Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, May 07, 2019 6:46 AM

Looks like this may work out. 

Ed got the "Cent" cars, 82 of which were built in three lots, all initially assigned to the New York Central.  Air conditioned in the early 1930s, they ended up all over the map, but most of them were still active in 1950.  Eventual owners after the Pullman breakup were as far apart as Central of Georgia and Soo Line.  One even ended up owned by Canadian Pacific.  The Soo/CP Winnipeger had them or similar cars until the train was discontinued in 1965.

Nariq01 got the Central series observations which were all originally assigned to NYC where they covered multiple sections of the Century and other top-of-the-line trains.  Sidelined by the 1938 Century's streamlining, 13 of them were sold to the PRR(!) in 1942, where they were used as parlor cars, 7 went to the US Government as Hospital cars in 1943, the remaining 4 staying in the Pullman Pool until sold by Pullman in the mid 1950s.  One car (Central Bridge) was destroyed after a 1942 wreck.  The four pool cars still had Ice air conditioning in 1950, indicating infrequent use.

 

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, May 06, 2019 10:32 PM

NP Eddie

All:

My reply did not post so I shall re-send it. Are you looking for the "CENT" pre-fix cars?  Most were assigned to the NYC.

Regarding the sleeper lounge cars, the only cars that fit the discription, are the many "Park" series car for the CP. Non operated in Pullman service.

Ed Burns

 

Central Plains

http://www.freedomtrain.org/freedom-train-consist-8-pullman-observation-car-central-plains.htm

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, May 06, 2019 10:16 PM

NP Eddie

All:

My reply did not post so I shall re-send it. Are you looking for the "CENT" pre-fix cars?  Most were assigned to the NYC.

Regarding the sleeper lounge cars, the only cars that fit the discription, are the many "Park" series car for the CP. Non operated in Pullman service.

Ed Burns

 

At the Lake Shore Railway in NorthEast, Pa 

https://lakeshorerailway.com/rolling-stock-of-lsrhs/

Pullman “Central Park”

Built in 1925; last known Pullman-NYC observation/lounge/sleeper to exist in its original configuration. Ran on the NYC and the 20th Century Limited. Unique, heavyweight Pullman, related to locale. Configuration: 3-compartment, 2-drawing room, lounge/observation. (Women’s restroom turned into a kitchen, pre-LSRHS.) Observation lounge partially restored in 2006 and opened for public viewing and education on car restoration.

Last one. 

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Posted by NP Eddie on Monday, May 06, 2019 5:18 PM

All:

My reply did not post so I shall re-send it. Are you looking for the "CENT" pre-fix cars?  Most were assigned to the NYC.

Regarding the sleeper lounge cars, the only cars that fit the discription, are the many "Park" series car for the CP. Non operated in Pullman service.

Ed Burns

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Posted by narig01 on Monday, May 06, 2019 2:46 PM

rcdrye
rcdrye

It's almost impossible to believe how many cars the Pullman Company had at one time.  Cars were (mostly) identified by name, which made it difficult to tell at a glance what type a car was.  Pullman tried to deal with this by using similar names on similar cars, and, if possible, giving cars names that reflected their (initial) assignments.

For one of its largest customers, Pullman made two series that pointed to the railroad where they were usually assigned.  One series of 75 8sec,2Cpt,1DR cars (Plan 3979A) all started with the same four letters, the other series of 24 3 Cpt,2DR lounge observations (Plan 3959) had one entire word from the railroad's name.  Both series of cars had long service lives, but are best known for their initial assignment.

Give the railroad and the prefixes.  This should not require going to reference books...

 

 

 

How hard can this be?  What other Pullman customer would need 24 nearly identical sleeper-lounge observations?

 

 

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, May 06, 2019 6:12 AM

rcdrye

It's almost impossible to believe how many cars the Pullman Company had at one time.  Cars were (mostly) identified by name, which made it difficult to tell at a glance what type a car was.  Pullman tried to deal with this by using similar names on similar cars, and, if possible, giving cars names that reflected their (initial) assignments.

For one of its largest customers, Pullman made two series that pointed to the railroad where they were usually assigned.  One series of 75 8sec,2Cpt,1DR cars (Plan 3979A) all started with the same four letters, the other series of 24 3 Cpt,2DR lounge observations (Plan 3959) had one entire word from the railroad's name.  Both series of cars had long service lives, but are best known for their initial assignment.

Give the railroad and the prefixes.  This should not require going to reference books...

 

How hard can this be?  What other Pullman customer would need 24 nearly identical sleeper-lounge observations?

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 05, 2019 9:56 AM

I should have noted that both Sedgewick and Elm and Walnut had routes that overlapped some double-track distance shared with a line or more that had more frquent service, and that only the Holy Cross Cemetary shuttle operated only on its own exclusive single track.   Sedgewick with Tremont on Burnside Avenue to either Jerome Avenue or 3rd Avenue, someone can check where e crossover was, and "9" on Main Street between Getty's Square and the "Foot of Main Street" at the car house and the Central's Yonkers Station.

Te Holy Cross Cemetary Shuttle kept running until Nostrand was converted to bus in 1948.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, May 02, 2019 6:46 AM

It's almost impossible to believe how many cars the Pullman Company had at one time.  Cars were (mostly) identified by name, which made it difficult to tell at a glance what type a car was.  Pullman tried to deal with this by using similar names on similar cars, and, if possible, giving cars names that reflected their (initial) assignments.

For one of its largest customers, Pullman made two series that pointed to the railroad where they were usually assigned.  One series of 75 8sec,2Cpt,1DR cars (Plan 3979A) all started with the same four letters, the other series of 24 3 Cpt,2DR lounge observations (Plan 3959) had one entire word from the railroad's name.  Both series of cars had long service lives, but are best known for their initial assignment.

Give the railroad and the prefixes.  This should not require going to reference books...

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, May 01, 2019 8:15 AM

Sedgewick, indeed, is the one I wanted.  Neperhan, "5," was a fairly long line, had about six or seven cars during rush hours, three or four off-peak, and one only during wee morning hours.  But a major portion was side-of-road "open track," single with passing sidings.

Elm and Walnut, "9," was Yonkers' one-car single-track line.

Brooklyn's was the Holly Cross Cemetary Shuttle, off Nostrand Avenue.

Await your question.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 12:08 PM

Sedgwick Avenue in the Bronx. Nepperhan had some open track.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 9:49 AM

Nepperhan!

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 1:50 AM

I took the second question literally for a minimum answer.  I was not certain when the NYC-exclusive GCT-Montreal Pullman, via Messina instead of over the D&H, was dropped, and it may have been before the late 40s.  You can check on this.

The Central did indeed have have the Wolverine, with NY - Chicago Pullmans via Canada and Detroit, crossing the boarder twice each way.  And Chhicago - Toronto through on the CP east of Windsor.  At one time, perhaps even in the late 40s, on car ran through to Montreal.  I rode, at one time or another, all these crossings, although one or two may have been after the Central took over its own sleeper operations, and they were not strictly Pullmans anymore.

A very esoteric question:  The New York City area, during WWII and for two years after, had three one-car streetcar lines operating entirely or mostly on single track, with all track in the street.   Two were in New York City and one north of the city.  Name one and you win.   Only one car handled all runs on each of these lines.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:57 PM

NYC also operated Pullmans to Toronto and other Canadian points via Buffalo, so the entire "Water Level Route" from New York to Buffalo handled pullmans for both Canada and Mexico.  PRR handled a Washington-Mexico City car in addition to the New York-Mexico City cars, so only the sections New York-North Philadelphia and Baltimore-Washington actually qualified.

I thought the gap made it a bit more intersting.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:52 PM

rcdrye
The interurban was the Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:46 PM

rcdrye
More of the NYC than Dave mentioned, and PRR had a gap between the two sections that qualify.

Where else, aside from the Adirondack line when it went through, did NYC operate sleepers to Montreal?  I would need access to an OG to confirm whether sleepers operated west from Toronto for interchange 'down' to St. Louis; it's far more obvious they would go east and down to Buffalo, although again I don't know whether they would be switched directly into the Southwestern's consist there as I don't remember where the cutoff to the Big Four is relative to other logical transfer points in Cleveland.  Likewise any sleeper coming south to Utica might ride a different train west before being incorporated into any St. Louis train.

Far as I can tell, the only necessary "gap" necessary with the PRR service is that a through Pullman from Canada would have to be switched out of the Montrealer consist and put into the relevant part of the Penn-Texas New York section, and if that had to be done at Sunnyside I don't think 'through passengers' would be allowed to stay on the car during that time.  That might be an argument for doing the 'swap' in Washington (or some other place depending on how the Washington section of the Penn-Texas was actually routed)

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 25, 2019 9:48 AM

What you haven't identified is how much of each railroad fit the bill for carrying Pullmans to both Canada and Mexico.  More of the NYC than Dave mentioned, and PRR had a gap between the two sections that qualify.

The interurban was the Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern, whose core was the Newton and Northwestern, an Iowa coal road between nowhere and nowhere - actually Newton and Rockwell City.  The FDDM&S used the N&NW main line from just south of Boone north to Hope, later upgrading it with the spectacular bridges the Ft. Dodge line was known for.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 25, 2019 8:10 AM

daveklepper
the Montreal Limited and Montrealler-Wasningtonian had both coaches and sleepers to and from Montreal.

Pullmans via Utica, over what is now the Adirondack Scenic when it went 'all the way'?

Surely there were Pullmans via the CASO to Toronto?  Or the other way via Detroit?

I was personally hoping for something more esoteric, involving one of the Western railroads, that would provide actual Pullman service, not just coach trains (for example, did Pullmans ever run on the SD&AE?)  Or perhaps some incarnation of the Gould lines at the height of their pre-'92 grandeur -- or a later arrangement involving the MP/C&EI that would actually connect to something Canadian as it would post '74.

It was my understanding that the Penn-Texas sleepers were actually handled via the MoPac south and west of St. Louis, as were the connections from the Southwestern arriving via their different route via Cleveland.  There would be the obvious 'gaps' between Utica and Buffalo west to Cleveland (where the lines diverged) on the NYC; the Montrealer would likely exchange any sleeper from Canada with the Penn-Texas consist out of Penn Station, but could also, very thoretically, have done this via the Washington, DC section.

By 1960 the actual 'Mexico City' sleeper apparently ran only as far as San Antonio, where you would have to change to the one going via the Penn-Texas route.  If I remember correctly there was at least one PRR-lettered sleeping car in full MoPac Eagle colors ... there has to be a photo collection somewhere of the various 'Pennsylvania' cars in other liveries, UP being a famous one.

I remember the ad for the Southwestern Limited sleepers to Mexico City and still marvel a bit that it was possible.  

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 25, 2019 7:46 AM

The first question I believe was the Illinois Terminal, and the second, the PRR and NYC.  I believe both the Penn Texas and the Southwestern Limited carried Mexico City sleepers, and of course the Montreal Limited and Montrealler-Wasningtonian had both coaches and sleepers to and from Montreal.  In the late '40s.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, April 24, 2019 8:26 PM

No one seems to have bitten on the interurban question so I'm going to replace it:

Until the late 1940s two different railroads had lines that carried through Pullmans to both Canada and Mexico.  Name both of them, and the lines.

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, April 18, 2019 9:16 PM

The earlier discussion on the "Golden Arrow" caused me to recall that the train named "Fleche d'Or" commenced on 13 September 1926, but the British train was not named "Golden Arrow" until 15 May 1929. So it seems likely that the naming of the British train influenced the naming of the Pennsylvania train later in the same year.

Peter

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, April 16, 2019 12:51 PM

This midwestern electric railroad known for freight activity started out as a steam-powered railroad built to access coal fields.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, April 15, 2019 3:50 PM

Interesting since the ICC said a train named 'Nellie Bly' was involved in one of the Delair Bridge approach wrecks almost three weeks earlier.

I'd also be interested in hearing any other name for the train involved in the Bordentown wreck circa 1901 (the fatal and unexpected third of three sections!)

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:36 AM

Historical Note

There was a train named indirectly for a person in 1892--the Nancy Hanks, which was actually named for a race horse which had been named for Abraham Lincoln's mother. In 1947, the Central of Georgia revived the name with the Nancy Hanks II, which made a day round trip from Savanna to Atlanta and back, arriving in Savannah at midnight. This train lasted until 5/1/71. It carried a diner-lounge to the end--with a dome car the last few months.

Johnny

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:14 AM

rcdrye

Lucius Beebe's 1961 book "Twentieth Century Limited" claims that the Commodore started some time after the Advanced 20th Century...

 

On page 145 in that book, Beebe includes the Railway Age article that describes the 20-hour trains that were introduced on 9/29/29, including the Advance 20th Century Limited and the Commodore Vanderbilt.

I mentioned this in another post some time ago, that Beebe's books, although full of atmosphere, sometimes plays loose with the facts.

If your local library has access to back copies of the Chicago Tribune or New York Times, you can look up articles and advertisements concerning the inaugruations of those trains.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Monday, April 15, 2019 11:07 AM

Overmod

  

And long before that, there was Nellie Bly.

  

According to Baer's list of PRR train names (available at www.prrths.com), Nellie Bly was applied to a New York-Atlantic City run on 4/25/26.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, April 15, 2019 6:55 AM

Lucius Beebe's 1961 book "Twentieth Century Limited" claims that the Commodore started some time after the Advanced 20th Century...

The train preceded the bathtub streamlining of Hudson 5344.  Apparently 5344 was just part of the pool, and often worked a section of the "Century" or some other name train.

I'll post another question later today.

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Posted by Jones1945 on Monday, April 15, 2019 2:22 AM

Overmod

Raises the further question: was the streamlined Commodore Vanderbilt locomotive named for the train that was named for an individual? Smile

Was the Commodore Vanderbilt a preferred engine of the Commodore Vanderbilt? Idea 

Jones Family Railroad Hobby YouTube Channel: 
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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, April 14, 2019 10:00 PM

ZephyrOverland
 
Overmod
 

Suspect you will find, with that date match, that their De Witt Clinton was named for the locomotive. 

Which, in turn, was named for a former governor of New York.

.

Raises the further question: was the streamlined Commodore Vanderbilt locomotive named for the train that was named for an individual? Smile

To add more fuel to the fire, there was a Flagler Limited on the FEC in mid-1925.

And long before that, there was Nellie Bly.

 

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Sunday, April 14, 2019 7:45 PM

Overmod

 

 
ZephyrOverland
If NYC's publicity machine did their due diligence, they would have found out that their De Witt Clinton was running back in 1926.

 

Suspect you will find, with that date match, that their De Witt Clinton was named for the locomotive.

 

Which, in turn, was named for a former governor of New York.

To add more fuel to the fire, there was a Flagler Limited on the FEC in mid-1925.

Either way, the naming of the Commodore Vanderbilt signaled to the industry that naming passenger trains after individuals was appropriate.  Shortly thereafter you start seeing more trains being named in that manner.

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