British Railway Operations

[John Bakeer]

Don't know who named the Deltic 015 Tulyar, but I do remember the dobbin well as it won me a few quid. The loco was indeed named after the equine.

[Tulyar15]

Funniest story I heard about naming was the Warship class (WR diesel hydraulics). They were named in alphabetical order with the numbers, and then they added a few on the end of the order. Someone suddenly had to come up with 3 ship names starting with "Z".

The reason for this was the late decision to build an extra 5 Warships at Swindon works, #866 - 870. This was due to late delivery of the batch being built by the North British Loco Co, #833 - 865. When this batch eventually did arrive they were inferior to their Swindon built sisters and were the first to be withdrawn. None survive.

On the subject of names #812 was originally allocate the name "Dispatch" but instead carried the name "The Royal Naval Reserve, 1859 - 1959" which had to be spelt out in smaller characters to fit the nameplate, and it took two rows to do so.

On the subject of survival out of the 74 strong Western class 4 of the 7 survivors are from the batch built at Swindon, #1000 - 1029. I wonder if the build quality of this batch was better than that of the Crewe built batch, given that a disproportionate number of survivors are from this batch. Funnily enought the same also applies to 9F 2-10-0's - the majority of survivors are from the Swindon batch #92200 - 92220, whereas 200 of the 250 strong class were built at Crewe.

In both instance to its credit Crewe built locos more quicklyu. Originally the Western order was to have been split 50/50 betweens the two works but because Swindon was slower Crewe ended building all but the first 30.

[BR60103]

BR could be somewhat inconsistent in their naming policies. The Deltics were named after either racehorses or regiments. Racehorses were a carry-over from LNER which named a lot of their pacifics after race horses or company directors. LNER ran through a country with a number of famous race courses.

Funniest story I heard about naming was the Warship class (WR diesel hydraulics). They were named in alphabetical order with the numbers, and then they added a few on the end of the order. Someone suddenly had to come up with 3 ship names starting with "Z".

[Murphy Siding]

55 015 Tulyar - Deltic Preservation Society, Barrow Hill

    Hmmmm....I thought Tulyar 15 was the name of a racehorse of the equine variety, not the diesel variety.  Who got to name the locomotives anyhow?

[Tulyar15]

Yes, though 6 out of 22 is a good survival rate, and 3 of those six are currently passed for main line running. There was even talk of #2 'KOYLI' running main line but the people who were going to pay for her to be maintained in main line worthy condition ran out of money. (I think they were the same people behind the failed D9000 Ltd company which owned #16 and #22).

I gather the overhaul of #22 'Royal Scots Grey' is behind schedule and Pathfinder Tours have cancelled the trip they were going to run with her on January 2nd which is a shame. It was going to be a thrash from London Kings Cross to Newcastle via the East Coast Main Line (where a Deltic belongs!) with the return leg via the Durham Coast line. Hopefully they'll run the tour later in the year when the days are longer.

[John Bakeer]

I Assume the remaining deltics were scrapped.

[Tulyar15]

If I remember rightly, the surviving production Deltics (In TOPS number order) are:-

55 002 King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry - National Railway Museum, York

55 009 Alycidon  - Deltic Preservation Society, Barrow Hill

55 015 Tulyar - Deltic Preservation Society, Barrow Hill

55 016 Gordon Highlander - same as 55 022 (see below)

55 019 Royal Northumberland Fusilier - Deltic Preservation Society, Barrow Hill

55 022 Royal Scots Grey - taken over by a new group (successor to D9000 Ltd) who are maintaining it in main line running condition.

And of course the prototype Deltic is also owned by the National Railway Museum and is currently on display at Railworld, Shildon, Co. Durham.

For more info about the three owned by the Deltic Preservation Society see http://www.thedps.co.uk/staticpages/index.php?page=about

[mdw]

Complete change of subject.  Does anyone know the final disposition of all of the Deltics.  I am familiar with Royal Scots Grey and Gordon Highlander, what about the others?

[Tulyar15]

Well they've already rebuilt and re-opened half the Welsh Highland since 1998 (and laid an extra 3 miles north from the original WHR terminus at Dinas, on to Caernarvon on the former LNWR standard gauge trackbed, with a new easy to find terminus slap bang next to the famous castle. I believe this is close to where the original 3' 6" Nantlle TRamway terminus was (opened 1828). You can see places where the standard trackbed (opened 1867) deviates from the earlier 3' 6" tramway).

On the stock front, the Porthmadog Welsh Highland Railway (www.whr.co.uk) have restored most of the surviving WHR coaches (one or two others remain on the Ffestiniogh Railway, being seized by the FR when the WHR closed in 1937 as part payment of monies owed to the FR by the WHR) and the PWHR have the only surviving WHR loco, "Russell" a 2-6-2T built by Hunslet in 1906. They've also acquired an ex US Army Baldwin 4-6-0T, identical to the one which ran on the WHR.

Meanwhile for the 'Caernarvon' Welsh Highland several ex S. African 2-6-2 +2-6-2T Garratts have been acquired and they've also restored K1, the very first Garratt built in 1902.

[John Bakeer]

Hi Tulyar,
Visited the WHR web site, by Jove what a tremendous effort going in there!
I must try and get down there, the last time was in the late 50s and what a sad site that was.

[Tulyar15]

Meanwhile, in "The Land of My Fathers", the new flat crossing at Porthmadog where narrow gauge Welsh Highland Railway trains will cross the Network Rail Cambrian Coast line from Easter 2009 is now in place. See www.isengard.co.uk for some pics taken yesterday or the Welsh Highland Railway (Porthmadog)'s live webcam at

http://webcam.whr.co.uk/croesorcrossing/index.htm

[M636C]

I think the point with "Flying Scotsman" is its been rebuilt so many times its difficult to say whether it is authentic or not. To recap:-

1) When built in 1922 it had a 180 psi boiler with a round dome. This was fairly low pressure by the standards of the time. The physical smaller GWR "Castle" 4-6-0's were able to out perform the Gresley Pacifics, as demonstrated in the 1924 exchange where "Pendennis Castle" out performed the Gresley's on their home turf and using Yorkshire coal rather than its normal diet of Welsh. As a result of this the LMS decided to opt for large 4-6-0's (the Royal Scot class) rather than Pacifics.

2) By the 1930's Gresley had fitted most of his A1 Pacifics with 250psi boilers, these rebuilds being classifed A3. Flying Scotsman however was only rebuilt to to this spec in 1947.

3) In BR days a number of A3's, including "Flying Scotsman" were rebuilt with newer boilers, double chimneys and German type smoke deflectors. When bought for preservations by Alan Pegler in 1963, Mr. Pegler also bought a 1930's type boiler from another A3, which he fitted to Flying Scotsman to give it the 1930;s look. The fact that it had not received such a boiler until 1947 did not deter him.

So from the above it can be said that Flying Scotsman has never been preserved in authentic condition. The upside of this is it runs better and the NRM are relaxed about making mods to it as its main function in their collection is to be a mainline capable locomotive.

The A3 class had their boiler pressure set to 220 lbf/sq in, only the A4s used 250 lbf/sq in.

The main change made to the A1 was the change to long travel valves around 1928. Gresley's staff took careful measurements of the valve gear of Pendennis Castle while it was on loan (not easy, it was all inside the frames) and were able to determine what the advantages of the particular valve travel and timing were. These ideas were incorporated in the A1s which made them much more economical and allowed the Edinburgh non stop service.

The A3 boilers were the same size as the A1 boiler but worked at a higher pressure 220 lbf/sq in and could be recognised by rectangular "patches" on the smokebox covering the larger superheater header in this boiler. When a locomotive got the higher pressure boiler, the cylinders were reduced from 20" to 19" to keep the tractive effort similar. Later A3 boilers included the "banjo" dome which included a long steam collector, and the early covers were banjo shaped. Because of the cylinder change, no A3 reverted to A1, although it was theoretically possible when boilers were exchanged.

The streamlined A4 had a shorter boiler mated to a longer firebox with an enlarged combustion chamber, so the external dimensions were the same. The dome was further forward owing to the combustion chamber (although that wasn't visible on a streamlined A4). It was realised that this boiler would fit an A3 and even set to 220 lbf/sq in would give improved performance. Flying Scotsman now has an A4 boiler set to 220 lbf/sq in. I think both of 4472's boilers have banjo domes but I don't know if they are both A4 boilers.

Many Gresley pacifics received new frames owing to cracking of the plates during the 1930s and later, so it is unlikely that 4472 even has the original frames, so nothing but the nameplate would be original (and I think even that was changed for a larger one fairly early in its life - maybe the maker's plate is still original).

M636C

[M636C]

M636C, You are well adrift from the sublime to suggest the destruction of part of our heritage. Flying Scotsman is in the midst of a major overhaul and will remain as we know it.

I didn't suggest it and I didn't say I agreed with it! I just gave some details of both locomotives!

M636C

[Tulyar15]

I think the point with "Flying Scotsman" is its been rebuilt so many times its difficult to say whether it is authentic or not. To recap:-

1) When built in 1922 it had a 180 psi boiler with a round dome. This was fairly low pressure by the standards of the time. The physical smaller GWR "Castle" 4-6-0's were able to out perform the Gresley Pacifics, as demonstrated in the 1924 exchange where "Pendennis Castle" out performed the Gresley's on their home turf and using Yorkshire coal rather than its normal diet of Welsh. As a result of this the LMS decided to opt for large 4-6-0's (the Royal Scot class) rather than Pacifics.

2) By the 1930's Gresley had fitted most of his A1 Pacifics with 250psi boilers, these rebuilds being classifed A3. Flying Scotsman however was only rebuilt to to this spec in 1947.

3) In BR days a number of A3's, including "Flying Scotsman" were rebuilt with newer boilers, double chimneys and German type smoke deflectors. When bought for preservations by Alan Pegler in 1963, Mr. Pegler also bought a 1930's type boiler from another A3, which he fitted to Flying Scotsman to give it the 1930;s look. The fact that it had not received such a boiler until 1947 did not deter him.

So from the above it can be said that Flying Scotsman has never been preserved in authentic condition. The upside of this is it runs better and the NRM are relaxed about making mods to it as its main function in their collection is to be a mainline capable locomotive.

[John Bakeer]

M636C,
You are well adrift from the sublime to suggest the destruction of part of our heritage.
Flying Scotsman is in the midst of a major overhaul and will remain as we know it.

[M636C]

Any word on the project to rebuild Flying Scotsman into a Thompson A1/1?

Doesn't it already have the A4 boiler which was a major part of the Thompson rebuild?

Tornado will be almost the same as an A1/1, but with longer outside connecting rods. Apparently Thompson was concerned with having all the connecting rods the same length for balancing purposes which was the cause of the rear-set cylinders on the Thompson rebuilds. The A1/1 was faster and more reliable than the A3s until K.J.Cook tightened up the clearances post WWII.

M636C

[John Bakeer]

David,

Don't go there!

[Tulyar15]

I should think with all the spare parts they've got, they could build another LNER Pacific! Or perhaps a Gresley P1 2-8-2 as these employed the same cylinders and boiler as the A3. (A rare example of standardisation on the LNER, normally something anathema to Gresley!)

[BR60103]

Any word on the project to rebuild Flying Scotsman into a Thompson A1/1?

[John Bakeer]

Tulyar,
It's difficult to judge whether the projects you describe are new or re-builds as substantial parts are re-cycled.
Any effort to enlarge the fleet of available main line steamers is to be lauded.

[Tulyar15]

On the Avon Valley Railway near Bristol, on which I'm a volunteer worker, we've got a boiler from an extinct class of London & South Western 0-4-4T. So it is planned to build a new loco around the boiler. The Bluebell Railway are building a new Brighton Atlantic, using a boiler from a Great Northern large Atlantic, which the Brighton Atlantics were closely based on. Some of the Great Western society's more ambitious kit bashing projects may involve new boilers, whilst for their steam railmotor they've built a whole new engine unit (see my earlier post concerning Messrs. Israel Newton of Bradford). There;s also talk at the Severn Valley of building a new BR 3 82000 class 2-6-2T using wheels rescued from a BR 4 2-6-0 that was unlucky enough to be one of the few steam locos Dai Woodham cut up.

[John Bakeer]

Simon,
Thank you for your kind invitation, perhaps I will some time. It goes without saying that same applies if you find yourself near Stockport station.
The A1 project is well funded and it is just a matter of time now before we see a new steamer on the main line. I am not aware of any other full size projects although there are numerous restoration and narrow gauge schemes in hand.

[Tulyar15]

Didn't North British build steam loco's for Newfoundland?

Quite possibly, most of the locos  they built went for export, and they exported them all over the world. I gather one of the last orders for steam locos they had were some oil burning, Caprotti valve gear fitted Pacifics for a railway in Argentina. But these locos suffered from poor build quality, and did not have long lives.

As to the question of building new steam locos, I think it's a question of economics. The Ffestiniog Railway built a new Double Fairlie, the present "Earl of Merioneth" in 1977 because they decided it would be cheaper than overhauling the existing one (which has now reverted  to its original name of "Livingston Thompson" and has been stuffed and mounted). Since then the FR have built another new Double Fairlie ("David Lloyd George") and a new single Fairlie ("Tailiesin") and are current build a new Lynton & Barnstaple 2-6-2T (as are the people re-building the L & B).

Likewise the Corris Railway decided to build a new loco because they decided it would be cheaper than adapting an East European loco to fit their restriced loading gauge. They are now thinking of building a second new loco but they've not decided whether it will be another "Tattoo" class ( of which CR/TR #4 "Edward Thomas" is one of several surviving examples, likewise "Tankil No. 3", the loco built in 1971) or a replica of CR/TR #3 "Sir Haydyn". There are several problems with the latter, including the lack of a complete set of drawings and the fact that "Sir Haydyn" is not a very maintenance friendly loco and a bit of a rough rider.

[Simon Reed]

John, you should have popped in for a brew if you were passing Newton's, it's only 5 minutes from our house!

I read somewhere recently (can't remember where) that there's a company in Darlington currently making traction engine replicas - complete with boilers - and that they're considering "upsizing" into the locomotive business.

They're associated with the new-build G5 project.

Having said that I've also read that the "Clan" project have been evicted from Swanage.

Whilst the A1 will doubtless be at large shortly I'm yet to be convinced that all of these projects to build a new standard gauge steam loco can be viable. There are still a good number of scrap condition steam locos dotted around the country that seem to lack the financial or human resources for restoration.

I don't think there's anything unique but I'm sure that many preserved lines would love a Black 5, GWR 41xx etc if they could be restored.    

[Hugh Jampton]

A question concerning the LCR high-speed-ROW from London to the Chunnel. Are there any plans to use it for fast commuter-trains from the southeast of England into London? I could imagine branch-lines beeing built to continental clearances served by commuter-trains taking advantage of higher top-speeds on the new high-speed-ROW.

Yes, starting in 2008 (the line opens next year) trains built by Hitachi will service St Pancras, Stratford, Ebbsfleet and Ashford, with a few other places thrown in.
Full details can be found at;
http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/4

[John Bakeer]

I should think that when the LCR is up and running to full capacity it will have enough on its hands without the hassle of stopping and branch line services. A better option would be to upgrade the existing local network.
New funland, isn't that a Disney enterprise?
I do have a modest grasp of history, I understand that the Britsh started this whole thing hauling coal around, and before that conquering 3/5ths of the world and then giving them railroads.

[martin.knoepfel]

A question concerning the LCR high-speed-ROW from London to the Chunnel. Are there any plans to use it for fast commuter-trains from the southeast of England into London? I could imagine branch-lines beeing built to continental clearances served by commuter-trains taking advantage of higher top-speeds on the new high-speed-ROW.

[Isambard]

Martin, Newfoundland is part of the Dominion of Canada a British Commonwealth country, not the United States of America. -----------.

Newfoundland (usually pronounced newfunland) joined Canada as its 10th province in 1949, and is officially known as Newfoundland and Labrador. Prior to that time Newfoundland had been a self governing colony of Britain, except during the period 1934 to 1949 when due to economic difficulties it was governed by a Commision of Government headed by a British governor.

Canada dropped the use of the term Dominion as part of its title in 1949.

Thus ends this little history lesson.

[John Bakeer]

Sorry Marc,
A senior moment I'm afraid.

[John Bakeer]

Martin,
Newfoundland is part of the Dominion of Canada a British Commonwealth country, not the United States of America.
The Clayton (EE) part of the Brush type4 would in all likelyhood to have been the steam generator for carraige heating. these were also made by Stone-Vapor & Spanner and installed across the entire fleet of deisel passenger locomotives. All current main line passenger stock is electrically heated/air conditioned. As the load can be anything from 600 to 1,000 HP, this has resulted in the need for an extra locomotive on many trains.