy procedures have been stepped. As this adds to the journey time it takes to get somewhere by air, this should tip the balance in favour of rail. Before 9/11 it was thought that 3 hours was the maximum journey time over which rail was competitive; if it is now 4 hours then that could mean Virgin's new Pendolinos could attract extra business on the London - Glasgow route. Back in the 1980's British Rail chairman Sir Peter Parker described this as the biggest passenger market which BR did not dominate.
At that time BR's hopes were pinned on the tilting Advanced Passenger Train (APT) which came within an ace of success but was ditched at the last minute. Now Virgin have got their tilting Pendolines up and running and are now looking to run them at 135mph.
Meanwhile, the opening next year of both Phase of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link, from London St. Pancras to Ebbsfleet and the LGV ("Ligne a Grand Vitess" - French for high speed line) Est from Paris to Cologne (Germany) will mean that you'll be able to travel by train from London to Cologne in less time that in takes from London to Edinburgh (just over 4 hours).
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Hugh Jampton wrote:Toronto had a load of them at one time. I don't suspect there's any left though..
Toronto has 2 PCCs left but they are used only for charters now (along with the Peter Witt). Toronto did have the largest fleet of PCC cars and also the largest fleet of used PCC cars.
What's this got to do with British Railways?
--David
I hope the Rosco's do find a home for all the ex-TPE 158's (I think some are going to SWT for Waterloo-Exeter services, and TPE might need to keep some for Northwest-Scotland services if that moves out of the CrossCountry franchise, for starters).
One thing mentioned in the Modern Railways piece was that FGW was changing the supplier of it's 158's because they'd got a better deal from another Rosco, which does illustrate that a commercial market operates.
At the end of the day, there's nothing to stop a TOC buying trains itself, but (except for FGW's HST stockpile, as far as I know) they've all decided to pay someone else to carry that commercial risk.
Simon Reed wrote: The Polish machine is out of traffic at the moment. We had a Peckett 0-4-0ST (1438 of 1916), a Yorkshire 0-6-0 diesel electric and ex BR "02" D2853 - carrying a 26D shed plate (Bank Hall.) The tours are operated by the Appleby Frodingham Railway Preservation Society using their stock and traction although I understand that on special occasions Corus locos are used. I'm not even sure where Normanby Park was. I presume that it was rail-served, but I probably first went to Cleethorpes with a "40" in about 1981 and can only remember Appleby-Frodingham. Mind you, that's a long time ago and I'd have been listening more than looking!
The Polish machine is out of traffic at the moment.
We had a Peckett 0-4-0ST (1438 of 1916), a Yorkshire 0-6-0 diesel electric and ex BR "02" D2853 - carrying a 26D shed plate (Bank Hall.)
The tours are operated by the Appleby Frodingham Railway Preservation Society using their stock and traction although I understand that on special occasions Corus locos are used.
I'm not even sure where Normanby Park was. I presume that it was rail-served, but I probably first went to Cleethorpes with a "40" in about 1981 and can only remember Appleby-Frodingham.
Mind you, that's a long time ago and I'd have been listening more than looking!
Normanby Park steelworks was about 3 miles north of Scunthorpe and was served by the North Lindsey Light Railway which left the mainline at Trent Junction, near the old Frodingham Motive Power Depot. This line originally went as far as the bank of the River Humber at Winteringham. It also served ironstone mines at Crosby, Dragonby and Winterton. These mines closed in the 1970s when British Steel started using high grade imported ore instead of the fairly low grade local ore. Right up to the end of local ore mining, Appleby-Frodingham Ore Ming Branch used their own locomotives and wagons on the NLLR between the mines and the works in Scunthorpe.
Malc.
Tulyar15 wrote: Talking of steel works, does anyone know if Workington is closing and if so when? I thought it was but when I went past it on the way to Ravenglass during my stay in Carlisle it was definitely active.
Talking of steel works, does anyone know if Workington is closing and if so when? I thought it was but when I went past it on the way to Ravenglass during my stay in Carlisle it was definitely active.
According to the Corus press release - http://www.corusgroup.com/en-GB/news/news/2005/2005_scunthorpe_steelworks - it looks like rail production will be transferred to Scunthorpe over the next 12 months as the new production facility is commissioned.
Talking of steel works, does anyone know if Workington is closing and if so when? I thought it was but when I went past it on the way to Ravenglass during my stay in Carlisle it was definitely active. Not only did we pass a train of rails between there and Carlisle, but we saw at least one 0-6-0 diesel shunter at work on the internal rail network.
Incidentally the name of the pub I mentioned beside the Carlisle - Newcastle line is "The Corby Bridge Inn".
John Bakeer wrote:I'm pleased you enjoyed your trip to Scunny Simon. Was it Normamby Park? Did some work there in mid 70's put in the hydraulics for the rolling mills and wire mill. Steel making (heavy engineering of any kind) is a most satisfying job. They had some deisel hydraulic 0-8-0/0-6-0/0-4-0's when I was there. I think they were Hunset and/or Clayton types. John B.
Normanby Park steelworks closed down and was demolished, I think, in the early 1980s. The huge Appleby -Frodingham steelworks does railtours of its works, often using steam haulage, with a Polish 0-6-0 tank locomotive.
Tony - very noisy from the outside, incredibly quiet inside and a far better ride than the 158's.
I've had a few rides but last Saturday evening had 185113 back from Scunthorpe to Doncaster, having been on a steelworks tour.
THAT is something I'd wholeheartedly recommend. We had the standard afternoon tour of the site, then a brakevan tour in the evening and saw more or less everything.
A friend had a GPS doobrey with him - across both tours we did 28 miles and did'nt really repeat ourselves. At various points on the brakevan tour we got as close to the blast furnaces as you can get, went through the middle of one of the bar mills and trundled down the NR exchange sidings. Tremendous.
Given that there is a nationwide shortage of stock, I would not have thought the ROSCO's would have any difficulty finding takers for these allegedy surplus 158's - Wales & Borders for one.
At the moment I know a lot of people who commute from Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton who are having to put up with over crowding (due to rolling stock shortage) whilst perfectly serivceable ex-Virgin Mk'2s sit idle at Oxley. If the ROSCO's did not charge silly prices those carriages could be used to alleviate rush hour over crowding. I dont understand why the ROSCO's dont charge a more realistic price - as a friend used to say "50% of something is better than 100% of nothing".
Talking of new rolling stock, anyone had a ride on the new TransPennine 185 DMUs ?
I had my first sight and ride on one last week - the engine/exhaust noise from outside is MUCH louder than any other modern DMU I can think of (someone I was with thought it sounded a bit like a Western - not entirely convinced myself but I could see what he meant).
I'm not complaining as a railfan, but I'm a bit surprised they meet modern noise regs.
As for your point about ROSCO's investing in new trains - that's rather like saying Barclay's Bank invests in new houses just becuase it gives you a mortgage to buy a new house.
To be fair Porterbrook have made speculative investments in new trains (ie ordering them before a TOC has come along and asked for some). Significantly Porterbrook is owned by Stagecoach, the bus company which for a long time was the only one to order new buses; the other ROSCO's are owned by the banks, who we all know are past masters at the art of ripping people off.
owlsroost wrote:Roger Ford's take on the current ROSCO (rolling stock leasing companies) situation is here - http://home.ezezine.com/759/759-2006.07.24.00.01.archive.html (a longer version is in the current 'Modern Railways' mag).Some archive stuff on ROSCO's here -http://www.alycidon.com/ALYCIDON%20RAIL/INFORMED%20SOURCES%20ARCHIVE/INF%20SRCS%202004/Informed%20Sources%2010%202004%20p2.htmhttp://www.alycidon.com/ALYCIDON%20RAIL/INFORMED%20SOURCES%20ARCHIVE/INF%20SRCS%202006/Informed%20Sources%2003%202006%20p3.htmThe bit the DfT is arguing about is just the capital cost element of the leases, which isn't the major part - the rest is for maintenance (overhauls, refurbishments etc which the ROSCO's pay for).They could have invested in extra trains (as other TOC's have done since privtisation) but they've been far too risk averse.The 91's+Mk4's were by far the newest IC stock at privatisation, and GNER had Eurostar sets on lease for some time to supplement them (extra HST's weren't available at the time). Now that spare HST's are around they've leased more of those in place of the Eurostars - the big problem on the ECML is track and electrical supply capacity south of Hitchin at peak periods, rather than lack of rolling stock....and TOC's haven't invested in new trains - the ROSCO's have done that....In fact GNER could have served Sunderland without having to find any extra stock or crews simply by running the Aberdeen and Inverness HSTs via Sunderland - after all why do those trains need to run under the wires?It's a lot slower running via Sunderland, and the Newcastle - Sunderland stretch is also now shared with T&W Metro trains.Tony
They could have invested in extra trains (as other TOC's have done since privtisation) but they've been far too risk averse.
In fact GNER could have served Sunderland without having to find any extra stock or crews simply by running the Aberdeen and Inverness HSTs via Sunderland - after all why do those trains need to run under the wires?
True but the people using those trains probably would not be too botherer - anyone in a hurry to get from London to Aberdeen goes by plane.
As for your point about ROSCO's investing in new trains - that's rather like saying Barclay's Bank invests in new houses just becuase it gives you a mortgage to buy a new house. To be fair Porterbrook have made speculative investments in new trains (ie ordering them before a TOC has come along and asked for some). Significantly Porterbrook is owned by Stagecoach, the bus company which for a long time was the only one to order new buses; the other ROSCO's are owned by the banks, who we all know are past masters at the art of ripping people off.
I quite enjoy Mr Fords ezine and column, it is very informative. Basically Daft cant actually tell the ROSCo's tro do anything; they have asked the ORR to investigate the market to see if it is worth a further referral to the Competition Commission. As with everything bureaucratic, it will take time.
Freight traffic down here in the Duchy is looking decidedly iffy at the minute. I was suprised slightly as the original rumour was that Rock (Goonbarrow) was going to shut with Burngullow remaining open, however it seems that the reverse is true. None of the pits nor Marsh Mills loads on saturdays anymore, IMERYS have just ordered 80odd large tractor units and are investing in their hauliers so it aint looking good for the Clay traffic. As Irvine is now partly served from Quidhampton and Aberdeen....
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