British Railway Operations

[Murphy Siding]

     How old, in general, is the equipment on British railways?  I know there are lots of new Class 66 locomotives around.  What of the other locomotives and cars?

[John Bakeer]

My understanding of the Peaks extra idle axle (pony truck) was to help them get round corners.

NIHIL DICE.

[John Bakeer]

Our trains and buses only run when the operators expect to make a profit, my experience is that passengers are an inconvenience and should be made to pay top dollar for the privilege of daring to use their services.

Our government(s) believe(s) in competition in everything, therefore buses compete with trains and with each other thereby leaving the public with a system totally lacking integration. A few local authorities are trying to break the vicious circle, but they are working against the system.

Euro tunnel and Euro star operates broadly as above.

NIHIL DICE.

[martin.knoepfel]

Another change of subject.

The Swiss newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung wrote, trains were no alternatives for airline-passangers stranded at Heathrow-Airport due to thick fog. The reason: in the UK, trains do not run on dec. 25th and 26th. Is this true? If so, why? Of course, nobody would run commuter-trains on Christmas and Boxing-Day, but wouldn't be be at least sufficient patronage for a reduced sunday- or holiday-timetable? And what about Eurostar and the Chunnel-trains for trucks and cars?

[Simon Reed]

Many many pages ago we discussed the Class 44-46 "Peaks."

Although now long gone they are remembered with great fondness by the men who worked them for their sure-footedness and acceleration.

Whilst the 1-Co-Co-1 wheel arrangement was primarily designed, as above, to reduce axle loadings it has the side effect of enabling a quick getaway.

The propensity of any vehicle under acceleration is to "lean backwards." In rail terms this is best illustrated by the very un-American concept of the 2-6-4 tank loco, which was primarily developed by evolution as a suburban machine capable of maintaining tight point to point timings.

The trailing truck (the "4") served to distribute and thereby dissipate the downforces generated in acceleration, reducing the possibility of wheelslip under heavy acceleration on a damp rail. The trailing axle on a Peak served the same purpose.

If you consider the power distribution characteristics of front -v- rear wheel drive cars you'll follow the logic.

I suspect that the concept of an unpowered axle never caught on in North America because of the emphasis there on horsepower over performance.      

[Tulyar15]

     Questions about Class 44 "Peak" locomotives....I was reading a train book (go figure), about Class 44's, and was surprised to see they were of a 1-Co-Co-1.  It didn't make any sense to me, to have unpowered axles.  Since it appears they were used for express passenger train, was it to improve high speed handling characteristics?

In the late 1940's civil engineers were concerned about the weight of the early prototype diesel and gas turbine locos, so in several cases extra axles were added to reduce the axle weight. The first main line diesel locos to run in Britain, LMS #10000 had a 21 ton axle weight and Co-Co wheel arrangement (and was powered by an English Electric 4stroke V16 engine which would see use, progressively uprated, in the BR Class 40. 50 and 56 diesel electric locos and in several similar locos built by EE for export, such as the Portuguese 1800 class

The Southern railway, being a fan of all things EE wanted to order similar locos for its lines in SW England where it realised electrification would never be viable. But because many of these lines were restricted to an 18 ton axle weight, it chose a 1Co-Co1 chassis. (The design of the chassis was based on the existing Co-Co Electric locos the SR had built during WW2. ). The three prototype SR diesels formed the basis of the Class 40 diesels built for BR by EE in the 1950's.

By the 1950's Sulzer engines had established a track record in rail use. In Britain the Birmingham Carriage & Wagon Co had built diesel locos with 6 cylinder single bank Sulzer engine for railways in Australia, Ireland and a number of African countries. Similarly powered locos were built for BR (classes 26/7) and BR themselves built about 500 such locos in their own workshops at Derby, Crewe and Darlington. Interestingly the BR ones were Bo-Bo but the ones supplied to Ireland were of A1A-A1A wheel arrangement (again to reduce axle weight!). Since the 12 cylinder Sulzer engine was heavier than the 16 cylinder English Electric one referred to above (but more powerful, 2,300hp against 2000hp) BR decided to adopt the same chassis for the "Peak" class diesel locos. The initial batch of 10 had their engines rated at 2300hp, but the production batch had their engines uprated to 2,500hp. In service one a few teething troubles were sorted out they gave good service. Under the TOPS classification schemm the original pilot batch of 10 becaome Class 44, the production ones with electical components made by Crompton Parkinson became class 45 whilst the final production batch had electricals by Brush and became Class 46.

In due course the Sulzer engine was uprated to 2,700 hp and improved body constructional techniques enabled Brush to design a Co-Co loco with the 2,700 engine but with a lighter axle weight than the "Peaks" - these became the 500 strong Class 47. (In fact the Birmingham Carriage & Wagon Co had built such a beast in its bid to get the order for 500 2,700hp locos from BR, but that firms bankrutpcy resulted in it having to sell its prototype loco (to Brush!) who won the contest with a design stolen from a (by then bankrupt) competitor.

     More interesting, though, was  their "Sulzer twin-bank engines (with two parallel crank shafts in the same crankcase)".  What would be the advantage of designing an engine like that?  By 1959, vee-type engines with a single crankcase were pretty common.  Why build something odd?

     Thanks

I do not know much of the earlier history of the twin bank Sulzer engine though I gather it was used in some French diesel locos which were still running quite recently. Brush supplies some class 47's to Cuba (these have now been scrapped) and then went on to build the "Kestrel" which had a similar body to a 47 but a 16cylinder 4000hp Sulzer engine. This loco was claimed to be the most powerful diesel loco in the world when it was built in 1967 but BR were not interested and it was eventually sold to Russia. When BR next ordered some diesel locos in 1974 they specified that Brush had to use the EE 16cylinder engine - now uprated to 3,300hp and the resulting class became BR Class 56. Ironically as Brush did not have the capacity their share of the order (the first 30 locoes) were built in Romanis, the rest in BR workshops at Doncaster and Crewe. No more Sulzer engined locos were ordered by BR after the class 47's and Brush's final offering to BR, the Class 60's employed a straight 8 cylinder Mirrlees engine.

[John Bakeer]

Mirrlees-Blackstone here in Stockport were building twin crankshaft machines in the early 1980's as I had responsibility for using them in combined heat and power systems for industrial installations. They were a bit on the large size though.

NIHIL DICE.

[beaulieu]

Easier to balance in the days before you had computers to calculate the firing order. It is said the EMD simulated 55,000 different possible firing orders for their V20 before find the one with the least stress on the crankshaft, and still they had problems with breaking crankshafts. Also having two geared together means having a shorter crankshaft.

[Murphy Siding]

     Questions about Class 44 "Peak" locomotives....I was reading a train book (go figure), about Class 44's, and was surprised to see they were of a 1-Co-Co-1.  It didn't make any sense to me, to have unpowered axles.  Since it appears they were used for express passenger train, was it to improve high speed handling characteristics?

     More interesting, though, was  their "Sulzer twin-bank engines (with two parallel crank shafts in the same crankcase)".  What would be the advantage of designing an engine like that?  By 1959, vee-type engines with a single crankcase were pretty common.  Why build something odd?

     Thanks

[John Bakeer]

With apologies to Tulyar,

Another reason for topping and tailing is that in the absence of run round facilities at some  destinations all the driver has to do is walk to the other end. as all modern passenger stock is air conditioned the drain on the locomotive generator is substantial, so where a single 37 could do the work an extra one is added (a lot of 37's have been released with the introduction of DMU's in Scotland etc.). Nevertheless as Tulyar states freight trains will need two crews.

Amend Tulyars first para. delete 'assisting loco'. add 'following train'.

NIHIL DICE.

[Tulyar15]

These days the drivers all have radios so if a lone driver gets into difficulties of any sort he can call for help. In the old days the protocol was that the driver would walk forward to the next signal box whilst the guard (conductor) would walk back, and place detonators behind the train to warn the crew of an assisting loco.

 The practice of using helper (or bankers as we call  them here) locos to help trains up steep grades used to be come in Britain but nowadays is confined to a few steep grades. One such is the Lickey Incline on the Birmingham - Gloucester line. It's 2 miles of 1 in 37 (2.7%). For many years in the days of steam it was the home of the only 10 coupled steam loco in Britain. This 4 cylinder behemoth, nicknamed "Big Bertha" was built in 1920 and finally replaced in 1956 by a BR Standard 2-10-0. The 2-10-0 inheried Big Bertha's large headlamp; unusually for a British loco she had a large headlamp to help the crews see in the dark when buffering up to a train. Nowadays a small batch of about 5 class 66's are used, with special modified front couplings so they can uncouple at the top without having to stop.

[Murphy Siding]

Your quite right. MurphySiding, "Top and tailed" means having a loco at each end.

 In general with freight trains this means having a crew in each loco, but with passenger trains, most of the passenger cars are thru wired for mutiple working so the locos and either end are working in mutilple, with just one driver in the leading cab.

     I take this to be similar to what we would call a helper, or pusher locomotive, added only on steeper grades, with heavy trains?

     Speaking of just one driver.....This forum has had several threads about one man crews.  In Britain, where one man crews are common, what is the proceedure, if he has problems out on the line?

[John Bakeer]

Hi Murphy,

Tulyar has answered your question for me, he is absolutely correct.

NIHIL DICE.

[Tulyar15]

Your quite right. MurphySiding, "Top and tailed" means having a loco at each end.

 In general with freight trains this means having a crew in each loco, but with passenger trains, most of the passenger cars are thru wired for mutiple working so the locos and either end are working in mutilple, with just one driver in the leading cab.

[Murphy Siding]

The trains that convey rock through Stockport (mainly at night) are usually topped and tailed. I have not seen any in MU mode.

NIHIL DICE.

     John:  Can you tell me again what "topped and tailed" means?  I seem to recall it meant the train had a locomotive on each end?   Thanks

[John Bakeer]

GNER are in financial difficulties and their franchise is up for grabs, looks like they made a bad deal with the government by agreeing too high a payback after over estimating passenger growth. Where are they?

NIHIL DICE.

[John Bakeer]

The rock trains I have seen are usually hauled by a pair of Yanks-56-66-etc.

I used to get 'Railway Magazine' it had a section devoted to comings and goings or something like that. There are now so many railway mags. It wll be pot look finding such info. But it'll be in there some where.

NIHIL DICE.

[Tulyar15]

What locos are these trains worked by?

 I went to Glouceste last night and saw a couple of rakes of First Great Western Mk 2 coaches stabled, with a Cotswold Rail 47 at either end. If anyone knows what routes/services they plan to use these on I'd like to know

[John Bakeer]

The trains that convey rock through Stockport (mainly at night) are usually topped and tailed. I have not seen any in MU mode.

NIHIL DICE.

[M636C]

55 015 Tulyar - Deltic Preservation Society, Barrow Hill

    Hmmmm....I thought Tulyar 15 was the name of a racehorse of the equine variety, not the diesel variety.  Who got to name the locomotives anyhow?

You have to think back to 1962 when the Deltics were introduced. They literally replaced the A4 Pacifics that had been running for 25 years or so and the railway organisation hadn't changed. The locomotives were allocated to locomotive depots at Finsbury Park (34G) just north of London, Gateshead (52A) near Newcastle on Tyne and Haymarket (64B), near Edinburgh, these of course being the locations (if not the exact depots) used by the steam locomotives.

The London based locomotives were named after racehorses, as were many of the steam locomotives on this service. The Newcastle based locomotives were named after English regiments of the British Army (particulary those from nearby) and the Edinburgh based locomotives were named after Scottish regiments. Newcastle had two fewer locomotives than the capital city depots.

It is probably worth pointing out that when the "TOPS" numbers were introduced, an attempt was made to retain the final digits the same, so D9000 and D9001 to D9021 became 55022 and 55001 to 55021 respectively (since "000" was not used as a number in that system).

M636C

[Tulyar15]

I know on the Ebbw (pronounced "Eb-oo" ) Vale line Class 60's were preferred to 66's. On one occassion a 66 stalled with a steel train and had to be assisted by a 37, whereas a 60 had managed to re-start a heavier train.

Although EWS have retired all their class 31, 33 and 47's, a number of these locos are still in use with Open Access operators.

[beaulieu]

      I'm reading a book by Brian Hollingsworth about locomotives.  He writes that the 3300h.p. Class 66 retired all the class 31, 33, and 47 units, and most of the class 37 units.  After raving about the class 66, he ends by saying that they haul all but the heaviest trains.  I thought most British trains weren't what we Americans would consider "heavy".  What locomotives are used on the heavier trains?  Don't they MU locomotives for that?   Thanks

 

Murphy, the British built Class 60 locomotives, or EW&S' small batch of Class 59/2s work the heaviest trains. The Class 66s were spec'd as more general purpose machines. The Class 59s which preceeded the Class 66s were the equivilent to a SD40-2SS, with heavy duty traction alternator and motors. With the Class 66 EW&S ordered larger fuel tanks, and changing requirements required larger mufflers. To balance the weight of the extra fuel, they are equipped with lower capacity alternator and traction motors. They are more comparible to a US GP59, reasonable pulling power, but good speed, 75 mph capability. The other big UK freight operator, Freightliner, ordered a batch of Class 66 with a lower gear ratio which increased their pulling power.

[Murphy Siding]

      I'm reading a book by Brian Hollingsworth about locomotives.  He writes that the 3300h.p. Class 66 retired all the class 31, 33, and 47 units, and most of the class 37 units.  After raving about the class 66, he ends by saying that they haul all but the heaviest trains.  I thought most British trains weren't what we Americans would consider "heavy".  What locomotives are used on the heavier trains?  Don't they MU locomotives for that?   Thanks

[Tulyar15]

 An Anglo Scottish High Speed line would reduce demand for air travel and render the proposed new airports unnecessary.

     Could it compete with the airlines?

Absolutely. The distance is similar to Paris - Lyon. Experience there and also with the Chunnel shows that once you bring the journey time between two cities by rail down to 3 hours or less, rail wins hands down. Since the Chunnel opened, Eurostar now has 2/3rds of the total market for travelling between London and Paris and 80% of the premium business market. The opening of the second phase of the High Speed Channel Tunnel Rail Link (CTRL) in to London St. Pancras will make rail competitive for journeys to places further afield on the continent.

[John Bakeer]

In the 1960s following the post war modernisation programme of BR which included the electrifiction of the WCML. The new loco hauled trains were scheduled at 100mph and became known as the 'Ton Up Trains'. These wiped the floor with the then available aircraft. However the almost complete lack of investment in BR over the following 30 odd years ably assisted by the ruin brought about by Beeching left the line in decline. The recent investment has returned the competitive edge to the railroad. How long this will last will depend on the lessons of the past being learned. This past gives me no feeling of confidence, more 'deja-vous'.
Talk of the ECML being able to take any forthcoming slack is not on as it is gathering custom at the same rate and wiill be saturated at about the same time, the east/west links (where they exist?) are already at full stretch.
A glance at the Trainline web site will show that the busines customer is being squeezed to the last drop already.
Some salvation is on the horizon in the shape of Central Railway which should help lighten the load as a central corridor with links to Manchester and possibly Leeds.

[Murphy Siding]

 An Anglo Scottish High Speed line would reduce demand for air travel and render the proposed new airports unnecessary.

     Could it compete with the airlines?

[daveklepper]

Cannot incremental improvements be made to the existing East Coast main to put it into the really high speed catagory?   It would be hard to find a clear path for a new line, and the takings of buildings would probably be just as great as for improving the existing one.

[MStLfan]

Worse, they'll just jack up the fares to cut off demand.

< snip >

An Anglo Scottish High Speed line would reduce demand for air travel and render the proposed new airports unnecessary.

Sad but true. Politicians seem to think that you can treat trains like air travel but it is a much more hop on hop off system than air travel.

Is an Anglo Scottish high speed line longer than say Paris - Lyon or Paris - London?

If the total time by train is less than the total time by air it will win hands down, every time it seems.

greetings,

Marc Immeker

 

[Tulyar15]

Worse, they'll just jack up the fares to cut off demand. This should not be allowed to happen when the government is claiming that it wants people to adopt greener forms of transport, and rail is a lot greener than air. Virgin Trains would like to buy extra cars to make the Pendolinos 11 car instead of the present 9 car formations, but without the necessary guarantees they can not do this.

Sadly the government seems more interested in building more airports, despite concerns about climate change, than investing in rail. An Anglo Scottish High Speed line would reduce demand for air travel and render the proposed new airports unnecessary.

[John Bakeer]

Just heard on the 0600 news, the WCML is proving to be too good for its own good passenger numbers are increasing at such a rate that they estimate it will reach saturation in less than ten years. Whats the betting that instead of starting planning for expansion now and having the additional capacity on hand for when it's needed. They will wait for the crunch and then raise their hands in panic saying "we didn't expect this to happen"!