By the way, to add to this, the person who was given the “preferred” treatment was not a railroader.
One of the mods, (not Murphy) emailed me and asked me to cease and desist because the person who was trolling was bugging the powers that be to the point of anger and irrational action, said action was not specified but inferred the banning of a few railroaders who would not just let it be, myself included.
That particular mod quit the next day out of frustration.
Now I like a debate as much as the next guy, as long as it remains a debate.
A point or position is offered, rebuttals and counter points are raised, it is discussed and so forth, so on….but when the rebuttals or challenges include snide, rude and condescending or patronizing comments, be they from the railfan or the railroader, it ceases to be debate and becomes argument.
There are a few posters here who do the word game, and imply something, playing the semantic word shuffle, and when they get called out on it, they suddenly claim to have not “said that” which is true, they crouched their comment in such a manner it can be denied, but read in context it is obvious what they intended to say.
Michael Sol was a master of this…the “I was in the office when the President of the Milwaukie Road said” implying he was in the same office as the president at the same time.
I could make a similar statement, “I was in the Office when the President of the United States decided to …”…yup, I have an office, and I was in it when POTUS decided something, but it certainly was not the Oval Office, the “office I was in” is located at the back of my house, but reading the statement as written it implies I was there at his side when the decision was made.
When you called Mike out on this ploy, he would explode, with wild crude nasty insults, and when he was called out on that, he suddenly becomes the “victim” of an attack, and recruited allies to his cause by flattering them, and a few folks fell for it.
We have a few guys like that here now.
I am not sure but some of them just like watching arguments happen, or are they “Spoons” who enjoy stirring the pot for their personal amusement, because they don’t often participate in the railroad discussions, but jump in with both feet in any argument currently running and fan the flames as hard as they can.
The trolls that start threads to cause problems I can handle, they are to be expected on any forum, but the spoons just aggravate the heck out of me, and most of the other railroaders, and we will go toe to toe with them, mostly because we work with a spoon or two on our carrier, and recognize the personality…it is just as annoying here as there.
23 17 46 11
Yes, I was just referring to what Norm explained. No need for any theory.
Murphy Siding Stop and think about this for a second. I don't know that there's any kind of *realization* here. What you have is one disgruntled(?) poster who made an allegation that you refer to. Sinister conspiracy, or sour grapes? I guess you'd just have to take in all the... evidence(?) and weigh the probabilities on their own.
it really isn't a new realization (more of a confirmation) and it has nothing to do with Bucky Euclid's post. Actually norm's. I will simply continue as a member knowing full well that the General Forum was and probably always will be rigged,with a certain group having insider information about its moderation. One thing I hope we could end on here are the little one-liner snipes by some members who think they are witty. And the other is to remain vigilant of trollers of the type many of us, railroaders and non, united against recently.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Murphy Siding And they would have away with it, if it hadn't been for those darn, meddling kids.
And the beat goes on.
Norm
Schlimm and Bucky appear to be stirring up the "drama pot" again......
Murphy Siding,
So, Norm says moderators were told by the forum leader to give preferential treatment, and you say that is a conspiracy theory. Then you turn around and say you quit being a moderator because the forum leader told you to give preferential treatment.
Euclid That is certainly interesting to hear that there are phantom guidelines besides the published forum rules. I guess that explains the locking of those threads where a bunch of railroaders got upset that people thought they should wave back if waved to.
That is certainly interesting to hear that there are phantom guidelines besides the published forum rules. I guess that explains the locking of those threads where a bunch of railroaders got upset that people thought they should wave back if waved to.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
schlimm The realization that the General Forum was being run with two unpublished sets of guidelines for moderators, designed with favoritism towards some surely makes it difficult to take it seriously in the future. The realization that some of the professionals had inside knowledge of this confirms my suspicions of the past.. Thank heavens there are still the Transit and Passenger Forums, which have been historically immune from those factors..
The realization that the General Forum was being run with two unpublished sets of guidelines for moderators, designed with favoritism towards some surely makes it difficult to take it seriously in the future. The realization that some of the professionals had inside knowledge of this confirms my suspicions of the past.. Thank heavens there are still the Transit and Passenger Forums, which have been historically immune from those factors..
EuclidThen others smell that feeling of insult, band together, and multiply the sense of outrage about the imagined insult. Then this can cause the aggrieved group to mob the thread with snarky off topic comments just to try to provoke the person who will not agree with them. This, of course, is classic trolling and violates the forum rule against off topic comments, and also the one against personal attacks if the comment goes that far, which they often do. Obviously, the objective is to provoke the one who fails to agree into lashing out and raising the temperature in the hope of spooking the moderators into locking the thread. The funniest part is that the little mob of trolls engaging in this tactic never believes that they are trolling. To them, the troll is the person whom they imagine to have insulted them by not accepting their opinion.
This, of course, is classic trolling and violates the forum rule against off topic comments, and also the one against personal attacks if the comment goes that far, which they often do. Obviously, the objective is to provoke the one who fails to agree into lashing out and raising the temperature in the hope of spooking the moderators into locking the thread.
The funniest part is that the little mob of trolls engaging in this tactic never believes that they are trolling. To them, the troll is the person whom they imagine to have insulted them by not accepting their opinion.
Bucky, your post seems uncharacteristically emotional of you.
Convicted One Murphy Siding What part of* speak for yourself* don't you get? Murphy, I am really glad that you started this thread, Taking your current concerns into a comprehensive contemplation of things we've "experienced" in the past suddenly shines a new light on certain aspects of forum politics. I can recall back when you were a moderator, and a certain railroader would make snide comments to me, and if I dared return the favor to him, you would frequently take the initiative to delete my retaliation from the board, while leaving his original provocations intact. It appeared at the time that you were using your semi official status to show favoritism and protect one of your personal friends. (Which you generally denied) . Now with more of your personal feelings on the table, it appears far more likely that your prior actions were based upon fear that the "railroaders' would pick up their toys and leave if forced to endure the same sort of treatment they dealt out. It finally makes sense. Thank you.
Murphy Siding What part of* speak for yourself* don't you get?
Murphy,
I am really glad that you started this thread, Taking your current concerns into a comprehensive contemplation of things we've "experienced" in the past suddenly shines a new light on certain aspects of forum politics.
I can recall back when you were a moderator, and a certain railroader would make snide comments to me, and if I dared return the favor to him, you would frequently take the initiative to delete my retaliation from the board, while leaving his original provocations intact.
It appeared at the time that you were using your semi official status to show favoritism and protect one of your personal friends. (Which you generally denied) .
Now with more of your personal feelings on the table, it appears far more likely that your prior actions were based upon fear that the "railroaders' would pick up their toys and leave if forced to endure the same sort of treatment they dealt out.
It finally makes sense. Thank you.
Convicted one,
Re; the paragraph I highlited.
If I may speak in Murphy's defense, I was aware of what was happening when those posts were being frequently deleted. Moderators were being ordered by the IT man in charge of the forums to delete them. Seems there were some people crying to him, and he just got plain tired of hearing it and put out that order. I'm not a liberty to say much more, but a few moderators quit over it. The guilty parties know of whom I speak. That's why we are now down to Steve and Angela as moderators.
The forum has a rule against personally attacking people and a rule against posting off topic comments. But anyone can feel personally attacked even if no personal attack is made. That is their own perception. People can feel insulted when no insult was intended. The rules can't do anything about that.
So when people “feel” insulted just because someone differs with their opinion, I suggest they look at their own self as the possible source of the problem. I have known people that take offense very easily when no offense was intended. Cultivating a susceptibility to being offending can be a means of empowerment.
I have noticed that on the forum, people supposedly “in the know” can seem to feel insulted when somebody simply disagrees with them.
Then others smell that feeling of insult, band together, and multiply the sense of outrage about the imagined insult. Then this can cause the aggrieved group to mob the thread with snarky off topic comments just to try to provoke the person who will not agree with them.
If you ever thought of me as being mature, you missed the boat!
Murphy Siding Ya got me man. It's all a big conspiracy, and I'm the grand pooh-bah behind the curtain. My cover is blown. I was so busy setting up my plan for world domination (and a shot as the villain in the next Batman movie ) that I plum lost track of who I was dealing with. Where do I send your trophy?
It really IS a wonder that a person of such maturity once was moderator of this board.
schlimmI think if we can all be civil to each other (in both directions) it would help. That means non-railroaders not saying the railroaders are ignorant, etc. And railroaders should hold back on the insulting terms they seem to feel they have license to use concerning non-railroaders, such as NIMBYs, Darwin material, foamers, lawyers, educators, etc.
+1
dehusmanLooking at it from the other side of the glass. I have over the years past read some very insulting and disparaging things written about professional railroaders. I have read some nasty comments made about situations with which I was directly involved and since I was directly involved I knew the assumptions made by the non-railroad people were uninformed. Since the non-railroaders didn't seem to have much concern for the railroader's feelings, I have over the years been less concerned about their feelings. I actually was so PO'd by the venom that I didn't even read, let alone participate on the Trains Forum for three or four years.
You make a valid point (as usual, I must add). Please don't overlook the comment I made earlier about being a big proponent of free speech, and take that in context with the final reply I am about to make to Murphy Siding
Euclid ......Speaking on behalf of Murphy Siding.......
......Speaking on behalf of Murphy Siding.......
tree68 EuclidThat was my point when I asked you how can there be honest discussion if one particular class of participants are considered to be correct whether they are or not, just because they are members of a class. Sheesh. The opinions of the actual railroaders should generally be considered to have come from experience. Usually, when one of this "class" points out the fallacy of an idea, they offer examples of why the idea won't work - based on their real world experience. That should carry some weight.
EuclidThat was my point when I asked you how can there be honest discussion if one particular class of participants are considered to be correct whether they are or not, just because they are members of a class.
Sheesh.
The opinions of the actual railroaders should generally be considered to have come from experience. Usually, when one of this "class" points out the fallacy of an idea, they offer examples of why the idea won't work - based on their real world experience.
That should carry some weight.
As I said earlier, whether or not something carries weight is something I judge simply on how it is presented and according to my understanding of the subject. I do not assume that a comment carries weight simply because it is the opinion of someone with experience. If I thought that way, I would believe everything that plumbers tell me.
Speaking on behalf of Murphy Siding, he has a different way of looking at it, and of course he is free to look at it that way. He assumes that the “weight” that you refer to being carried by an opinion of a railroader should overrule a contradicting opinion of a non-railroader, simply based on that class distinction.
I hear comments here from both classes, some of which I agree with and some of which I don’t.
Edblysard: What you say makes a good deal of sense (to me at least). What "Convicted One" said also rings true. Seems to me we should all, railroaders and non-railroaders alike, heed both expressions of the core problem.
Lots of folks reading stuff into Murphy’s post that is not there, and playing the “so what you REALLY meant was…” game.
If you can’t comprehend what he wrote, that’s sad, it plain American English and pretty easy to grasp his concept and intent.
Not real sure what makes anyone think the railroader has any input into what equipment a carrier will purchase or how the operating depart and mechanical departments decide to implement it, we pretty much have to work with what they give us, but I can pretty much bet if a railroad rejects anyones “invention” it’s because they either tried something like it before and it failed, or the idea/design change or invention isn’t cost effective or can’t survive the abusive railroad environment.
Railroaders like change if it makes our job easier, faster and makes us money…but anything that wastes our time, is harder to use or requires more steps usually gets “lost” a lot of times.
Take couplers….on freight cars, it has to be able to withstand tremendous abuse, be easy to operate, cheap to build and cheap to maintain.
Look up couplers in your search engine, there are lots of patent applications over the years, but we still use the same basic coupler from 100 years ago…not because we “don’t like change” or are “sticks in the mud”, but because it works, can take all the abuse we give it, can for the most part be repaired in the field with minimum tools and is really easy to operate, you lift a handle and you’re done!
The air connection was mentioned…why would you want to change something that works so well, is so easy to repair and is pretty much bullet proof?
About the only thing that wears out on glad hands is the gasket, and most railroaders carry a few of them on their key chain, takes about 5 seconds to replace one and no tools are required, although a pocket knife makes it easier.
If by chance the hose itself tears or breaks, I can have my engineer toss off the spare hose and wrench and drag me up to them, shove back and replace the entire air hose with one fits all wrench and be moving again really quick, I don’t have to wait for a technician, or a repair person, and I don’t need a mechanical degree to see how it works.
As for the insults and “Darwin Award” phrase, I rarely see it used by the railroaders here, and it is not a common phrase used by us, at least not on my carrier, and the few instances when I do hear it, the phrase is not applied to people like the kid in the video, but to the folks who, for whatever reason, decide their Chevy can beat the train at the crossing, or survive the impact if they tie with us.
I have seen the phrase used here on this forum many times more that out in the world, and most of the time, the phrase is used by the railfans or some of the trolls, along with “moron” and “Idiot” and such.
As for kowtowing or bowing down to the railroader’s phenomenal knowledge…ha ha ha ha ah….
Not a an ice cubes chance in hades do I want anyone to take what I write here as gospel, and I doubt any of the other railroaders here do either.
But, when guys like mudchicken tell you that “you have to build this in this manner” for it to work, if you knew his creds and where he came from, you might want to pay attention to what he writes…in face to face conversation, you have to bring your “Engineering geek to English” translation book just to grasp the basics.
If Jeff or RRKen tell you, “you really can’t do that” its because they have been on the seat box long enough to know there are three ways to do things, the “right” way, the “wrong” way, and the railroaders way.
There was a complaint a few years ago that railroaders belong to a club of sorts, and we don’t like or let non railroaders in…yup, there is a club, and yes, we belong to it.
No, we don’t exclude non railroaders, but we don’t let just anybody in either.
Sorry, thems the breaks so to speak.
But if you come to our club and ask for information, and we give you the information you requested, a simple thank you is all we really ask.
What you do with and how you decide to interpret the information given is your choice.
I am going to sound arrogant here, but yes, I probably know more about flat yard switching that anyone here….Carl is a real freight car guru, if you saw his notebooks and knew where he worked, he is the “car guy”, mudchicken knows more about track design, bridge construction and MOW that the rest,, Jeff, Ken, Zugman all have Federal Certified Locomotive Engineers licenses in their pockets,(do you?) so they know more about how to handle a train than I do, and more about it than you do, so if you want to listen to what they say and use that to further your knowledge and understanding of railroads and how/what we do, great!
That’s what you came here for, isn’t it?
If on the other hand you want to argue something, especially with people who do what you are discussing for a living, then that’s great too, because most of the railroaders I know have no problem getting toe to toe with someone from outside the club telling them how to do their job.
If you find that uppity and arrogant, sorry, but that’s pretty much the way it is.
Go to other train related forums, and see how many of the railroaders there, (if there are any) answer question as freely as they do here…and trust me, the guys here are nowhere near as stuck on themselves as they are on the other forums.
Sometimes, others in the railroad business point out a different view, based on their experience. Both are telling it as they see it, within the context of their experience. Such views may support or shoot down the original idea.
And that context is important. I can speak with a certain amount of authority regarding tourist operations and related vintage equipment. However, my knowledge of many specialized areas (say, intermodal operations) may be just as limited as that of John Q. Railfan.
Which is to say, you can 'call' me on comments I might make on (f'rinstance) intermodal, but if you want to talk about running tourist trains with vintage equipment in the mountains, you might want to pay attention to what I have to say.
And so it is with pretty much all of our "class" of experienced railroaders.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
RRKEN said:
"Considering the history of a few here, like Bucky, it is no wonder a lot of folks no longer are active here, and at other venues."
That pretty well sums up the problem. Some folks simply don't know how to take no for an answer and beat the subject to death by constantly rewording their questions and over-analyzing everything. I'm not saying that everything said by the true railroaders should be taken as gospel, but at least some respect should be shown to those who have experience in their field. The latter seems to be missing in many replies. Twisting and turning your own words to get the response you desire gets old in a big hurry.
ACYI don't think anybody is saying anything like that. A railroader with experience deserves to be listened to, when his experience is relevant. An innovator deserves to have his ideas listened to. Neither one deserves to be dismissed out-of-hand.
don't think anybody is saying anything like that. A railroader with experience deserves to be listened to, when his experience is relevant. An innovator deserves to have his ideas listened to. Neither one deserves to be dismissed out-of-hand.
True but if those who have actual experience and know that something others do not should have their comments considered .
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
We seem to be focused on the type of discussion where someone suggests a new idea and then people shoot it down. I have posted a few ideas, and I expect them to get shot down. People always shoot down new ideas.
So I am only interested in hearing why people think they are nonstarters. But I will defend the idea if I think the arguments against it are fallacious. I want to take it further and see where the opposition is coming from. That can be a discussion with disagreement, but it need not be insulting.
Speaking of new ideas, I once had the great idea to invent an automatic railway air coupling. I had heard David P. Morgan often scoff that the so-called automatic coupler was not really automatic because the air needed to be manually coupled. I thought there would be a heck of a lot of merit in having the air make along with the knuckles. I put a ton of thought into it. I even built a prototype to show how it worked.
Euclid Murphy SidingYou type your words, I'll type mine, and we won't have to interpret them for others-deal? If you read what I said, you will see that I only interpreted your words for myself. Did I misinterpret you? You said, "It wouldn't hurt to show some deference to their knowledge and experience- whether you believe them or not."
Murphy SidingYou type your words, I'll type mine, and we won't have to interpret them for others-deal?
If you read what I said, you will see that I only interpreted your words for myself. Did I misinterpret you?
You said, "It wouldn't hurt to show some deference to their knowledge and experience- whether you believe them or not."
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
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