British Railway Operations

[devils]

murphy

Gods Wonderful Railway (The Great Western) stretched from London, through to the South West of England, through South Wales and even as far as Midlands and Mid/ North Wales through various alliances and the like. It was possibly, the biggest of the big 4 after the '23 Grouping, although the Southern under Sir Herbert Walker was the more advanced.  As for where the term viaduct comes from - I think it is a Latin derivative - I do not know.

The Great Western was the dominant railway in Cornwall, but not the only one. The other "rival" was the London and South Western, most of whose network has now disappeared into the ether in the county. In fact, I think it has entirely. There were also various mineral railways dotted about. The Cornish railway was originally built to broad gauge, and they redesigned following the conversion (in a weekend!) to standard gauge and as a result also rebuilt a lot of the viaducts. The Falmouth branch (which I used to signal) has a plenty which you alluded to. Also the climate here probabley didin't help the cause for timber.

Get yer backside over and see. Cornwall in the summer is fantastic for a start (I would say that) and there are some simply brilliant branch trips to be had - The Looe and St Ives are definates and the Gunnislake is another.

 

Cogload (masquerading......)

 

[Murphy Siding]

     Timber viaducts by Brunel:

St. Germans Viaduct, & St. Pinnock Viaduct (1859)on the Plymout to Truro section of the Cornwall Railway

Landore Viaduct  over the River Tawe, South Whales Railway

Redruth on the West Cornwall Line (1852)

Grover Viaduct on the Plymout-Troro line

Penponds, on the West Cornwall, between Truro and Penzance

     It seems the Falmouth branch had eight viaducts built after Brunel died, but following his design ideas.

     Two questions: 1) Why do they call them viaducts, and not bridges?  2) I know Brunel is associated with the Great Western Railway.  Was the GWR mostly in Cornwell?

 

[Murphy Siding]

     In a book about bridges and bridge engineering, there was a photo of some of the early bridges built by Brunel-out of wood!  A photo showed a railroad bridge  61 feet (18.6M) above the surrounding countryside, noting that it was later replaced by a masonry bridge.  In my part of the world-flat farm land, wooden bridges and trestles are still very common on branch lines.  Are they very common in Britain, given there is such a tradition of masonry construction there?

[John Bakeer]

  I recollect about the time I got interested in the Trains forums (2004-5) there was a lengthy discussion about a Baldwin Atlantic imported by someone. It was erected by the L & Y, ran a few miles but had problems with clearances etc. It failed to raise any interest and eventually went for scrap, it had a bell which if my memory serves me right is with the NRM. Again I think it was the only direct import of a USA standard gauge locomotive prior to WWII.

The Riddles WD2-8-0s were built to UK loading gauge, consequently surviving right to the end of steam, the American samples saw service all over Europe and the Middle East where the more generous loading gauge suited them. The KWVR have a Polish? or Rumanian? USA built WD2-8-0, the Southern Railway had a number of USA 0-6-0 tanks that lasted well into BR days, the only WD2-10-0 I Know of was Gordon on the Longmoor Military Railway, who built it and where it is? I do not know. 

The only US loco' to be fitted with Walschaerts vlve motion was UP's 3 cylinder  2-12-2 as built the had the Gresley conjugated system, as the UP shops had problems setting them a third set of motion was added to the RHS leading to a rather odd appearance. Apparently they enjoyed some success but were soon replaced by articulated because the long rigid wheel base caused problems in yards etc.
  

[mhurley87f]

Railroad is an Americanism over here. Although, rather like "FALL" it is probabley the correct term.

As has been stated "the road is off" or "getting the road" is used very very frequently.

.

On a more cynical note, sorry optimistic, £19m has been thrown at the Merthyr branch in Welsh Wales and £35m at the Glasgow and South Western. There couldn't be any elections coming up could there?  

True enough, the Elections for the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly Government are comin up in May.

Let's get things in perspective, 'though. £19m would buy approximately 35-40 3-Bedroom semi-detached houses facing Roath Park Lake in Cardiff, or perhaps 10 nice "country houses" like those you see in Horse & Hound Magazine (not that I read that sort of crap) in the Monmouth Abergavenny area.

All we're getting looks like reinstating a loop somewhere in the Black Lion - Merthyr Vale area by laying 2 miles of new track, a minor bit of signalling work,and tarting up two stations!!

Our Political Masters greeted the news as an investment in a Key Commuter Route. Shame no-one poicked them up on the money they've wasted over the years "hamstringing" services on those very same Key Commuter Routes by singling what had earlier been double track lines (in the case of the Rhondda Fawr, quadruple would you believe) in the Valley Lines Network !!

Still, mustn't grumble !! I know who'se getting my vote.

Martin

 

 

 

[Tulyar15]

I think that's the opinion from what I've read on the subject; I suspect also they had a number of what would be in a British context non-standard features.

On the other hand, British designers were well aware of developments in the USA. It is well known that Gresley based the design of his A1/A3 Pacifics (of which "Flying Scotsman" is the only survivor) on the Pennsylvania K4 Pacifics. Conversely ALCO bought the rights to use Gresleys conjugated valve gear (enabling the valves on 3 cylinder locos to be operated with 2 sets of Walschearts gear) in North America and used it on a number of their products.

[Murphy Siding]

Not Quite!

In about 1900 all British loco manufacturers had more orders than they could meet. So a number of railways, notably the Midland, the Great Northern and the Great Central purchased 2-6-0's from Bawldin. But these locos did not have a long life.

  To what would you attribute their short lives?  Were Baldwin loco's built to a different quality standard than British loco's of the time?

[Tulyar15]

Not Quite!

In about 1900 all British loco manufacturers had more orders than they could meet. So a number of railways, notably the Midland, the Great Northern and the Great Central purchased 2-6-0's from Bawldin. But these locos did not have a long life.

During WW2 US built 0-6-0T's and 2-8-0's were used in Britain. Some of the 0-6-0T's were purchased by the Southern Railway, but most were exported to Europe as were the 2-8-0s apart from a couple which remained on the Longmoor Military Railway in Hampshire. Some of these engines can still be found in E Europe. The 0-6-0T's were copied by both the Yugoslav and Polish railways and further examples built.

It was a result of the Irish experience with EMD (having bought lots of unreliable British built diesel locos in the 1950's they switched to EMD in the 1960's and have bought nothing else since then.).locos that British Rail decided to dip its toe in the water by allowing one of its freight customers to purchase its own locos from EMD. These became Class 59 and were an instant success. As a result when privitisation happened and BR's freight operations were bought by Ed Burklardt it was a foregone conclusion that he would buy EMD locos. Since then the Class 66 has been bought by railways all over Europe.

[Murphy Siding]

   Something interesting I found in a generic sort of book called The Illustrated History of British Railway by Geofrey Freeman Allen:caption under a photo.  "As traffic increased steadily on Britain's railways, locomotives capable of hauling the increased loads became in short supply.  The Midland attempted to overcome this problem by purchasing 'kits' from the Baldwin Locomotive Works in the U.S.A.  Assembly was at Derby works where this photograph was taken about 1900.  The photo shows a locomotive under assembly.  It does not not have wheels or cab yet, but has the British type buffers.   Was this the great grand-father of the Class 66 program?

[John Bakeer]

Simon,

Unless you are a cyclist, and then all rules about pavements, footpaths, pedestrian only areas, traffic signals, signs, the highway code etc. do not apply.

From my viewing of cowboy films, I deduce that a depot handles frieght and passengers and a  way station had relays of horses stabled for the stage coachs along with passenger comforts. Many early railroads paralelled or followed said stage routes.

Funny you should mention elections Devils. As a pensioner I can't help but notice the odd carrot being cast in our direction. Unfortunately because I have modest savings and a small company pension, all I get are tax increases. I think there could be a lot of labour councillors made redundant come the May local elections.

[Simon Reed]

There are all sorts of linguistical inconsistancies between our countries - for example if I drove on the pavement in the UK, which you stateside folk do all the time, I would be arrested. Our pavement is your sidewalk.

Another rail-specific one which springs to mind is the place at which passenger trains stop. I read in US books and magazines of this being called either a station or a depot. Is there some historical or geographical explanation for this dual usage?

In the UK a passenger facility is invariably called a station. We use the word depot (although we pronounce it DEP-oh) primarily to signify a maintenance facility for trains or buses. Historically it was also used to signify a frieght trans-shipment facility although this usage has fallen out of currency primarily because these facilities have been replaced by nodal hubs.  

[al-in-chgo]

An interesting question of semantics.

In the UK the use of the word "Railroad" would unquestionably be described as an Americanism and is certainly not in common parlance.

"Road" by itself, however, is a commonly used term amongst rail employees - examples would be a train given authority to proceed by signallers (despatchers) which would be said to "have the road." A driver (engineer) familiar with a particular route would be said to "know the road."

Conversely, in North American parlance civil engineering works are known as "Maintenance of WAY."    

   

 

*************************************************************************

In the USA, people have to park in the driveway but they get to drive on the parkway! 

Does that make any sense in British vernacular? 

;) Al

 

[Simon Reed]

Just like that - we call it Autumn here.

Not sure that your cynicsm is entirely justified Devils - The G&SW has been long overdue for heavy investment to increase capacity for Hunterston etc. traffic, and also to make it a more viable diversionary alternative for WCML.

I would also have to question the political currency of a G&SW upgrade - it's hardly a key corridor through heavily populated marginals.    

 

[Murphy Siding]

 Although, rather like "FALL" it is probabley the correct term.

? Like spring, summer, fall?

[devils]

Railroad is an Americanism over here. Although, rather like "FALL" it is probabley the correct term.

As has been stated "the road is off" or "getting the road" is used very very frequently.

.

On a more cynical note, sorry optimistic, £19m has been thrown at the Merthyr branch in Welsh Wales and £35m at the Glasgow and South Western. There couldn't be any elections coming up could there?  

[Simon Reed]

An interesting question of semantics.

In the UK the use of the word "Railroad" would unquestionably be described as an Americanism and is certainly not in common parlance.

"Road" by itself, however, is a commonly used term amongst rail employees - examples would be a train given authority to proceed by signallers (despatchers) which would be said to "have the road." A driver (engineer) familiar with a particular route would be said to "know the road."

Conversely, in North American parlance civil engineering works are known as "Maintenance of WAY."    

[Tulyar15]

As far as I know, we always use the term 'railway' or shortened to 'rail'

In the very early days I believe one or two companies used the term 'railroad' here but it did not catch on here. (In Wales, the Welsh word for railway "Rheilffordd" literally translates as rail road!. In quite a few European languages including French, Italian and Spanish their words for rail road translate as "iron road").

Some early railways were called tramways or tramroads (or in one case "The South Gloucestershire and River Avon Dramroad" - that last word was an alternative for 'tram' - sounds a bit Scottish).

[al-in-chgo]

************************************

Please pardon me if this has come up beforehand in this very long post--

At least, pre-privatization, were British train systems, lines, or companies ever referred to as anything other than a "railway"? 

Consensus here seems to be that in the US (probably not in Canada), both "railway" and "railroad" are used.  There is a very limited usage, I've been told, in which railway is preferable to mean "this particular line"; otherwise they seem to be just a matter of tradition--

--and when tradition must fall, many a railROAD has gone into a merger or holding company as (or with) new railWAY, and probably the opposite.  So I might as well ask, given all these years of privatization, if someone has tried that semantic shift in the UK.  I guess it really isn't unethical.  But is "railroad" seen in the UK as such an Americanism that it really wouldn't feel quite right to use it? ? 

A grateful nation awaits your reply.

Vty,

Al ("al-in-chgo")

 

 

[devils]

The Kent and East Sussex Was a Col. Stephens Job. In a former life I used to work on a farm which abutted Northiam Station.

Cogload

(masquerading as devils).

[Tulyar15]

Holman F Stephens trained as an apprentice on the Metropolitan Railway, before WW1. During the WW1 he served with the Royal Engineers, rising to the rank of Colonel. After the war he came into some money which he used to buy up ailing light railways. These include the Kent & East Sussex, the East Kent and the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire. He managed to keep all these running thru the difficult economic climate of the 1930's when a lot of similar lines closed down. His lines became magnets for railfans because of the all the old locos and rolling stock they acquired.

Athough most of Col. Stephens lines had been excluded from the 1923 Grouping which created the Big Four companies, those that survived in 1948, which included the first two mentioned above, were nationalised. The two Kent lines mentioned above have now been preserved, while the Shropshire and Montgomeryshire was taken over by the British Army on the outbreak of WW2 (the sparsely populated areas of those counties made it in an ideal place to site ammunition dumps etc) and carried on under Army ownership until 1960.

[MStLfan]

Several times I have come across the name of a colonel Stephens. He seemed to be involved with financially less well of minor railways.

Can anybody give some details about the man, his company and his railroads?

thanks,

greetings,

Marc Immeker

[Tulyar15]

Thank you for your interesting answer, Peter Harris. IMHO, the airlines should have at least payed hotel-rooms for their stranded passengers. Considering hotel-costs in London, it would most probably be cheaper to direct some passengers onto a train and inform them properly and accordingly.

My wife and I were stranded in Miami about a year ago when our connecting flight home was cancelled and later flights were badly delayed due to a severe snowstorm over Chicago.  The airline rep advised us that the airline would pick up our hotel tab only if the delay was due to mechanical problems, not the weather.  I would assume that most carriers worldwide have the same policy regarding weather delays.

A neighbour of mine got stucvk at London Heathrow in the fog. Eventually he ended up travelling to Europe by Eurostar and was very impressed. So Eurostar gains another convert!

[John Bakeer]

And yet they can find billions for the totally pointless olympics. Our tramway expansion has been sacrificed on this sacred cow!

[Tulyar15]

They've just whacked up the fares on UK trains by more than either need or inflation! Why?

Because too many people want to use them!!

I give up!

I know what you mean. Despite Tony B's promises. a joined up UK Govt policy on transport and the environment etc seems as far away as ever. On the one hand the Stern report said we need to act on GLobal Warming, so we should be encouraging rail and not building more airports. But the Eddington report on transport said precisely the opposite! (But then not really surprising since Sir Rod Eddington is a former director of British Airways!).

But the real problem is that the final control of government policy lies with the treasury, who are very short sighted! Like most accountants, those at the Treasury know the price of everything but don’t appreciate the value of anything. For example they are against improvements to public transport because they'd would get less tax revenue from petrol if more people ditched their cars. Talk about not seeing the big picture!

[John Bakeer]

They've just whacked up the fares on UK trains by more than either need or inflation! Why?

Because too many people want to use them!!

I give up!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Thank you for your interesting answer, Peter Harris. IMHO, the airlines should have at least payed hotel-rooms for their stranded passengers. Considering hotel-costs in London, it would most probably be cheaper to direct some passengers onto a train and inform them properly and accordingly.

My wife and I were stranded in Miami about a year ago when our connecting flight home was cancelled and later flights were badly delayed due to a severe snowstorm over Chicago.  The airline rep advised us that the airline would pick up our hotel tab only if the delay was due to mechanical problems, not the weather.  I would assume that most carriers worldwide have the same policy regarding weather delays.

[martin.knoepfel]

Thank you for your interesting answer, Peter Harris. IMHO, the airlines should have at least payed hotel-rooms for their stranded passengers. Considering hotel-costs in London, it would most probably be cheaper to direct some passengers onto a train and inform them properly and accordingly.

[prbharris]

Another change of subject.

The Swiss newspaper Neue Zürcher Zeitung wrote, trains were no alternatives for airline-passangers stranded at Heathrow-Airport due to thick fog. The reason: in the UK, trains do not run on dec. 25th and 26th. Is this true? 

Well it is true that there were no trains on the Christmas Day and no domestic services on the 26th - that meant all the long distance coaches were full on the 26th [called Boxing Day in the UK] so I took my daughter 250km by car - and returned empty. But when the airport was fog bound there were plenty of trains, as this was on the Wednesday-Friday before the Christmas weekend.

However, there was little information available on the alternative train journeys at the airports. It would have been easy for someone attempting to get to Scotland or NE England to have got a train from Heathrow to London, the Tube across town, and then the GNER. There were a number of spaces on the many trains that ran. It looked as though not many people were encouraged to take this option. It was a bit more expensive than the usual air fare, but not beyond most pockets. In the end, there were domestic flights on  Saturday, so all the queues got away before the holiday.

I think that many people who book by air do not look at alternatives, so did not think of using the fast [sometiomes dor to door faster] and available long distance trains. They were not helped to look for these by the airlines either.

Regards

Peter Harris 

[Hugh Jampton]

     How old, in general, is the equipment on British railways?  I know there are lots of new Class 66 locomotives around.  What of the other locomotives and cars?

 

From this site http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2006-11-28c.103600.h the average age of the UK passenger fleet as of 1st October 2006 is 13.5 years. It was 20.7 years in 2000, and 22.7 years in 1995. THere's a breakdown by operator as well if you want to see who has the newest and oldest trainsd in the country.

As for freight the age of rolling stock is similary low due to the purchase of the 66s and a lot of cars to meet new flows. 

[Anonymous]

i know it is going back a bit but the designe of the twin bank Sulzer engins in the Peaks was a very old one. The first Sulzer LDA appered in 1929 and it was just tweaked and streached for nearly 40 years. if GM had difficulties getting a bullet proof V20 in the 1960's imagine trying to get a bullet proof anything in the late 1920's.