My question: Under CN management, the Newfoundland Railway regularly tranferred CN box cars and possibly other types of cars from standard gauge trucks to narrow for operation on the Island, at Port Au Basques (pardon spelling). And back. This operation probably did exist before CN took over the operation , but my history on that is weak.
There was one other type of equpment, not owned by CN, that had similar use on the Island. What reporting marks (owner) and what type of car?
One of your answers is close. It was the reverse of the reason CP bought 3 US-built E8s (and a bunch of Alco RS3s) for use in Vermont and Maine. Soo and CP had a long-standing deal where the CP leased the Soo's engines on the Winnipeger for each trip but apparently it didn't apply to diesels. It took some time for the lawyers to work out the new deal. One of the FP7s and both of the F7Bs were built as EMD demonstrators for the Canadian market.
There were similar arrangements in effect between the Rutland and CN for the Rouses Point NY to Montreal runs of the Green Mountain Flyer and the Mount Royal. Through passenger service to Montreal didn't last long enough for the RS3s to get involved.
Possibly they did not meet Canadian requirements regarding safety or tax issues. Possibly there were not enough F7AandB combinations to cover all assignments with protection power, and the turn-around time in Winnipeg was not sufficnet turn them on an in and out basis, while the available steam power (4-6-2's?) (CP as well as SOO possible?) was more that sufficient.
The Soo Line assigned its first passenger diesels, FP7s and F7Bs, to the Winnipeger between the Twin Cities and Winnipeg. For a while after their delivery, they came off westbound at Thief River Falls for steam locomotives which ran through to Winnipeg over the CP, even though the schedule allowed enough time to turn the diesels at Winnipeg and CP had adequate diesel facilities. Why was this done?
The bus operated by CMC and then by CTA to Grant Park came down from the north. I don't remember the exact route, and it was definitely not a double-decker in 1952, but you could board it at Union Station, at least just before and after Grant Park concerts on the evenings the concerts took place. Anyway RC, we await your question.
I did not ride the streetcar shuttle to go to and from the concerts, just did it as part of railfanning on a weekend. I was living in LaGrange that summer, and used the Q suburban service to and from the concerts, with he bus connection in Chicago, with the LaGrange Stone Avenue station nearest to my rented room. Much much later, I got to redesign the sound system and the orchestral shell. Or course even that was some 32 years ago, and it has probably been changed since.
It must have been interesting riding one of the open double deckers under one of the low railroad viaducts common to Chicago, or even under the L. At least they didn't go under those on streets with trolley wire...
Chicago Motor Coach came into existence through a legal loophole. At the time, Chicago boulevards and parkways were under the jurisdiction of the various park districts inside the city and it was determined that a franchise from the City Of Chicago was not needed to operate on the boulevards, allowing Chicago Motor Coach to operate without a franchise although it still needed an operating certificate from the Illinois Commerce Commission.
Your mention of the Chicago Motor Coach lines brought back some boyhood memories of the pre-WW2 times when I rode their double decker busses on Michigan Ave with my Aunt. Weather permitting I'd always ride on the open upper deck which to my way of thinking was quite a novelty.
Mark
From what I can find, the CTA bus service after 1952 was pretty much the old CMC service into Grant Park. CTA already had lots of bus lines by 1951, so buses by themselves weren't the problem. Prior to CTA takeover, CMC served only areas that were controlled by the Park Department, which in practice meant Boulevards and a handful of streets, most notably Michigan Ave. The jog in the Ashland line onto Paulina at Roosevelt was there because Ashland was designated a boulevard north from there to I think Division - I'd have to check to be sure. There was still no bridge across the IC suitable for buses until 1954 or 1955 - the CMC buses either came down from Wacker (~400 North) on the original section of Lake Shore Drive or used the 23d st. bridge which was quite a ways south of Roosevelt (12th). The CMC takeover was at least a year before the first of the two streetcar loops closed, and about two years before the Cermak loop closed. The Cermak loop involved what amounted to a light L structure across the IC, like the Roosevelt line.
I was born a few blocks south of there a few years after all these events took place, so I can't claim any of this is verified by personal observation.
Rob
Did not Chicago Motor Coach have a bus to Grant Park in competition with the CSL streetcars, and was not the start of CTA bus service really the merger of CMC into CTA (or rather the purchase by CTA of CMC)?
And obviously the rail bridge could not easily be rebuilt for buses, too narrow for one thing.
Before Lake Shore Drive was constructed (more or less throught the site of the Grant Park loop) there was no road bridge across the IC on the east end of Roosevelt Rd., so bus operation was impossible. (The shuttle ran from a crossover between Michigan and Wabash that was the original end of Rt. 12.) The Cermak Rd loop, which curved up to 18th St. lasted a little longer than the Roosevelt loop (May 1954?) and was a reasonable alternative before Grant Park bus service started under CTA. I don't recall where the Roosevelt TTs looped, but I suspect it was via Michigan, E 13th and Indiana.
Thanks. The quesiton concerning the Roosevelt Ave - 12trh Street CSL line finally jogged old memories of mine, because i DID RIDE that shuttle extension in the summer of 1952 when the rest of line was already TT or bus, possibly still bus with the TT wire in the air before the inauguration of trackless trolley service. Of course the train shed had been replaced by plaform canopies, but the long birdge over the IC tracks still existed. I don't remember whether the shuttle started at Michigan Avenue or a Wabash or at State Street, but I think it was the latter. I remember it being run with two arch roof double end cars, probably one-man safety cars. I know you know the answer to the following two questions:
Why was the shuttle continiued in operation and why could not an exact bus replacement be provided?
(Except at huge expense, not justified by the patronage)
What made the continued operatoin of the shuttle unnecessary and what alternative did the passengers have?
That's enough detail to get the next question. Actually it was a trick question, since the track connection (a simple crossover) at LaPorte IN between the Gary Rys Goshen South Bend and Chicago (which never got to any of those places) and the Chicago South Bend and Northern Indiana didn't have overhead wire and may have only been used for one round trip movement. East of Cleveland connections could be made to Erie, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Utica and Herkimer or Cooperstown NY. The line between Syracuse and Utica (New Yok State Railways) used NYC-style underrunning third rail on the West Shore so it might not quite qualify. Ride the NYC from Herkimer to Fonda NY and you could keep going to Portsmouth NH and a short ferry ride to Kittery ME, from which you could get up to Waterville ME. Detour through western Massachusetts and you could get to City Hall in New York (or take the ferry to New Jersey andjust keep going...)
The CSB&NI bought a bunch of Cleveland Rys cars after a South Bend carbarn fire in 1923, all of which were delivered on their own wheels using (part of) the route via Winona you described.
I would like to make a guess that CSL did have a track connection with Gary Railways and that Gary Railways had a connection with Northern Indiana, and we know that Northern Indiana had a connection with Winona, and that Winona had a connection with Union, and Union a connection with Lima and Western, and then came the components of what went in C&LE into Toledo, and then the Lake Shore to Cleveland, so one could probably get as far as the eastern terminals of Shaker Heights, or even further, if there were interurbans running east from Cleveland, a matter where I am not knowledgeagble. An alternate route would have been Union-Public Service of Indiana Fort Wayne - Indianapolis through service, then Terre Haute and Eastern to Richmond, Dayton and Western to Dayton, and then up north to Toledo and the Lake Shore east to Cleveland.
As far as I know, the South Shore was paralleled by 600v lines for its entire length in 1920.
.
C&SC got one car (2859) as a replacement for one lost in a fire.
Chicago Surface Lines had two interstate routes, both with the Hammond, Whiting and East Chicago. In 1920, how far east would it be possible to go via connecting routes under 600 volt wire and actual track connections? (Remember that in 1920 the CLS&SB was still 3300V AC)
We have a winner!! As an aside, SSRy and C&SC did not get any new cars in the CSL era but did receive buses in the last few years prior to the CTA takeover. All of the trolley buses were owned by Chicago Rys since the trolley bus routes were in their service area.
Rcdrye, it's your question.
Chicago Railways (North and West Sides)
Chicago City Railway (South Side)
Calumet and South Chicago St. Railway (Far Southeast Side)
Southern Street Railway (Roosevelt Rd)
In the Chicago Surface Lines era, new cars were generally divided 60/40 C Rys and CC Ry. C&SC and Southern St. Ry weren't normally assigned new cars. The underlying companies explains why many similar car types (including PCCs) had two different number series for each group.
I'll build from the last question. Chicago Surface Lines was the operating entity for Chicago's streetcars, trolley buses and some buses. What were the four underlying companies that owned the trackage and cars for CSL.
The 1933 extension into Grant Park, mainly for the Century of Progress fair, but also to serve Soldier Field, ran through the Central Station trainshed above the IC tracks. The "Bird's Eye View" of Central Station (on the main "Classic Trains" page) shows the CSL bridge. Several lines ran to the Grant Park loop during the fair, carrying "Worlds Fair Direct" signs. The extension and loop lasted until April 1953 as a shuttle after the main Roosevelt Rd line was converted to bus operation in August 1951. The main Roosevelt Rd. line was converted to Trolley Bus in May 1953. A short bit of Roosevelt Rd track between Ashland and Paulina remained active for Ashland cars until 1954.
The supports for the CSL bridge were visible in the trainshed until it was demolished.
On the west end, CSL and CTA leased the south track on Roosevelt from Chicago and West Towns until 1951. C&WT used buses after 1940. The last "zag" on the Chicago Ave route was west for a bit on 35th Street from Laramie. The route survives in part as Pace route 305, though it no longer runs on Chicago Avenue in Oak Park at all.
You mean the 12th Street line actually ran into Central Station? Or is the question confusing as referring to two different lines?
Absolutely correct - The C&WT line was the zigzag Chicago Avenue line that ran on Chicago Ave and Harlem in Oak Park (River Forest), Madison, Des Plaines and Roosevelt in Forest Park and Cicero, and Laramie in Cicero.
Your question!
The city line involved is the Roosevelt Road (12th Street) line on Chicago Surface Lines, trackage owned by the Chicago Rys, which covered most North Side and West Side lines. The suburban company involved would be Chicago & West Towns. The Cermak Road line was the only one operated on Southern Street Ry trackage.
Steam Railroads.
Was the trainshed used by steam railroads or just by interurban electric railroads and streetcars?
Some Type 4s converted to snowplows are still around, at least in museums. Seashore Trolley Museum in Maine has a center-entrance car (6131) under reconstruction with a new underframe to replace the salt-rotted original. The pattern car 6270 may get the same treatment later as at least some duplicate parts were made. Seashore also has two type 5s, one in service in Maine (5281) and one on permanent loan to the T, stored in Boylston St. station (5734).
Here's the new question:
This city car line had several interesting features:
One end of the line was extended through the trainshed of a major station. The extension outlasted the main car line.
The line had some sections where the tracks ran in a "side median" between the main travel lanes and a parking area.
This was the only line owned by this one of four companies that made up the city system.
The outward end of the line shared track with a suburban company, the city line and the suburban line each owning one track for about a mile and a half. The suburban company converted its portion to bus more than a decade before the city line was converted.
You got the answer. It must have been quite a sight to see a little Pullman trolleycoach followed by a three-car center-entrance train going from the Bennet Street carhouse near Harvard Square (and these movements went through the square on the surface tracks usually) to go into service at Lechemere on the Beacon Street Riversie Line. In the Spring of 1940, the Boston Elevated finally added enough tracks at the Reservoir carhouse yard to discontiniue having to base Beacon Street center entrance trains at Harvard.
The third and oldest class of pre-PCC's were the Type 4's, and they were kept busy during WWII. The last were kept for the Northwestern U (Huntington Av. subway portal) - N. Station service, and finally ten Type 5's were equipped with Tomlinson non-mu couplers to replace them in that service in 1953. Type 4's hauled center-entrance trailers, a few trains running into Maverick in East Boston in the early 1940's. No trailers were around at the end of the war, the last being scrapped with the third PCC delivery. The Type 5's with couplers were replaced by the Dallas cars. 77 had been operated by Type 4's before conversion to TT. Massachusetts allowed one-man operation of cars withOUT the Birney pattented safety features normal to all other one-man "safety cars" or its foot-peded release to apply varient used by Third Avenue and Omaha.
Your question.
This is way before my time around the T but from what records I can find It looks like 77 Harvard-Lechmere via Cambridge St. Rail, Overhead and Pans at Lechmere, TT overhead at Harvard. You could still see some rail peeking through pavement into the 1980s at least.
Boston's two biggest classes of pre-PCC streetcars were very different. The Center-Entrance cars (3000s) were heavy, MU-capable and required two man operation. The "Type 5s" (5000 series) were cheaply built, (sort of) suitable for one-man operation, single unit only. The Type 5s also had very aggressive controllers and "stonewall" brakes. Even with top speeds of 12 MPH (series) and 24MPH (parallel) they could make a pretty good schedule.
The "A" Watertown Green Line was a victim of PCC shortages in the 1960s after the "D" Riverside line opened. The line to Watertown was kept open for access to the Watertown shops, where some PCC maintenance but lots of service equipment maintenance was done. The wire down Washington Ave was never converted for pans, and some T service equipment still uses trolley poles, or at least did so until very recently.
Correction. It was NOT a service connection during WWII. It was a service connection between the conversion of the revenue line to trolleybus in 1936 or 1938 and its formal abandonment in May 1940. But the track was there all during WWII with the trolleybus wire in fine shape and unchanged from the time rail vehicles used the positive wires, sp streetcar service could have been restored. The hints in the previous posts should give enough clues for an answer.
But I will give the explanaiton as to why rail service was not restored. To meet vastly increased ridership, cars intended for scrapping were put back into service. At one point during the war, 100 PCC's were received to add to those already in service, but only 37 old cars were scrapped. All the old cars restored to service were built before WWI. They required constant maintenance to keep them operation. The trolleybus fleet was quite new and requjired far less shop attention. Regarding tires, the system found ways of stretching rubber supplies through recapping. So it made sense to keep runnign TT's on the line and not convert it back to rail.
Now, which line is this?
The Arborway line was not effected by the restoration of service during WWII because it was a full time subway surface line before and after and was only cut back to Heath Street well after WWII. Also, it ran with all base service PCC cars for many years, and at the end all service was with PCC cars, with LRV's introduced after it was cut back to Heath Street.
The revenue line for which the regular nonrevenue movements provided equipment did run with PCC's for many years, but the non-revenue movements were not PCC's and the only time PCC's ran over the line were for tests or shop moves or fantrips.
One more hint. Route name, the street, and the general localtion - the same. Also, one can still fine steel rails and overhead wire at both ends of the line. At one end they are together, but with pantographs and no trolley poles. At the other end they are separated and there are trolley poles. But the line today is diesel bus with wires gone and rails paved over.
It must be the "E" Green line section on Huntington Avenue that now ends at Heath but used to go to Arborway.
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