Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

735138 views
6853 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 21, 2019 3:07 PM
Hints, not articulated, the real beginning of modern freight power
  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 20, 2019 3:29 AM

A large Eastern railroad system pioneered a specific type of modern steam lomotive, named and operated in a specific geographical region, and used their until dieselization, when many were used elsewhere on the system where routs had not yet been dieselized.  Identification noted on the tenders, the road name, was usually changed, repainted, when these locomotives were relocated.

There are several examples of this modern type in steam today, but none of these originals.

A much smaller similar system then bought near-duplicates of these originals for the same purpose on a parallel and competitive route, but made one accessory change that dramtically altered the appearance and reminded people of a somewhat controversial person that often made news headlines.

Both lines were among the first to be dieselized on their respective systems despite the success of this modern type of locomotive.

Name the systems and routes and locomotive type and why the repainting of road name on the first example.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 3,796 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, November 19, 2019 10:13 AM

I'm going to give you this one.  SP bought 10 B-W Class D's for Pacific Electric, one for the Peninsular Railway on the San Francisco peninsula, three for Oregon (which stayed there 'til 1941, when all three went to the Waterloo, Cedar Falls and Northern) and one more identical to the PE units except for a pantograph.  Intended for use on the Oakland Mole as a passenger switcher, it was used for about 18 months on SP's IE lines for freight service before getting sent to Pacific Electric as their 1611.  On the SP it was lettered Southern Pacific, but it was offically the property of the Central Pacific, still existing on paper, and the legal owner of the Oakland Mole.  Big CP initials showed ownership. CP continued to exist until 1959, when it was formally merged into SP along with T&NO, H&TC and other lines that had retained separate IDs to that point.

There's a picture of it on Getty Images, still in SP paint with CP letters, but operating on PE, with a PE pneumatic pole instead of its original pan.  Copyright prevents posting it here.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 19, 2019 9:27 AM

Must be the Oregon and California for the Portland-area electrification.  Was not merged into the SP until sometime in the 1920s.  I assume the mus must have been similarly lettered originally.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 3,796 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 18, 2019 12:53 PM

daveklepper

Were the eight-wheeled steam locomotives 2-6-0s or 4-4-0s?

 

I'm sure some of both, but the 4-4-0's are better known.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 18, 2019 10:48 AM

Were the eight-wheeled steam locomotives 2-6-0s or 4-4-0s?

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 3,796 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 18, 2019 6:21 AM

It wasn't labelled SP.  Don't forget a lot of lines that were folded into SP still existed in 1912.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 18, 2019 3:26 AM

Southern Pacific, and possibly one was lettered SP for use on the East Bay SP electrification while it was still SP before renamed Interurban Electric and passenger-only. Or it may have been intended for the Portland suburban electrfication, also labeled SP.   I imagine they all ended up on Pacific Electric, because that was the only one of the four SP subsidiaries with electrifications that had a substantial freight business handled with electric power.    

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 3,796 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Friday, November 15, 2019 6:13 AM

This giant western railroad system bought around a dozen interurban-style 60 ton electric locomotives from Baldwin-Westinghouse with the intention of using them on various lines.  At least one of them was delivered lettered for a system component more famous for having eight-wheel steam locomotives than electrics.  Name the big system, the component, and ID where it was supposed to be used.  All of the B-W motors ended up on the same system member.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, November 14, 2019 8:36 AM

Branford got a gift of an operable Red Arrow St. Louis 1948 car, but needs to reguage the trucks.  Its two inoperable mates at Branford (Shore Line Trolley) were then sold to MUNI to be rebuilt as double-end PCCs, and either one or two will be painted for Red Arrow (possibly one for SEPTA).  The MUNI "Torpedo" PCC now painted for Red Arrow will then be repainted, possibly a MUNI scheme or Illinois Terminal or Dallas.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 3,796 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, November 13, 2019 2:45 PM

daveklepper
But that does not seem to stop SF's MUNI, witih Brookfield's help, from making two of them to PCCs for SF's E Line.

MUNI 1007 painted in PST (Red Arrow) colors has been on MUNI as a double-ended PCC since it was built in 1948.  The other "Philadelphia" cars are painted for either Philadelphia Rapid Transit Co. or Philadelphia Transportation Co.

1055 in PTC paint was built as PTC 2122

1060 in PRT paint was built as PTC 1060

I was in San Francisco over the weekend.  Nice parade of PCCs on Market and the Embarcadero, with single-end cars covering F (Market and Wharves) and double-enders covering E(Embarcadero).  Also saw a couple of PCCs on J Church on pull-outs.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 13, 2019 1:18 PM

Brilliners electrically were identicle to PCCs with the same motors, automatic accelerator, etc, but had Brill's own inside-frame trucks, a different body style but still quite streamlined, similar interior lighting and seats.  Baltimore had one sample, Philadelphia two, I believe, and one or two other cities, which ones I have forgotten.  The double-end Red Arrow cars were not Brilliners, although the body was a true double-end version of them, because they had the same trucks and all electrical equipment that the 1931 cars.  (Similarly, the 1948 Red Arrow St. Louis cars were not true PCCs, with outside-frame drop-equalizer solid-wheel trucks and a control system also similar to the 1931 Brill cars.  But that does not seem to stop SF's MUNI, witih Brookfield's help, from making two of them to PCCs for SF's E Line.  A few difficulties have shown themselves, but they should be overcome.)

The 10 Brill Washington DC cars were similar to 10 from St. Louis, and preceded both PCCs and Brilliners.

I think they were carried on PRR books as MP-38s or MP-39s.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 3,796 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, November 13, 2019 9:58 AM

Atlantic City had a fair number of standard Brill streetcars.  The streamliners were built by Brill and called "Brilliners".  Washington DC and maybe Baltimore had a few, but they also had PCCs. Red Arrow had some double-enders that were similar.

  The interurban was the "Shore Fast Line", the Atlantic City & Shore,  between Atlantic City and Ocean City, which operated with third rail between the cities.

It looks like PRR acquired the Atlantic City streetcars along with the West Jersey and Seashore, which later became part of PRR's portion of the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines.

You'll have to tell me what the PRR designation was for the Brllliner. 

I should have something posted by tomorrow.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 13, 2019 9:15 AM

Right. Go on if you wish, or do you wish to leave it me?

And of couse ask a new question. 

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 3,796 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, November 12, 2019 9:15 AM

Atlantic City?  The "Miss America" fleet?

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, November 10, 2019 9:27 AM

Part of the same operation, the PRR also had some real interurban cars sharing tracks in the small city, but these pre-dated PRR control and may never had had PRR type designation.

The streetcars included a modern fleet, that as a fleet was unique to the small city, but about three or four other systems had one or two samples.

The DL&W had Phoebe Snow.  This modern fleet had a connection more general to the fair sex.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, November 6, 2019 12:39 AM

Not New Orleans (or NYCity Harlem) or "Caladonia," but the specific city or large town is not very very far from a large city that does rhyme.

And thanks for some terrific listening.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 8,905 posts
Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, November 5, 2019 1:21 PM

Is the city homophonous with this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR6pHtiNT_k

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, November 5, 2019 12:23 PM

What streetcars, not mu, not interurbans, not suburban equipment, but actual streetcars, operated by a PRR subsidiary, were included in PRR passenger car rosters and even had a type letter-designation.  Name the city and you are a winner, but do supply any other information you can.

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 3,796 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 4, 2019 12:20 PM

daveklepper

West Point?

 

The Atlanta & LaGrange was extended to West Point Ga. in 1852, meeting the Montgomery & West Point there.  For reasons I haven't been able to find, the M&WP was built to standard gauge, the A&LG (by now the A&WP) used the five-foot gauge more common to the American South.  West Point got a lot of mileage for a little more than a decade as a transload point between the two railroads. The M&WP was badly damaged in the last days of the Civil War, with the Battle of West Point occuring after Appamatox.  Rebuilt to five foot gauge, the M&WP came under common management with the A&WP, eventually coming under ACL/L&N control.  The M&WP merged with the connecting Western Railway of Alabama in 1870. The combined A&WP/WofA system of a couple of hundred miles became known as the West Point Route.  West Point itself remains as a small city along the Georgia/Alabama border, but with little local rail activity.  The Southern Railway's Crescent and Piedmont Limiteds operated via the West Point Route and L&N between Atlanta, Montgomery and New Orleans.  The WPR, along with the Georgia Railroad, was rolled into the Family Lines/Seaboard System/CSX system and remains important to CSX.

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 4, 2019 8:20 AM

West Point?

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 3,796 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Monday, November 4, 2019 6:17 AM

The small system took the name of the city where the gauge change was.  One of the lines was built to standard gauge, regauged after considerable damage to match the other line, then both were regauged to standard gauge.  The small system operated as part of a well-known passenger route, retained its identity into the 1970s and remains an important line for its current owner.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 8,905 posts
Posted by Overmod on Monday, November 4, 2019 6:14 AM

I thought the Clinchfield was, like the Virginian, substantially built long after the gauge change (from 5') of most Southern railroads.

(Would you believe I'd never heard of George Carter before checking on this?)

Apparently more than the usual death, destruction and flame associated with so late a construction time period:

http://www.stateoffranklin.net/johnsons/clinchfield/wild_crews.pdf

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Monday, November 4, 2019 5:54 AM

Clinchfield?

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 3,796 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Friday, November 1, 2019 8:05 AM

daveklepper

North American or foreign?

 

North American

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 31, 2019 2:21 PM

North American or foreign?

  • Member since
    May 2012
  • 3,796 posts
Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, October 31, 2019 6:47 AM

This regional system took its name from a former gauge change point.

  • Member since
    April 2018
  • 1,238 posts
Posted by Jones1945 on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 11:27 PM

rcdrye

Hall-Scott delivered the cars to Hong Kong in 1921, though it took until 1922 before they entered service. The railway was the Kowloon-Canton Railway, running from the mainland part of the Hong Kong Colony to the Chinese city of Canton.  The cars became the "Taipo Belle" (1936) and "Canton Belle" (1937), with a streamlined cowl, armchair seats, cocktail bar and smoking lounge.

I can't find a definite answer on the trailer coach, but it was either wrecked or converted to an air-conditioned lounge car "Aurora".

https://industrialhistoryhk.org/kcrc-railway-british-section-3-early-years-1910-1940/ 

Correct!  The trailer car was converted into a reserved saloon. Ref. "Kowloon-Canton Railway (British Section) - A History" (1990) P.115 by Robert J. Phillips. 

  • Member since
    June 2002
  • 15,246 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, October 30, 2019 3:38 PM

Impressive question and answer!

Look forward to RC's question.

SUBSCRIBER & MEMBER LOGIN

Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more!

FREE NEWSLETTER SIGNUP

Get the Classic Trains twice-monthly newsletter