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Those train guys

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 2:26 PM

Norm48327

Euclid
So railroads attract inventors because of the potential for reward, but it is one of the most difficult industries to sell a new idea to.  But not only does this thwart the inventors, but it also restricts innovation that could be useful to the industry.  But nevertheless, lots of new ideas from outsiders are adopted by the railroad industry.          

So, in the Nineteenth Century the railroads thought the horses were doing a fine job of pulling the wagons and they didn't need steam locomotives? Whistling

Norm,

I cannot imagine how you would draw that conclusion about anything I have said in what you quoted above or in the larger post that you took the quote from.

 

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Posted by ACY Tom on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 2:14 PM
Back to the OP: He mentioned that some "outsiders" feel the need to do battle with railroaders about the things they know to be true or false. I've been involved in a discussion or two where I gave my opinion and was told by non railroaders that I am completely wrong about the issue. In one case, I was practically called stupid when I gave my view. Then I explained how I knew about the situation, and my long-term experience with it, and my critic fell silent. I know my own field very well, but I don't claim to know all about other areas of the railroad industry. On my particular train, the onboard staff has a total of THOUSANDS of years of experience in onboard service. We have a pretty good idea what will work and what won't. Input from outside is welcome, and we will be glad to give it the consideration it deserves. It's possible that the new idea is something we've never considered because we are too close to the situation to take the longer view. But very often the new idea ignores realities of which we are aware, or it's an idea that has been tried unsuccessfully in the past. What's irritating is when the outsider lets his ego get wrapped up in his great new idea, and he blinds himself to the reality of life on the railroad.
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 1:13 PM

BaltACD

Workable technological improvements allowed those ideas to work - technology is changing daily and it's application can permit a previously failed idea to work.

 
One example might be SOU RR's many tries with radio controlled DPU.  They several times stopped operation and went back to the drawing board?  .  Evidently digital radio equipment finally got the technology going.
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Posted by Norm48327 on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 1:09 PM

Euclid

So railroads attract inventors because of the potential for reward, but it is one of the most difficult industries to sell a new idea to.  But not only does this thwart the inventors, but it also restricts innovation that could be useful to the industry.  But nevertheless, lots of new ideas from outsiders are adopted by the railroad industry.          

So, in the Nineteenth Century the railroads thought the horses were doing a fine job of pulling the wagons and they didn't need steam locomotives? Whistling

Norm


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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 1:03 PM

Methinks that there is also a sense of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" in many industries, not just the railroad industry.  And that's often a grassroots feeling.  The people doing the job are perfectly happy with the current practice.

There is also going to be some pushback on ideas that may threaten ones job.

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Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 11:57 AM

Yes, containerization, for example,  came from the shipping industry.. Malcolm McClean at Sealand. 

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 11:53 AM

Any time a person invents a new idea and presents it, he or she will be met with resounding skepticism.  It is the nature of innovation.  The feeling will be that if the idea were worthwhile, it would have already been invented.  New ideas are also frequently rejected due to the personal resentment of “Not invented here.”  If the target for a new invention is an industry, the bigger, more long-established, stable, and standardized the industry is, the more it will reject new ideas without reviewing the merits. 

The railroad industry is the perfect example of those characteristics.  It also has very deep pockets to pay for new ideas.  And the standardization holds the promise that a new idea, if accepted, will be applied in vast numbers.  The deep pockets and the vast market of the railroad industry attracts inventors.  So the railroads have a tradition of being besieged by inventors trying to get the railroads to buy their inventions. 

So railroads attract inventors because of the potential for reward, but it is one of the most difficult industries to sell a new idea to.  But not only does this thwart the inventors, but it also restricts innovation that could be useful to the industry.  But nevertheless, lots of new ideas from outsiders are adopted by the railroad industry.          

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 11:23 AM

Ulrich

BaltACD

One thing that is overlooked by 'outsiders' about their new ideas - in the highest majority of the cases, that idea, while it may be new to them, has already been tried and found wanting in the past.  

Maybe so, but when they do work the pay-off is huge. What would a couple of high school  drop outs from Dayton, OH know about aviation?  Apparently more than the learned experts of the day. Diddo for the entire computer industry where every year or so a new kid comes along and makes a billion.  

Workable technological improvements allowed those ideas to work - technology is changing daily and it's application can permit a previously failed idea to work.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by ACY Tom on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 10:59 AM
I have no argument with innovation. Sometimes a truly new idea does come along. We have a word for it. It's called progress. But among veteran railroaders, or members of any specialized craft, there is an institutional memory. A 30-year veteran remembers the time, 25 years ago, when a new idea was tried and failed. Then some new guy comes along and proposes that the same idea be tried again. Maybe the new guy has a new wrinkle that makes the previously-impractical idea feasible today. If so, we make progress. If not, we repeat the mistakes of the past. There are no absolutes here. We have brains so that we can make intelligent assessments and proceed sensibly. Or we can use our brains as paperweights.
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Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 10:50 AM

BaltACD

One thing that is overlooked by 'outsiders' about their new ideas - in the highest majority of the cases, that idea, while it may be new to them, has already been tried and found wanting in the past.  

Maybe so, but when they do work the pay-off is huge. What would a couple of high school  drop outs from Dayton, OH know about aviation?  Apparently more than the learned experts of the day. Diddo for the entire computer industry where every year or so a new kid comes along and makes a billion.  

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 10:40 AM

One thing that is overlooked by 'outsiders' about their new ideas - in the highest majority of the cases, that idea, while it may be new to them, has already been tried and found wanting in the past.  There are very few NEW ideas - most are ideas that have been around forever but for a variety of reasons - mostly technological - have not been successful.  In the light of advancing technology most 'old' ideas that didn't work get revisited and investigated to see of new technologies can make those ideas successful.

A operation I had a hand in bring into successful operation, had been tried at least 10 documented times previously - however the technology to make it a success had not been invented and they failed.

Technologies, just because they exist, may not be developed to the point that they can be used with the desired level of reliable success and thus are not adopted in the world of dollars and cents railroading.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by ACY Tom on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 10:19 AM
It's true that an outsider CAN bring new ideas successfully to the railroad milieu, but I've found that it's very rare. We once had a service manager who came from the hotel/restaurant industry, and he was very good. The key to his success was that he would approach veteran railroaders with respect when he proposed something new. He asked questions and paid serious attention to the answers because his goal was a successful operation. His goal was not to boost his own ego and impose his ideas where they might not work. As a result, the employees were happier than they ever were before or since his tenure, and the level of service was at its height. In that way, he earned the respect of veteran railroaders. So it's a two-way street --- or a bidirectional mainline, if you like.
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Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 8:48 AM

edblysard

Crusty?

Well, it has been kinda hot down here lately….

Ya know, I have always wanted to go to an airplane forum, and tell pilots how they should fly, and how to build better airplanes.

My best idea so far is to use more glue to hold the paper clip in place….Big Smile

Sometimes, though, an outsider with a fresh perspective and no preconceived notions about "how its always been done" can really shake things up in a positive way. Look at Paul Tellier, the first head of the privatized CN. A career public servant who became head of CN... no career railroader there, not even a railfan. 

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 8:34 AM

When you work in the field in the rail industry for longer than a cup of coffee you develop your big boy pants and have watched many that can't hack it go off to pursue other options for their lives.  Real world railroading is not for everyone and most wantabe's after they find out the realities can't cut it.

All that being said - bring it on!

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Ulrich on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 7:47 AM

My computer must auto edit all the posts that beat up on the railroad guys. Seriously, where are they? For the most part all I see is some back forth that occasionally gets a little carried away.. nothing that I would deem offensive. 

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Posted by Mookie on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 6:52 AM

One of my biggest thrills - have lunch, dinner, breakfast with a railroad family and collect railroad stories.  And not one of them has ever been gruff! 

She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw

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Posted by Randy Stahl on Wednesday, May 7, 2014 6:42 AM

I was born crusty. My mom taught us how to barfight at a very young age (4). I never approached her talent for bull riding though. Watching her handle a tire iron in a crowded concert was poetry.

 

AS far as lunch.. you're buying.

 

Randy

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Posted by edblysard on Tuesday, May 6, 2014 11:19 PM

Crusty?

Well, it has been kinda hot down here lately….

Ya know, I have always wanted to go to an airplane forum, and tell pilots how they should fly, and how to build better airplanes.

My best idea so far is to use more glue to hold the paper clip in place….Big Smile

23 17 46 11

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Those train guys
Posted by Murphy Siding on Tuesday, May 6, 2014 11:12 PM

     As the spring tag-team season drifts towards the summer tag-team season,  I'd like to offer some of my thoughts about those railroad guys on our forum.

     For me, participating in this forum is an exercise in recreational learning.  I can use my brain to learn things that I really don't need to know, just for fun.  What allows me to learn about one of my favorite subjects-trains- is that , real, experienced railroad employees are willing to share their knowledge and experience with me.

      Some of the railroad guys might be considered gruff.  Maybe they're just no-nonsense  type folks.  I can appreciate that.  Some might think I'm a dumby.  They may be right, and I can appreciate that as well.  I do feel that I need to respect what the railroad guys say, simply because they know their stuff, and I don't know their stuff.  I'm grateful for folks that have taken the time to explain things to me.

      What I can't fathom, is the idea that some folks feel the need to battle with the railroad guys over what they know, and what they see from their perspective.  I can't imagine arguing with a nuclear physicist over nuclear fission.  One of us would look uninformed and silly.  Nor, would I go to a nuclear fission forum, to tell nuclear physicists that they don't know what they're talking about, or that they're not doing their jobs correctly.    I can understand why some of the railroad guys can get uptight.  I'm a salesman.  I imagine that if I belonged to a forum about sales and salesmanship, I'd get pretty uptight with folks who wanted to give me what-for, because they felt they knew my trade better than me.

     I'm willing to cut the railroad guys some slack .  I'm willing to deal with some crusty customers.  I work in the building industry, I deal with personalities of all kinds- just like this forum.  If we allow ourselves to simply joust with the railroad guys, they'll all leave, and we'll have nothing special.  If that puts me on the railroad guys' tag team, I guess that's where I want to be.

     The gist of this forum, in my opinion, is to share a common interest we have  in trains.  What say, we cut a little slack to those train guys that make the forum what it is, and stop playing tag-team?

      All kidding aside,  I bet there isn't a single one of you on this forum, that I wouldn't find interesting to eat lunch with. 

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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