Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, June 21, 2019 10:11 AM

Most of us are aware of the operation of the bottle train in the Calumet region of Northwest Indiana and Illinois.  What were the original endpoints of this train and its original route.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, June 21, 2019 12:16 AM

Nice to know the history of MILW's early diesel and the Fast Mail train! 

CSSHEGEWISCH, it's your turn. :  )

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, June 20, 2019 1:04 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

The railroad was MILW, one of the trains was the "Fast Mail", and the diesels were EMD E6A's and Alco DL109's.

 

You got it.  E6 15A/B and DL109 14A/B arrived in 1941 and immediately assumed duties making one Chicago-Minneapolis round trip daily, covering the Fast Mail and the Morning Hiawatha.  The E6 pair was considered the faster and more reliable of the two, and was known for making up time on the 85-miles-in-75-minutes Milwaukee-Chicago leg, with recorded speeds of 112 MPH.  The Fast mail was one of the heaviest of MILW's trains, often running more than 20 cars, occasionally as many as thirty.  The Fast Mail's schedule was as demanding as the Hiawathas', requiring fast running between mail handling stops.  Both sets were bumped to secondary trains after the E7s and later FP7s arrived.  West Milwaukee shops put a new cab on 14A in the early 1950s that looked like a cross between an EMD and a Baldwin.

Each pair effectively freed up a Baldwin-built F7 4-6-4 by covering two trips in a day.

Baldwin-built 4-8-4s 260-267 arrived in 1943.  261 is active as an excursion engine.

14A/B remained in service until the late 1950s, though not officially retired until 1961.

15A/B were traded in on E9s in 1962.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, June 20, 2019 10:14 AM

The railroad was MILW, one of the trains was the "Fast Mail", and the diesels were EMD E6A's and Alco DL109's.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, June 20, 2019 10:12 AM

Jones1945

My answer: Baltimore and Ohio Railroad 

B&O #50 manufactured by EMC in 1935, hauled the Abraham Lincoln and Royal Blue.

B&O EA #51 manufactured by GM in 1937, hauled the Capitol Limited, National Limited.

I hope I'm right... Coffee

 

Those were joined by the EA-EB sets 51-56 in 1937.

Both sets I'm looking for were delivered in 1941, one set each by two different manufacturers.  The two sets were the only passenger diesels owned by the railroad before 1946, though it did have seven four-unit FT sets delivered in 1943.

Thanks to WPB restrictions on passenger diesel locomotives, the railroad had to settle for 10 4-8-4s in 1943 instead. One of those survives today.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Thursday, June 20, 2019 9:16 AM

My answer: Baltimore and Ohio Railroad 

B&O #50 manufactured by EMC in 1935, hauled the Abraham Lincoln and Royal Blue.

B&O EA #51 manufactured by GM in 1937, hauled the Capitol Limited, National Limited.

I hope I'm right... Coffee

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, June 20, 2019 6:32 AM

A lot of the equipment pulled by the two diesel sets was built in the company's own shops.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, June 18, 2019 7:09 AM

This railroad, known for innovative steam design, purchased two sets of passenger diesels, each set from a different manufacturer, shortly before WW II. The two pairs were used on the heaviest and fastest trains on the railroad. Not joined by other diesels (other than switchers) until after the war, they effectively replaced two steam locomotives each.  Name the railroad, at least one of the trains handled, and make/model.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, June 17, 2019 9:33 AM

Rob:

Second 99 is the correct answer!

Next question to you.

 

Ed Burns

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, June 17, 2019 7:51 AM

Overmod
If that is so, an amusing follow-on question for the likes of some of the experts here would be what "HHS&S" stands for.

I didn't find the reference you mentioned but I DID find that NP had built a couple of shop switchers on frames acquired from various "dummy railways" including one in Philadelphia.  They were listed in NP records as having been built at Brainerd shops.  Since you mentioned Helena that led to the Helena Motor Railway. This was an early steam dummy line that went bankrupt before it was finished, and then was finished as the "Helena Hot Springs & Smelter Railway", which ran from Helena's NP depot to the Broadwater Hot Springs Hotel.  Sold at a receiver's sale in 1890, the line was broken up, with NP acquiring #12.

All of this being very interesting indeed, but I think Ed is looking for NP 99 II, an NW2 acquired second hand from the NYO&W (their 115, EMC SN 3148 delivered 5/1941)...  99 I was a 44-tonner intended for Duluth Union Depot and Terminal which NP rostered as 99 while DUDT resolved labor issues, then took it over as DUDT 5, all of which happened before NYO&W was abandoned.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, June 14, 2019 11:53 AM

The only thing this is really likely to be is Shop 12, from the HHS&S.

If that is so, an amusing follow-on question for the likes of some of the experts here would be what "HHS&S" stands for.  I won't ask it only because a Google search eventually produces the reference ... waaaay down in an unsearchable non-OCR online typescript about a relatively unrelated subject (a thesis on Helena, Montana street railways).  But it would be fun to see if any of you know what it is without looking...

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Posted by NP Eddie on Friday, June 14, 2019 9:51 AM

Good morning all and happy Friday!

The second re-named Pullman is as follows:

My reference is "Car Names, Numbers, and Consists". Page 26 lists a number of "Imperial" prefixed cars for assignment to the NYC. Two are the Imperial State and the Imperial Estate. In February of 1950, the Imperial Estate was re-named Imperial Manor (page 35).

Next question is easier: The Northern Pacific purchased one and only one second hand switch engine. What road did the NP purchase said locomotive from and what was its NP number. I would see that locomotive at Northtown.

Ed Burns

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Posted by NP Eddie on Wednesday, June 12, 2019 2:25 PM

ALL:

If no one answers the second car by Friday, I will give the answer.

Ed Burns

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, June 11, 2019 8:18 PM

ACL 1946 Budd-built diner St. Petersburg was renamed Orlando so a 1948-built dining room car from the C&O (part of a twin-unit built for the Chessie) could be named St. Petersburg. Though both cars lasted into the SCL era, neither was part of Amtrak's initial purchase.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, June 10, 2019 9:05 AM

Rob:

You have one car correct--keeping digging for the 2nd one.

Ed Burns

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, June 10, 2019 8:05 AM

rcdrye

One of the pairs involved L&N's 1953-built 6Sec6Rmt4DBR car "Southern Pine", renamed "Dixie Pine" in 1955 since ACL had 1954-built 4sec4Rmt5DBR1Cpt car "Southern Pines".  Probably especially confusing since both cars ran in Florida service.

 

Please, rcd--Southern Pines was a Seaboard car. Two things--the SAL served Southern Pines, and the ACL did not have any lightweight cars with sections. I checked my immediate reaction with the listings in Car Names Numbers and Consists.

Johnny

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, June 10, 2019 7:34 AM

One of the pairs involved L&N's 1953-built 6Sec6Rmt4DBR car "Southern Pine", renamed "Dixie Pine" in 1955 since ACL had 1954-built 4sec4Rmt5DBR1Cpt car "Southern Pines".  Probably especially confusing since both cars ran in Florida service.

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Posted by NP Eddie on Friday, June 07, 2019 11:45 AM

Rob:

Good answers, but not the four names I am looking for, Keep digging.

Ed Burns

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, June 07, 2019 7:01 AM

Milwaukee renamed 8dupRmt6Rmt4DBR Pullmans Mississippi River and Missouri River to Chippewa River and Vermillion River.  The originally intended car names had been grabbed by GN for 2dbr1Cpt Lounge observations used on the Empire Builder.  Pullman records compiled by the Pullman Project do not list the MILW cars under the original names.  The GN cars were renamed Choteau Coulee and Twelve Mile Coulee in 1955 when rebuilt for Western Star service.

The Milwaukee's cars were assigned to the Pioneer limited.

Since Pullman identified cars primarily by name, duplicate names were a big no-no. Nickel Plate's 1950 order of 10Rmt6DBR and 6DBRLounges had several cars with "City of" names that duplicated car names in C&O's huge 1950 order.  Pullman designated the cars "primarily by number" using NKPs 100 and 200 series numbers.  NP and SP Pullmans were designated only by number, except for SP cars in "Golden State" assignment.  Eight of the NKP cars lost their numbers and got new names after they were sold to IC in 1965 (by N&W).

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Posted by NP Eddie on Sunday, June 02, 2019 10:57 AM

Two lightweight Pullmans were quickly re-named after their original names were too similar with two existing Pullmans. Dig into "Car Names, Numbers, and Consists" for the answer. Good hunting!

Ed Burns

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Posted by Miningman on Saturday, June 01, 2019 1:00 PM

Either Nariq01 of NP Eddie is up! 

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, May 07, 2019 6:46 AM

Looks like this may work out. 

Ed got the "Cent" cars, 82 of which were built in three lots, all initially assigned to the New York Central.  Air conditioned in the early 1930s, they ended up all over the map, but most of them were still active in 1950.  Eventual owners after the Pullman breakup were as far apart as Central of Georgia and Soo Line.  One even ended up owned by Canadian Pacific.  The Soo/CP Winnipeger had them or similar cars until the train was discontinued in 1965.

Nariq01 got the Central series observations which were all originally assigned to NYC where they covered multiple sections of the Century and other top-of-the-line trains.  Sidelined by the 1938 Century's streamlining, 13 of them were sold to the PRR(!) in 1942, where they were used as parlor cars, 7 went to the US Government as Hospital cars in 1943, the remaining 4 staying in the Pullman Pool until sold by Pullman in the mid 1950s.  One car (Central Bridge) was destroyed after a 1942 wreck.  The four pool cars still had Ice air conditioning in 1950, indicating infrequent use.

 

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, May 06, 2019 10:32 PM

NP Eddie

All:

My reply did not post so I shall re-send it. Are you looking for the "CENT" pre-fix cars?  Most were assigned to the NYC.

Regarding the sleeper lounge cars, the only cars that fit the discription, are the many "Park" series car for the CP. Non operated in Pullman service.

Ed Burns

 

Central Plains

http://www.freedomtrain.org/freedom-train-consist-8-pullman-observation-car-central-plains.htm

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, May 06, 2019 10:16 PM

NP Eddie

All:

My reply did not post so I shall re-send it. Are you looking for the "CENT" pre-fix cars?  Most were assigned to the NYC.

Regarding the sleeper lounge cars, the only cars that fit the discription, are the many "Park" series car for the CP. Non operated in Pullman service.

Ed Burns

 

At the Lake Shore Railway in NorthEast, Pa 

https://lakeshorerailway.com/rolling-stock-of-lsrhs/

Pullman “Central Park”

Built in 1925; last known Pullman-NYC observation/lounge/sleeper to exist in its original configuration. Ran on the NYC and the 20th Century Limited. Unique, heavyweight Pullman, related to locale. Configuration: 3-compartment, 2-drawing room, lounge/observation. (Women’s restroom turned into a kitchen, pre-LSRHS.) Observation lounge partially restored in 2006 and opened for public viewing and education on car restoration.

Last one. 

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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, May 06, 2019 5:18 PM

All:

My reply did not post so I shall re-send it. Are you looking for the "CENT" pre-fix cars?  Most were assigned to the NYC.

Regarding the sleeper lounge cars, the only cars that fit the discription, are the many "Park" series car for the CP. Non operated in Pullman service.

Ed Burns

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, May 06, 2019 2:46 PM

rcdrye
rcdrye

It's almost impossible to believe how many cars the Pullman Company had at one time.  Cars were (mostly) identified by name, which made it difficult to tell at a glance what type a car was.  Pullman tried to deal with this by using similar names on similar cars, and, if possible, giving cars names that reflected their (initial) assignments.

For one of its largest customers, Pullman made two series that pointed to the railroad where they were usually assigned.  One series of 75 8sec,2Cpt,1DR cars (Plan 3979A) all started with the same four letters, the other series of 24 3 Cpt,2DR lounge observations (Plan 3959) had one entire word from the railroad's name.  Both series of cars had long service lives, but are best known for their initial assignment.

Give the railroad and the prefixes.  This should not require going to reference books...

 

 

 

How hard can this be?  What other Pullman customer would need 24 nearly identical sleeper-lounge observations?

 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, May 06, 2019 6:12 AM

rcdrye

It's almost impossible to believe how many cars the Pullman Company had at one time.  Cars were (mostly) identified by name, which made it difficult to tell at a glance what type a car was.  Pullman tried to deal with this by using similar names on similar cars, and, if possible, giving cars names that reflected their (initial) assignments.

For one of its largest customers, Pullman made two series that pointed to the railroad where they were usually assigned.  One series of 75 8sec,2Cpt,1DR cars (Plan 3979A) all started with the same four letters, the other series of 24 3 Cpt,2DR lounge observations (Plan 3959) had one entire word from the railroad's name.  Both series of cars had long service lives, but are best known for their initial assignment.

Give the railroad and the prefixes.  This should not require going to reference books...

 

How hard can this be?  What other Pullman customer would need 24 nearly identical sleeper-lounge observations?

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 05, 2019 9:56 AM

I should have noted that both Sedgewick and Elm and Walnut had routes that overlapped some double-track distance shared with a line or more that had more frquent service, and that only the Holy Cross Cemetary shuttle operated only on its own exclusive single track.   Sedgewick with Tremont on Burnside Avenue to either Jerome Avenue or 3rd Avenue, someone can check where e crossover was, and "9" on Main Street between Getty's Square and the "Foot of Main Street" at the car house and the Central's Yonkers Station.

Te Holy Cross Cemetary Shuttle kept running until Nostrand was converted to bus in 1948.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, May 02, 2019 6:46 AM

It's almost impossible to believe how many cars the Pullman Company had at one time.  Cars were (mostly) identified by name, which made it difficult to tell at a glance what type a car was.  Pullman tried to deal with this by using similar names on similar cars, and, if possible, giving cars names that reflected their (initial) assignments.

For one of its largest customers, Pullman made two series that pointed to the railroad where they were usually assigned.  One series of 75 8sec,2Cpt,1DR cars (Plan 3979A) all started with the same four letters, the other series of 24 3 Cpt,2DR lounge observations (Plan 3959) had one entire word from the railroad's name.  Both series of cars had long service lives, but are best known for their initial assignment.

Give the railroad and the prefixes.  This should not require going to reference books...

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