Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[passengerfan]

We are still trying to answer the Santa Fe Streamliner Question?

If no one else jumps in I will print the list this evening.

Al - in - Stockton

[passengerfan]

Heres the list of Santa Fe Streamliners.I'm just going to list the ones you guys missed.

Kansas City Chiefs - Kansas City/Chicago

Tulsan - Tulsa /Kansas City with through cars to and from the Kansas Cityan/Chicagoan to and from Chicago. 

Cavern - Clovis/Carlsbad operated with M-160 or M-190 and Budd Coach Observation. On display at the museum in Dallas.

El Pasoan- Albuquerque- El Paso.

Al - in - Stockton

 

[passengerfan]

I guess it is either Al - in - Chicago or Texas Zephyr's turn to ask a train question.

Al - in - Stockton

[al-in-chgo]

West Coast Al, IIRC the Santa Fe streamliners all had to have "Chief" in the title.   Since this is a new thread, can you comment on that?  It seems like you ought to be the winner, but we should nail down the exact answers.  Again IIRC there were eight of them; does that sound about right?  -  a.s.

 

[al-in-chgo]

al-in-chgo

West Coast Al, IIRC the Santa Fe streamliners all had to have "Chief" in the title.   Since this is a new thread, can you comment on that?  It seems like you ought to be the winner, but we should nail down the exact answers.  Again IIRC there were eight of them; does that sound about right?  -  a.s.

 

I thought there was a post that followed mine, at about 6:13 p.m. today, but I can't find it in CLASSIC TRAIN QUESTIONS.

Here's what I know, with passengerfan's help:

The Chief

Super Chief

San Francisco Chief

Texas Chief

Kansas City Chief

(The Grand Canyon was not a "Chief," but it had a sleeper from the Super Chief that was hauled in the night almost to the brink of the Grand Canyon.  The LAUS to San Diego runs were called "San Diegans," not "Chief" that I know of.) 

I'm  coming up with only five of the alleged eight Chiefs.

Passengerfan, are you ready to give the answer?  I'm not going to win it, but I bet I'm not the only one who would like to have the answer(s).  -  al

 

[passengerfan]

al-in-chgo

al-in-chgo

West Coast Al, IIRC the Santa Fe streamliners all had to have "Chief" in the title.   Since this is a new thread, can you comment on that?  It seems like you ought to be the winner, but we should nail down the exact answers.  Again IIRC there were eight of them; does that sound about right?  -  a.s.

 

I thought there was a post that followed mine, at about 6:13 p.m. today, but I can't find it in CLASSIC TRAIN QUESTIONS.

Here's what I know, with passengerfan's help:

The Chief

Super Chief

San Francisco Chief

Texas Chief

Kansas City Chief

(The Grand Canyon was not a "Chief," but it had a sleeper from the Super Chief that was hauled in the night almost to the brink of the Grand Canyon.  The LAUS to San Diego runs were called "San Diegans," not "Chief" that I know of.) 

I'm  coming up with only five of the alleged eight Chiefs.

Passengerfan, are you ready to give the answer?  I'm not going to win it, but I bet I'm not the only one who would like to have the answer(s).  -  al

 

The original question was name the Streamlined trains of the Santa Fe. In the above post you named those that were Chiefs. In addition the following Santa Fe train received streamlined status.

Grand Canyon

Tulsan

Cavern

El Pasoan

San Diegans

Chicagoan/Kansas Cityan

Golden Gates

and surprisingly there were several numbered trains that for all intents and purposes were streamlined as well most of these were found in Texas and connected with either the Texas Chiefs or connected with the San Francisco Chief at Clovis. In addition the connecting trains from La Junta to Denver were streamlined but they were all numbered trains.

Al - in - Stockton

 

[daveklepper]

But the La Junta - Denver trains were usually combined with D&RGW trains north of Pueblo, so they were not pure AT&SF.

[passengerfan]

daveklepper

But the La Junta - Denver trains were usually combined with D&RGW trains north of Pueblo, so they were not pure AT&SF.

Absolutely correct and at one time they operated combined with the C&S/FW&D 9-10 between Pueblo and Denver.

Al - in - Stockton 

[al-in-chgo]

Are we ready for a new question?  -  a.s.

 

[passengerfan]

al-in-chgo

Are we ready for a new question?  -  a.s.

 

Si

Al - in - Stockton

[al-in-chgo]

passengerfan

al-in-chgo

Are we ready for a new question?  -  a.s.

 

Si

Al - in - Stockton

OK.  It's July of 1955 and you want to go by train from Lynchburg, VA, to Alexandria, then a week later from Lynchburg to Richmond, then a week after that from Lynchburg to Petersburg.  Name the RR companies that will get you there without a change, the (approximate) name of the relevant passenger depots in Lynchburg, and any passenger train (name or no.) that can get you to those places.   

Let's try it without research or looking in the O.G.R., at least for now. 

allen

 

[daveklepper]

Lynchburg to Alexandria is easy.   The Southern had a wide selecton of trains, including the all-Pullman Crescent, the Southerner, the Piedmont Limited, the Pelican, the Tennesian, and you had your choice of just about any Pullman accomodation you wanted.  If the Southern and Norfoolk and Western had separate stations, then I would have had to use the Southern Station for all but the Pelican and the Tennesian which probably used the N&W station or both.

Lynchburg to Richmond is difficult, but I believe the Southern did have an Atlanta - Richmond through sleeper, which may have also run through Raloigh or Durham, and I think was taken off a mainline train at Goldsboro. NC.   It would have been logical for it to be handled on the Crescent.   In fact, I think I once rode it southbound from Richmond to Atlanta, in a drawing room on a standard 12 and 1 heavyweight sleeper.   The branch-line train may have been  a mixed.   The Southern, as I remember, had its own small station in Richmond, with just a simple single platform, and my Richmond client drove his car right to the door of the Pullman.

The Norfolk and Western probably had a through sleeper via Petersberg and the ACL (not the Seabord).   There was the trhough New York to Norfolk sleeper at the time via the PRR, RF&P, ACL (not the Seabord) and N&W via Petersurg, rode it, so a Cincinnati-Richmond or Cincinnati-Washington sleeper via Petersburg would have been perfectly logical. also.

The Norfolk and Western ran both the Pocahuntis and the Powatten Arrow and several local trains between Lynchburg and Petersburg.

[al-in-chgo]

Daveklepper, you are right on the money about the Southern Railway.  That was their old main line, (New Orleans) Atlanta - DC. 

On the second trip, Lynchburg to Richmond, I was thinking of an entirely different (and freight-competitive) railroad company. 

For the third journey no ACL involvement was necessary to get from Lynchburg to Petersburg.  Right line, but you should give us an idea of where their depot was.  (Hint:  N&W thru trains did not use the Southern's station in Lynchburg (Kemper St.).

[daveklepper]

I didn't mean to include ACL in the third journey, Petersberg was and is on the N&W, now NS, east-west main line.   So is Lynchberg.   It was the N&W station, and I thought I said so.   The tricky part of the question is use of the Southern between Lynchburg and Washington.   Which station you used depended on which Southern train you took.   If you took one that came off the N&W, like the Pelican or the Tennesean, you used the N&W station.  If you used the Cresdent or the Piedmont or the Southener, you used the Southern Station.

If the C&O served Lynchberg with the James River main frieght line with passenger service, then that would be the train you arer looking for in the second question.  But the three thorugh trains with Pullmans etc., the George Washingnton, the Sportsman, and the Fast Flyinig Virginian did not in my memory serve Lynchberg.   At least not directly.   If the C&O did serve Lynchberg, I presume it used its own station, but this is only a guess.

[al-in-chgo]

daveklepper

I didn't mean to include ACL in the third journey, Petersberg was and is on the N&W, now NS, east-west main line.   So is Lynchberg.   It was the N&W station, and I thought I said so.   The tricky part of the question is use of the Southern between Lynchburg and Washington.   Which station you used depended on which Southern train you took.   If you took one that came off the N&W, like the Pelican or the Tennesean, you used the N&W station.  If you used the Cresdent or the Piedmont or the Southener, you used the Southern Station.

If the C&O served Lynchberg with the James River main frieght line with passenger service, then that would be the train you arer looking for in the second question.  But the three thorugh trains with Pullmans etc., the George Washingnton, the Sportsman, and the Fast Flyinig Virginian did not in my memory serve Lynchberg.   At least not directly.   If the C&O did serve Lynchberg, I presume it used its own station, but this is only a guess.

Basically, you've got it nailed except for a couple of minor errors.  Absolutely the way to get from Lynchburg to Alexandria (and on to D.C.) was to take the Southern out of Kemper Street station, just south of downtown (it still exists as an Amtrak station and was rehabbed several years ago).  It didn't matter if you were taking the Tennessean or the Pelican or the (Southern) Crescent northbound; the first two trains had already finished their run over N&W lines, had switched onto the Southern main, and stopped at Kemper.  My mom and I remembered that there was always a slight "hold" for northbound N&W/Sou. trains at Forest, about four miles south of downtown Lynchburg.  Probably the trains were awaiting clearance onto the Southern tracks.

I never said the C&O train thru Lynchburg had to have a sleeping car.  The famous examples you mention like the G.W. and the F.F.V.ran on the C&O mainline, Newport News - Richmond - Charlottesville - Clifton Forge - Cincinnati, and thus were a good sixty miles north of Lynchburg.  However, there was at the time in question  a local train (until 1958) that ran (Cincy??) Clifton Forge - Lynchburg - Richmond and it was indeed on the James River Line, which I understand now carries more eastbound coal than the old C&O main.  Their station in Lynchburg was downtown on the river front and any passenger depot is gone.  (Ironically, though, train fans in Lynchburg got ahold of an old C&O way station a couple of years ago and wanted to set it up next to busy RR tracks where it could be seen by passengers --- so now that old C&O station is right by the exx-Southern main!)   

To go east (towards Petersburg and Norfolk) you'd need to use the N&W's depot and take one of their trains, like the Pocohontas or the Powhatan Arrow.  Their station used to be on the south side of town, further south than Kemper St. station, but still in town.  In the Sixties N&W built a new passenger station much further south, in a place where (at that time) there had not yet been a great deal of suburban development: 1100 Woodall Road.  Apparently this station made the trip a little smoother because the varnish didn't have to go into town and then out again; instead they "skirted" Lynchburg.  This station was closed at the advent of Amtrak in 1971, but revived a time or two in the Seventies and Eighties for whatever Amtrak version of the "Harley Staggers Special" was running over the old N&W main.

So, pre-Amtrak, three more or less competitive roads, and three different depots in Lynchburg.  My uncle Guy, who drove a cab, said there was a lot of transferring among them.  -  a.s.

Take it away daveklepper! 

 

 

[daveklepper]

1.   What was the longest interuruban line between two major cities in the USA, with or without through service, but under one management?.

2.   What was the longest interurban run, not necessarily the above, in the USA.?

3.   Which interuruban lines ran sleeping cars and between which points?

 

One hint:   Al the interubans involved in the answers also provided freight srvice.

[passengerfan]

One of the answers to part 3 would it be Illinois Terminal between Peoria and St. Louis.

Al - in - Stockton

[al-in-chgo]

  -  "2.   What was the longest interurban run, not necessarily the above, in the USA.?"

Longer than Chicago to South Bend, or Chicago to Milwaukee?  -  a.s.

 

[daveklepper]

The Illinois Terminal answer is correct, but is only one of three.   You are allowed to do research to find the other two.

Yes, longer than the North Shore and longer than the CSS&SB.

[henry6]

Wasn't the Empire State Railways line across NY longer...from Rochester to Utica at least.

And then Ohio and Indiana had some very long runs, too.

Gave a map to the Warehous Pt. Trolley Museum back in the 60's that showed all lines in the 20's and you could figure out how to travel by interuban virtually from Portland ME to Chicago with a few gaps but many changes and little sleeping.

[wanswheel]

Sam Insull controlled interurban lines from Milwaukee to Louisville but there doesn't seem to have been any direct continuity of tracks between the two cities. Cincinnati and Toledo at far ends of Ohio were connected by the Cincinnati & Lake Erie Railroad. I don't know of two major cities further apart on one interurban line. The longest passenger interurban run was Cincinnati to Detroit, C&LE and the Eastern Michigan-Toledo Railway.  An even longer interurban freight run was Cleveland through Toledo to Cincinnati, Lake Shore Electric and C&LE. 

http://www.indianahistory.com/ihs_press/web_publications/railroad/keenan.html

http://www.davesrailpix.com/cle/htm/cle44.htm

Interstate had a sleeper Indianapolis to Louisville.

Oregon Electric had a sleeper Portland to Eugene.

Mike

[daveklepper]

Mike, you are sufficiently close to getting all the answers that I have to declair you winner.   You have now listed all the sleepers, Peoria - St. Louis on the Illinois Terminal, Portland to Eugene on the Oregon Electric, and earlier posted Indianapolis to Louisville on the Indiana Railroad, formerly Interstate Corporation.

The longest through run of any interurban schedule was the Cincinnati and Lake Erie's through Detroit - Cincinnati service, but it didn't last and involved a different company moving its car between Toledo and Detroit.   So the longest single through run of one company was San Francisco to Chico California on the Sacremento Northern,   This began only after the Bay Bridge was opened and lasted only a few years until SN cut back interurban operations to Pittsburgh, CA, and then went freight-only.  Its Chico local service lasted until after WWII (the only Birney cars ever run with 3rd rail shoes; to get them to and from the Sacramento shops), and its Sacramento local service ran into WWII but was then merged into Pacific Gas and Elecctric's operation until busses were substituted.  Chico had the last nickle fare in the USA.   Between Sacramento and Pittsburgh, SN trains, both freight and passenger, use a railroad car car ferry, with energized trolley wire on the ferryboat.  Use of this boat, the Ramon, lasted through diesezation in the Post WWII. era.   But in very rough weather, passengers had to use the ferry without movement of the railcars onto the ferry, just a train meeting the boat at the other side.    

 

The longest point-to-pont travel on a single interurban system was from Fort Wayne to Louisville on the Indiana Railroad, but a change of cars in Indianapolis was always necessary.   And the Insull empire was all connected but required some travel over non-Insull lines, specifically, the Northern Indiana east of South bend connecting to the independent Winona.

 

It is Mike's turn to ask.

[wanswheel]

What bridge named for a 20th century Congressman and Senator from Illinois is probably the most expensive thing ever built by an interurban railroad?

[daveklepper]

The Illinois Terminal's entrance into St. Louis, which is still in use as a road vehicular bridge, and I think was named for Senator McKinley, and was built by the interurban line, not by the highway department.

 

[wanswheel]

Dave, yes.

http://trra.info//images/rsgallery/original/Web%201949%20McKinley%20bridge%20copy.jpg

http://www.cs.uiuc.edu/homes/friedman/champaign-urbana/Chapter18.htm

 

[daveklepper]

The Pennsy in general designed its own equpment and built a lot of it in its own shops.  Name as many OTHER railroads, other than PRR subsidiaries, including PRSL, that used distinctive PRR-designed equipment as their own:  Locomotives, freight cars, passenger cars.  This can include terminal railroads and switching operations and second-hand applications.   Even rapid transit and interurban lines if you can think of any.

 Like the Chicago and Eastern Illinois used Erie Stillwell-design commuter coaches.

[daveklepper]

Have I stumped everybody? If so, will the regulars please say so?  I will then give the answers that I know and ask another question.

[henry6]

Looks and sounds like a very complicated question...one in which one's own geography would be helpful and harmful.  H&M (the Tubes) also had Stillwell designed cars, for instance; the LIRR was 99% Pennsy; LV had great PRR influence because of it stock ownershp as did N&W as seen in its position light signals.   How many modeled themselves after the PRR if only because they interchanged soley with them?  The question leads to a lot of wandering.

[al-in-chgo]

daveklepper

Have I stumped everybody? If so, will the regulars please say so?  I will then give the answers that I know and ask another question.

I can speak only for myself, but I am plumb out of guesses.  -  a.s.

 

[daveklepper]

Here is what I know:    The B&O bought some round-top ("wagon-top") steel 40-ft boxcars that always seemed identacle to me to the PRR's, and these were the only two railroads that had them.   The B-6 0-6-0 switcher was the standard for Washington Union Station, not lettered PRR but Washington Union Sttation.  The H&M had Stilwell designed cars but not identacle to the Erie's by any imagination, but although financially completely independent from the Pennsy, did buy identacle cars to the 50 that the Pennsy bought for the Newark  -  Hudson Terminal (World Trade Center) joint service.  These were a Gibbs design, not Stillwell.  And the Gibbs-designed cars built by the PRR for the Long Island Railroad were duplicated as the first steel cars for IRT subway which opened with copper-clad composite cars that were later transferred to the 2nd and 3rd Avenu elevated lines.   The IRT cut center doors into them later, which the LIRR never did.

I'll keep this open for a while in case anyone can add even one more and thus be the winner.   I believe one railroad did copy the N-5 caboose.    Somebody know which one?