tree68 Convicted OneOne thing I believe you have neglected to include in your assessment, is why do (our) 'railroaders' have such a gift for condescension and abusive typecasting against any they encounter who "fail" to share their opinion? I'd opine that it's because many times the railroader's "opinion" isn't an opinion at all - it's based on real-life experience, and/or established rules and procedures. That's not to say that there aren't better ideas, only that what sounds like a bright new idea to someone may not be all that new - it may have been tried in the past and found wanting. To draw on Euclid's example - if he and his team walked into the CEO's office with their latest creation, and after their presentation the CEO walked over to a file cabinet, pulled out an identical item and said "this one didn't work, either," would they spend time pointing out why their (identical) invention is better?
Convicted OneOne thing I believe you have neglected to include in your assessment, is why do (our) 'railroaders' have such a gift for condescension and abusive typecasting against any they encounter who "fail" to share their opinion?
I'd opine that it's because many times the railroader's "opinion" isn't an opinion at all - it's based on real-life experience, and/or established rules and procedures.
That's not to say that there aren't better ideas, only that what sounds like a bright new idea to someone may not be all that new - it may have been tried in the past and found wanting.
To draw on Euclid's example - if he and his team walked into the CEO's office with their latest creation, and after their presentation the CEO walked over to a file cabinet, pulled out an identical item and said "this one didn't work, either," would they spend time pointing out why their (identical) invention is better?
In the entirety of human history - there are relatively few NEW ideas. Most ideas did not have the supporting technologies in place at the time of the original thought to permit them to be successful. As man proceeds through history solutions are found that permit old, unsuccessful ideas to become practical an successful. If a innovator can demonstrate that he has the solution to a previously failed idea, he has the potential for a gold mine to fall into his lap. In the railroad field, that solution must also be successful with minimal to no maintenance after it's adoption.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68Convicted OneOne thing I believe you have neglected to include in your assessment, is why do (our) 'railroaders' have such a gift for condescension and abusive typecasting against any they encounter who "fail" to share their opinion? I'd opine that it's because many times the railroader's "opinion" isn't an opinion at all - it's based on real-life experience, and/or established rules and procedures. That's not to say that there aren't better ideas, only that what sounds like a bright new idea to someone may not be all that new - it may have been tried in the past and found wanting. To draw on Euclid's example - if he and his team walked into the CEO's office with their latest creation, and after their presentation the CEO walked over to a file cabinet, pulled out an identical item and said "this one didn't work, either," would they spend time pointing out why their (identical) invention is better?
We would go to work explaining that our idea is not identical to the old one that didn’t work.
Actually, one of the most commonly used tools by people in the business to shoot down new ideas is to proclaim that it has been tried in the past and found to not work. That tactic is fairly effective because people in the business always have enough credibility to make that statement because they are in the business.
If we presented our idea not to the CEO, but rather to the whole company inside the box, most of their response would indeed be that they tried the idea before and it did not work. You hear that a lot.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Murphy SidingIf we allow ourselves to simply joust with the railroad guys, they'll all leave, and we'll have nothing special. If that puts me on the railroad guys' tag team, I guess that's where I want to be.
One thing I believe you have neglected to include in your assessment, is why do (our) 'railroaders' have such a gift for condescension and abusive typecasting against any they encounter who "fail" to share their opinion?
"Clueless" bystanders, "stupid" hospital administrators, "idiot" civil authorities, "moron" drivers, "illiterate" journalists, ...I could go on, but you get the idea. When you have people contributing daily whose basic approach towards life in general is "all who disagree with me are lower life forms", then you should expect conflict to be inevitable.
if you ask me, those who expect this place to be a Sunnybrook where all just sit around holding hands and chanting peaceful mantras, are the confused ones.
Murphy SidingGeared Steam Murphy SidingSome might think I'm a dumby. er...."dummy" says spelling cop er.... the OP just trying to be funny says the OP. (Spellcheck did give me "Gumby" as an option.)
Geared Steam Murphy SidingSome might think I'm a dumby. er...."dummy" says spelling cop
Murphy SidingSome might think I'm a dumby.
er...."dummy" says spelling cop
Nothing wrong with thinking "outside the box", as long as you remember "the box" is there for a reason.
Once you realize that, go for it!
Geared SteamMurphy SidingSome might think I'm a dumby. er...."dummy" says spelling cop
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
jeffhergertI think what Murphy is referring to, among other things, is when someone either sees or comes up with an idea that they think will be the greatest thing to railroading since the steel rail. The "cargo sprinter" and other similar concepts comes to mind. They post or link to the idea. Everyday, working railroaders (some from the supervisory/management side) post the short comings or reasons that it would not be practical for current North American practices. Then those who think these better ideas start the postings that railroaders (in effect) are nothing more than stick in the mud/stuck in the rut morons for not embracing whole heartedly these obviously better railroad mouse traps. Eventually the topic either fades away or gets locked and we move on the next reinvention of the wheel. Where history repeats itself. Reminds me of the internet poster images making the rounds of a young man or woman management type holding a book or manual. The caption is, "I don't know how to do your job, but my book says you're doing it wrong." Jeff
Everyday, working railroaders (some from the supervisory/management side) post the short comings or reasons that it would not be practical for current North American practices. Then those who think these better ideas start the postings that railroaders (in effect) are nothing more than stick in the mud/stuck in the rut morons for not embracing whole heartedly these obviously better railroad mouse traps. Eventually the topic either fades away or gets locked and we move on the next reinvention of the wheel. Where history repeats itself.
Reminds me of the internet poster images making the rounds of a young man or woman management type holding a book or manual. The caption is, "I don't know how to do your job, but my book says you're doing it wrong."
Jeff
There is some truth on both sides of that issue. Outsiders like to believe they are thinking “outside the box.” Actually companies hire outsiders just because they know that the “inside the box” culture tends to repress innovation. Although good ideas do come from both inside and outside the box.
I once worked for a large power equipment company in a little satellite operation. We were tasked with coming up with any idea that we though the company could make a product out of. We were funded to build a prototype of anything we thought would meet that need. We were professional dreamers.
The problem was that although we were unimpeded because of being outside the box, we had to present our ideas to the rest of the company inside the box. So it made no difference how great our ideas were, they were sure to be shot down by the inside box culture. Those people were all up to their neck in problems with the existing products, and were not about to welcome a new product, no matter what it offered to the company that paid their wages.
We found that the solution was to build our prototypes to be much more refined than a typical prototype. We built them to look like a finished product, and then we first showed them to the CEO. Then he went back to the box and ordered them to make a product out of our idea.
greyhounds [snipped - PDN] . . . It's impossible to really say who was first in containerization. I mean a barrel (AKA a "Keg") is a container. A whole lot of things were shipped in barrels/kegs. Flour, meat, gunpowder, whiskey, nails, etc. When it comes right down to it, a barrel/keg of anything rolled off a boxcar on to a wagon was an intermodal container shipment. . . .
Also, someone mentioned the 'sectionalized' canal boats that could be separated and loaded onto the skeleton cars on the inclined planes of the Portage Railroad, the predecessor of the PRR in the Altoona - Johnstown - Horseshoe Curve area, in the 1843 time frame.
- Paul North.
jeffhergert [snipped - PDN] . . . Reminds me of the internet poster images making the rounds of a young man or woman management type holding a book or manual. The caption is, "I don't know how to do your job, but my book says you're doing it wrong." Jeff
"Well, that's how I saw it done on YouTube."
(He was just being very funny - he's a young guy, and had spent his share of time on a paving crew with a lute [specialized paving rake], and we'd just had a similar 'learned' discussion about new specifications, techniques, methods, standards, etc. )
It's very much like the ending of the "Serenity Prayer" - you gotta have "the wisdom to know the difference".
Convicted One .....I'd like to supplement my earlier post by saying that I recall learning much of value while listening to "fist pounder" types ranting against their adversaries. Shame that many of them are no longer here, (won't mention names) I think many of them (unfortunately) left back when this forum decided to "clean up it's act" and come down on the chronic head butters. Granted, some of them were a little coarse, but were a wealth of information. And I miss them.
Granted, some of them were a little coarse, but were a wealth of information. And I miss them.
Yes it certainly was a free ranging discussion forum back in those days. Michael Sole was legendary in his ability to frame an issue.
jeffhergert I think what Murphy is referring to, among other things, is when someone either sees or comes up with an idea that they think will be the greatest thing to railroading since the steel rail. The "cargo sprinter" and other similar concepts comes to mind. They post or link to the idea. Everyday, working railroaders (some from the supervisory/management side) post the short comings or reasons that it would not be practical for current North American practices. Then those who think these better ideas start the postings that railroaders (in effect) are nothing more than stick in the mud/stuck in the rut morons for not embracing whole heartedly these obviously better railroad mouse traps. Eventually the topic either fades away or gets locked and we move on the next reinvention of the wheel.
I think what Murphy is referring to, among other things, is when someone either sees or comes up with an idea that they think will be the greatest thing to railroading since the steel rail. The "cargo sprinter" and other similar concepts comes to mind. They post or link to the idea.
Everyday, working railroaders (some from the supervisory/management side) post the short comings or reasons that it would not be practical for current North American practices. Then those who think these better ideas start the postings that railroaders (in effect) are nothing more than stick in the mud/stuck in the rut morons for not embracing whole heartedly these obviously better railroad mouse traps. Eventually the topic either fades away or gets locked and we move on the next reinvention of the wheel.
With that said (well said, IMO) .....I'd like to supplement my earlier post by saying that I recall learning much of value while listening to "fist pounder" types ranting against their adversaries. Shame that many of them are no longer here, (won't mention names) I think many of them (unfortunately) left back when this forum decided to "clean up it's act" and come down on the chronic head butters.
BaltACD While PRR & NYC may have been doing containers domestically. McLean and SeaLand brought it to international ocean going commerce as the shipping model at the time was hand loaded break bulk shipping for other than bulk commodities.
While PRR & NYC may have been doing containers domestically. McLean and SeaLand brought it to international ocean going commerce as the shipping model at the time was hand loaded break bulk shipping for other than bulk commodities.
Yes, but...
The 1920s domestic container innovation had spread well beyond the PRR and NYC by the time the ignorant fool government types put an end to the progress.
It's impossible to really say who was first in containerization. I mean a barrel (AKA a "Keg") is a container. A whole lot of things were shipped in barrels/kegs. Flour, meat, gunpowder, whiskey, nails, etc. When it comes right down to it, a barrel/keg of anything rolled off a boxcar on to a wagon was an intermodal container shipment.
I don't see McLean as being so much the initiator of containerization as I see him being the first person in the US who was allowed by the freaking government to implement it. The NYC certainly had 1920s visions of containers from China moving to the US east coast by ship/rail/truck combined transport.
There is also the existence of the Clifford J. Rogers of the White Pass and Yukon. The Rogers preceded McLean's "Ideal X" as a container ship and contends for the title of the world's first container ship. IMHO the Clifford J. Rogers beat McLean to the punch.
I'll always know that the inane decision of the ICC that killed domestic rail container intermodal service for 50 years caused the American people to pay a terrible price for inefficient transportation. We are still paying that price. No government agency should ever have the power to stop innovation and economic efficiency as they did in 1931. Think of it. In the beginning of a true economic emergency the government fools ordered corporations to increase their prices. It's hard to imagine anyone being that dumb. But the government types were that dumb.
No government should ever have that power ever again.
.Duplicate
Jeff,
I concur. Well said. Many also seem to assume that fixed plant is free and/or capacity is unlimited.
Mac
Murphy Siding Some of the railroad guys might be considered gruff. Maybe they're just no-nonsense type folks. I can appreciate that. Some might think I'm a dumby. They may be right, and I can appreciate that as well. I do feel that I need to respect what the railroad guys say, simply because they know their stuff, and I don't know their stuff. I'm grateful for folks that have taken the time to explain things to me. What I can't fathom, is the idea that some folks feel the need to battle with the railroad guys over what they know, and what they see from their perspective. I can't imagine arguing with a nuclear physicist over nuclear fission. One of us would look uninformed and silly
Murph,
I made sure to take some time to think about my response on this, before posting.
I really can't recall arguing railroad issues with the greybeards here, most of them seem to have a mastery of their field. Most of the friction I recall having with some generally pertains to ancillary issues and/or personal preferences in matters of opinion.
And, imo, anytime you have a group of intelligent people gathered together, you are going to have personal differences. Some people are better at tolerating differences between their personal preferences and those of others. I have yet to see any evidence that railroaders are an exception.
You read subjects here from time to time that are just seething with contempt for...NIMBYS....college graduates,..... Lawyers....Juries....legal precedent...... and it often appears abundantly clear that those opinions are fueled by considerably more than experience gained while working on the railroad.
Hopefully you are not trying to imply that (example) one must subordinate to a railroader's priorities on environmental issues simply because he might run his train through environmentally sensitive areas?
'
If there is anything I am not it is a "train guy." I ride trains; I've never worked for a railroad/ But there are an increasing number of people like me, people who ride trains. After all you don't need to work for a railroad to appreciate the importance of railroads to us. Consider, for example, Asa Whitney; he never worked for a railroad but he sure understood their importance. There ae some guys here like me, people who ride trains but don't work for them. Most of all I want this to be a place where everyone with an interest in trains feels welcome. After all, in the long run we are all human beings and I think it is important that we treat each other like human beings.
carnej1 There's a well known aviation forum I like to "lurk" on (in other words I've never joined the forum and thus don't post on it) that has many members who work in the commercial airline industry, including many pilots. I can assure you that the same type of activity with some(a small minority I surmise) of the "planespotters"(i.e "The Railfans of the Airways") essentially trying to lecture to the folks that do it for a living.
There's a well known aviation forum I like to "lurk" on (in other words I've never joined the forum and thus don't post on it) that has many members who work in the commercial airline industry, including many pilots.
I can assure you that the same type of activity with some(a small minority I surmise) of the "planespotters"(i.e "The Railfans of the Airways") essentially trying to lecture to the folks that do it for a living.
Sounds like PPRuNE
Norm
carnej1 edblysard Crusty? Well, it has been kinda hot down here lately…. Ya know, I have always wanted to go to an airplane forum, and tell pilots how they should fly, and how to build better airplanes. My best idea so far is to use more glue to hold the paper clip in place…. There's a well known aviation forum I like to "lurk" on (in other words I've never joined the forum and thus don't post on it) that has many members who work in the commercial airline industry, including many pilots. I can assure you that the same type of activity with some(a small minority I surmise) of the "planespotters"(i.e "The Railfans of the Airways") essentially trying to lecture to the folks that do it for a living. An example of this was a discussion of the economic an operational practicalities of U.S Air Carriers use of predominately narrow body airliners (like the Boeing 737 series) on domestic routes in recent times. One "buff" kept bringing up the fact that in Japan and some other Asian markets airlines use jumbo jets for high density short haul operations and thus Southwest Airlines should be operating Airbus A380 Superjumbos on U.S routes.... The most rabid examples of the "My hobby makes me an expert" mentality I've seen were on forums devoted to the Fire Service. However, all of these sub-types of fan-dom are not the majority and most people on the various forums seem to genuinely want to hear and learn from the professionals.
edblysard Crusty? Well, it has been kinda hot down here lately…. Ya know, I have always wanted to go to an airplane forum, and tell pilots how they should fly, and how to build better airplanes. My best idea so far is to use more glue to hold the paper clip in place….
Crusty?
Well, it has been kinda hot down here lately….
Ya know, I have always wanted to go to an airplane forum, and tell pilots how they should fly, and how to build better airplanes.
My best idea so far is to use more glue to hold the paper clip in place….
An example of this was a discussion of the economic an operational practicalities of U.S Air Carriers use of predominately narrow body airliners (like the Boeing 737 series) on domestic routes in recent times. One "buff" kept bringing up the fact that in Japan and some other Asian markets airlines use jumbo jets for high density short haul operations and thus Southwest Airlines should be operating Airbus A380 Superjumbos on U.S routes....
The most rabid examples of the "My hobby makes me an expert" mentality I've seen were on forums devoted to the Fire Service.
However, all of these sub-types of fan-dom are not the majority and most people on the various forums seem to genuinely want to hear and learn from the professionals.
Oh yeah, an Airbus make perfect sense for a flight /hop from Houston to Dallas…you’d burn more fuel getting off the ground than the rest of the entire flight would take!
Norris, crusty is fun, best when it is cheese stuffed!
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carnej1 The most rabid examples of the "My hobby makes me an expert" mentality I've seen were on forums devoted to the Fire Service.
Indeed, although in many cases, it's not the fire buffs (the railfans of the firefighting world) who are ripping the experts - it's firefighters ripping on firefighters. Rather like two train crew members going at each other. Many times its a case of the vast difference between the urban/career-staffed world and the rural/volunteer environment.
In the railroad world that would be along the lines of a Class 1 engineer taking exception to statements by a shortline engineer, without taking into consideration the operational differences between the two.
One site has a name for the folks who like to second guess what they see in the many videos of fires that are available on the web - "keyboard incident commanders," or "KIC's." Folks who draw broad conclusions about how a fire was handled based on the narrow view afforded by someone's cell phone video.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
A case can be made that railroads did not invent containerization, as the first intermodal containers were developed for coal moving in horse drawn wagons and canal boats in 1795.
Containerization has its origins in early coal mining regions in England beginning in the late 18th century. In 1795, Benjamin Outram opened the Little Eaton Gangway, upon which coal was carried in wagons built at his Butterley Ironwork. The horse-drawn wheeled wagons on the gangway took the form of containers, which, loaded with coal, could be transshipped from canalbarges on the Derby Canal, which Outram had also promoted.[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containerization#References
Containerization has its origins in early coal mining regions in England beginning in the late 18th century. In 1795, Benjamin Outram opened the Little Eaton Gangway, upon which coal was carried in wagons built at his Butterley Ironwork. The horse-drawn wheeled wagons on the gangway took the form of containers, which, loaded with coal, could be transshipped from canalbarges on the Derby Canal, which Outram had also promoted.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Containerization#References
Balt,
True, but the claim first made was that McLean invented containerization. That is simply not so, the railroads did. Considering that this thread turned into one about innovation in the rail industry, it seems only appropriate to call out misstatements of fact.
Ulrich Yes, containerization, for example, came from the shipping industry.. Malcolm McClean at Sealand.
Yes, containerization, for example, came from the shipping industry.. Malcolm McClean at Sealand.
Not quite. Either/both PRR and NYC were doing it in the 1930's, until the ICC killed it. Greyhounds has told the story two or three times.
Please don't get real hung up on my use of adjectives. Even if I had a Roget's thesaurus in my pocket, I'd still need the brainpower to operate it, and sometimes those batteries dim out on me. It's the main idea that I'm more concerned with. Come to think of it. crusty sounds like a description of something on SpongeBob SquarePants. -signed the crusty lumber salesman
Note to Ulrich:
Not trying to pick a fight, but only to se the record straight. From one retired trucker to another,still in it. RE; Malcom Purcell McLean A real pioneer in not only the trucking business but Innovation as well.
I'd offer a couple of linked sites: #1 @ http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/5026.html
"The Truck Driver Who Reinvented Shipping"
and this one: #2 @ http://www.container-transportation.com/malcolm-mclean.html
" Malcolm McLean - the man changed the world "
And a brief look at his Bio [ From Wikipedia website:
@ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_McLean
"...With only a high school education, McLean pumped gas at a service station near his hometown and saved enough money by 1934 to buy a second-hand truck for $120. He and his sister, Clara McLean , and brother, Jim McLean, founded McLean Trucking Co . Based out of Red Springs, North Carolina , McLean Trucking started out hauling empty tobacco barrels – with Malcom as one of the drivers.[2]
From that beginning, with his single pickup truck, he built it into the second-largest trucking company in the U.S., with 1770 trucks and 32 terminals. On January 6, 1958 (after McLean had sold his interest in the company), McLean Trucking became the first trucking company in the nation to be listed on the New York Stock Exchange. Carrying trucks, or carriages, was not new - it had been done on the Dover-Calais trade.."
tree68 There is also going to be some pushback on ideas that may threaten ones job.
There is also going to be some pushback on ideas that may threaten ones job.
Ha ha.. reminds me of Archie Bunker, when Irene Lorenzo suggested they use ramps to drive the forklift directly into the truck, thereby getting rid of the loaders job. Archie said yeah... "great idea except for one small detail.. that one step you eliminate... that's my job!"
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