Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by henry6 on Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:39 AM

N5...NH? B&M?

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 24, 2009 6:32 AM

Again, anyone have specific knowledge?

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Posted by henry6 on Friday, April 24, 2009 10:53 AM

I'm out of ideas.

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Friday, April 24, 2009 3:44 PM

No knowledge, but a guess:  Norfolk & Western.  Everyone knows about the steam locos, and I believe they built most of their own coal hoppers - probably in the Roanoke Shops, and maybe some other places as well.  Other freight equipment and passenger equipment I'm less sure about, but would not be surprised. 

- PDN.

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Monday, April 27, 2009 4:42 PM

Paul_D_North_Jr

No knowledge, but a guess:  Norfolk & Western.  Everyone knows about the steam locos, and I believe they built most of their own coal hoppers - in the Roanoke Shops, and maybe some other places as well.  Other freight equipment and passenger equipment I'm less sure about, but would not be surprised. 

- PDN.

  Paul, your answer inspires mine:  The Virginian.  After N&W acquired Virginian (in 1959 IIRC) many of the Virginia's electric motors were sold to PRR because N&W was getting read of electric motive power and going over to diesel.  So I don't know if it would be Virginian or N&W.  Either way, if Paul is right I think he should get the win because he inspired me and I wound up in N&W territory anyway!

Peace

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Monday, April 27, 2009 11:25 PM

Are you there, West Coast Al? 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 4:30 AM

By the time the Virginian electrics went from the Norfolk and Western to the PRR, it was no longer the PRR but the Penn Central.   They went from the |N&W to the New Haven, then to  Penn Central, and then were retired by Conrail.

THe PRR did operate some second hand GREAT NORTHERN 11000V AC electrics in freight pusher service after the Cascade Tunnel electrification was replaced by through operation of diesels.

 

Since no onw has definite information on just which railroad used the exact design of the PRR N-5 caboose, and I provided all the other answers, I'll have to ask another question:

 

List all railroads providing common carrier passenger service into and out of Detroit during WWII and the stations they used.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:03 AM

daveklepper

List all railroads providing common carrier passenger service into and out of Detroit during WWII and the stations they used.

New York Central System used the New York Central station. Fort Street Station was used by C&O, Pere Marquette, Pennsylvania, and Wabash. Grand Trunk Western used the Brush Street station. I don't recall if the B&O used the NYC or C&O into Detroit at that time; it did use the C&O at the end of its service into Detroit. In 1969-70, I rode all but PRR into and/or out of Detroit.

Johnny

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Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:45 AM

al-in-chgo

Are you there, West Coast Al? 

I am here just trying to clear my desk of piles of tax files so can use it for trains once again. I have never seen a year where there is this number of tax clients on extension. Guess people don't have the money to pay the IRS? I will be doing taxes right up to October 15th and then some.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:14 PM

B&O and C&O used Fort Street Station.   But one other railroad besides the New York Central and its subsidiary Michigan Central (and ownership of the Canada Southern was through MC, but the NYC had the line to Toledo directly) used what Detroiters called the Michigan Central Staiton (not New York Central Station).   Hint:  The train crew came into the Michigan Central Station but the locomotive crew, engineer and fireman, were Michigan Central employees.   Hint No.  2:  Think of all the motive power that brought trains into MC Station during WWII.

Other than that, you are certianly a winner.   I think the Detroit Toledo and Ironton had some skelital passenger service during WWII, but it may not have been common carrier and in the Guide, and just for Ford employees to Dearborn, not Detroit proper.   Any one know more about this?

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:11 PM

daveklepper

B&O and C&O used Fort Street Station.   But one other railroad besides the New York Central and its subsidiary Michigan Central (and ownership of the Canada Southern was through MC, but the NYC had the line to Toledo directly) used what Detroiters called the Michigan Central Staiton (not New York Central Station).   Hint:  The train crew came into the Michigan Central Station but the locomotive crew, engineer and fireman, were Michigan Central employees.   Hint No.  2:  Think of all the motive power that brought trains into MC Station during WWII.

Other than that, you are certianly a winner.   I think the Detroit Toledo and Ironton had some skelital passenger service during WWII, but it may not have been common carrier and in the Guide, and just for Ford employees to Dearborn, not Detroit proper.   Any one know more about this?

Yes, I should have said "Michigan Central", but could not think of the building as the Michigan Central station. Also, I seldom think of the Canadian Pacific as having service into Detroit, but, it of course did and had through service, in connection with the MC, between Chicago and various points in Canada.

Incidentally, the C&O did not go into Detroit until it absorbed the PM after the war; the PM handled the Sportsman, as well as the B&O trains between Toledo and Detroit.

For some time after the war, the B&O used the NYC/MC for a time, and then went back to the C&O.

As to the DT&I, I checked in my copies of the Guide that were published during the war, and the DT&I (which really was a common carrier) had only freight service by January of 1941.

Last year, I went to Detroit on Amtrak and used the Amtrak station. We do not advise going through Detroit if you are going to Canada by rail: you may have to wait quite a while to get a taxi driver who has the necessary permit to go into and back out of Canada--and the same holds if you come back through Windsor. It is also expensive, what with the tunnel toll.

Johnny

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Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:17 PM

How about Canadian Pacific they operated through the tunnel from Windsor to Detroit along with the NYC trains from and to across Southern Ontario so the CPR must have used the Michigan Central Station.

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 3:56 PM

passengerfan

How about Canadian Pacific they operated through the tunnel from Windsor to Detroit along with the NYC trains from and to across Southern Ontario so the CPR must have used the Michigan Central Station.

Al - in - Stockton

Al, I am sure Dave was referring to the CP–"But one other railroad besides the New York Central and its subsidiary Michigan Central (and ownership of the Canada Southern was through MC, but the NYC had the line to Toledo directly) used what Detroiters called the Michigan Central Staiton (not New York Central Station). Hint: The train crew came into the Michigan Central Station but the locomotive crew, engineer and fireman, were Michigan Central employees. Hint No. 2: Think of all the motive power that brought trains into MC Station during WWII."

An interesting arrangement with the crews?

Johnny

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 4:15 PM

New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 4:48 PM

Deggesty

New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?

Johnny

The Dixie Flagler to Key West?  -  a.s.

 

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:38 PM

al-in-chgo

Deggesty

New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?

Johnny

The Dixie Flagler to Key West?  -  a.s.

 

Al, by the time the Dixie Flagler was created, the Key West Extension had been destroyed below Florida City. It had never repaid the construction cost, so it was not rebuilt.

Johnny

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Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:45 PM

Deggesty

New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?

Johnny

How about the Havana Special of the FEC.

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Posted by Deggesty on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:20 PM

passengerfan

Deggesty

New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?

Johnny

How about the Havana Special of the FEC.

Al - in - Stockton

I got off easily on this one. Yes, the Havana Special went to Key West, passing through Miami in the small hours of the morning and arriving in Key West after an early breakfast. It left Key West just before time for dinner, and passed through Miami four hours later. I presume that the passengers in the Key West-Miami car were allowed to spend most of the night on the car, even if they had not yet gone to bed when it arrived in Miami. The January, 1930, Guide gives no information about occupancy for the southbound or northbound cars.

Your question, Al in - Stockton

Johnny

 

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Posted by passengerfan on Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:07 PM

Texas was one of the states that operated divided coaches separating blacks from whites. Which Texas train on which railroad when first streamlined segregated Hispanics from Gringos and what made the cars different than any other RRs segregated cars? Name the train? 

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, May 01, 2009 6:06 AM

Possibly the Central's Detroit Tunnel electrification might make a good subject for Classic Trains.   The existing and extended GCT electrification is well known, and most people know about Cleveland, but Detroit is often forgotten.

 

I rode the CP Toronto - Detroit, but by that time diesels had replaced steam, and the electrification was abandoned.   I wonder if after that, the CP power and engine crews ran through to Detroit, or did they change at Windsor?   Anyone know?   The train crew was changed at Detroit.   At the time I rode there was an overnighter Chicago - Toronto, and a day train.   These were both integrated into the more frequent Windsor - Toronto and Detroit - Chicago service.   The latter included four through trains from New York City, if my memory is correct.

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Friday, May 01, 2009 6:44 AM

Deggesty

passengerfan

Deggesty

New question: what name train went farther south than any other in the United States?

Johnny

How about the Havana Special of the FEC.

Al - in - Stockton

I got off easily on this one. Yes, the Havana Special went to Key West, passing through Miami in the small hours of the morning and arriving in Key West after an early breakfast. It left Key West just before time for dinner, and passed through Miami four hours later. I presume that the passengers in the Key West-Miami car were allowed to spend most of the night on the car, even if they had not yet gone to bed when it arrived in Miami. The January, 1930, Guide gives no information about occupancy for the southbound or northbound cars.

Your question, Al in - Stockton

Johnny

 

 There were several other named trains besides the Havana Special that departed and/or arrived in Key West:

- Biscayne

- Florida East Coast Limited

- Key West Express

- Key West Special

- Oversea

- Over-Sea Limited

- Overseas Limited

- Tropical Limited

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, May 04, 2009 4:16 AM

Were any though passenger cars carried on car floats to Cuba?   That would be even further south!  Ever?

 

When I said the B&O and C&O always (or almost always, the moves may not have been perfectly sycnornized) used the same station(s), I wasa correct.   Because before the merger or takeover of the B&O into the Chessie system, in the days when the New York Central carreid the through cars of the Sportsman and the George Washington through to Detroit (not sure about the FFV) the C&O did effectly serve Detroit via the NYC.  The wartime traffic between Detroit and the Norfolk area was sufficient for the Sportsman and GW to have a separate Detroit section west of Charlotteseville, and operation as unique trains on the NYC.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, May 04, 2009 2:20 PM

daveklepper

Were any though passenger cars carried on car floats to Cuba?   That would be even further south!  Ever?

 

When I said the B&O and C&O always (or almost always, the moves may not have been perfectly sycnornized) used the same station(s), I wasa correct.   Because before the merger or takeover of the B&O into the Chessie system, in the days when the New York Central carreid the through cars of the Sportsman and the George Washington through to Detroit (not sure about the FFV) the C&O did effectly serve Detroit via the NYC.  The wartime traffic between Detroit and the Norfolk area was sufficient for the Sportsman and GW to have a separate Detroit section west of Charlotteseville, and operation as unique trains on the NYC.

Dave, can you give dates as to when the NYC System handled the C&O’s Sportsman and George Washington between Toledo and Detroit? I do not have precise information on hand, but it has been my understanding that the C& O did not operate any trains even to Toledo until it had absorbed the Hocking Valley and built a connection to the Hocking Valley at Columbus sometime in the thirties. All the schedule information I have (1916, 1930, and late thirties to present), indicates that for several years, the Hocking Valley and the PM had operated through service between Detroit and Columbus, and the PM continued to carry the through trains that came into Toledo on up to Detroit after the C&O was able to operate trains through Columbus to Toledo.

As to the B&O Detroit service, there is no doubt that the NYC System handled the B&O trains into Detroit after WWII. The PM and the Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton were operating through trains between Detroit and Cincinnati in 1917, and this practice continued after the B&O absorbed the CH&D. Apparently after the PM was merged with the C&O the B&O did not want its trains handled by its Washington-Middle West competitor, and changed to the NYC .

As to passenger cars to Cuba, even though there was regular freight car service, I know of no passenger car service, not even in 1916.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, May 04, 2009 2:39 PM

ZephyrOverland
There were several other named trains besides the Havana Special that departed and/or arrived in Key West:

- Biscayne

- Florida East Coast Limited

- Key West Express

- Key West Special

- Oversea

- Over-Sea Limited

- Overseas Limited

- Tropical Limited

Yes, I did not check the 1916 FEC/ACL representation. It shows The Over-Sea Limited as the through train between New York and Key West. There was also the Key West Express, which was then operated (overnight) between Jacksonville and Miami only. And, there was a mixed train that took all day between Miami and Key West. I would say that the Havana Special is the train best known to us poor people who know mainly the trains from the forties and on.

Thanks for telling us about the others.

Johnny

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Posted by ZephyrOverland on Monday, May 04, 2009 8:19 PM

 

Deggesty

ZephyrOverland
There were several other named trains besides the Havana Special that departed and/or arrived in Key West:

- Biscayne

- Florida East Coast Limited

- Key West Express

- Key West Special

- Oversea

- Over-Sea Limited

- Overseas Limited

- Tropical Limited

Yes, I did not check the 1916 FEC/ACL representation. It shows The Over-Sea Limited as the through train between New York and Key West. There was also the Key West Express, which was then operated (overnight) between Jacksonville and Miami only. And, there was a mixed train that took all day between Miami and Key West. I would say that the Havana Special is the train best known to us poor people who know mainly the trains from the forties and on.

Thanks for telling us about the others.

Johnny



Actually, the Over-Sea Limited only ran on the Florida East Coast between Jacksonville and Key West.  It did, however, carry through cars from the north via the Flamingo of the Seaboard and the Florida and West Indian Limited of the ACL.  The FEC consist description gives the impression that the Over-Sea Limited was a through NY train, but in reality it was not.
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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, May 05, 2009 10:19 AM

I am unsure of dates, but I can recall in the WWII years, during myh visits to Charloteseville, that a relative would board the Detroit section of either of the two C&O trains mentioned for a trip to Detroit.   The years of these visits were 1942 and 1943.   I can also recall seeing the names of the two C&O trains listed on the departure board at Detroit's Michigan Central Station in 1945 or 1946, if my memory is correct.   That was the information I was going on.

 

And I don't know of any other through service from Detroit to the Norfolk area.   Does anyone else?

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, May 05, 2009 5:44 PM

daveklepper

I am unsure of dates, but I can recall in the WWII years, during myh visits to Charloteseville, that a relative would board the Detroit section of either of the two C&O trains mentioned for a trip to Detroit.   The years of these visits were 1942 and 1943.   I can also recall seeing the names of the two C&O trains listed on the departure board at Detroit's Michigan Central Station in 1945 or 1946, if my memory is correct.   That was the information I was going on.

 

And I don't know of any other through service from Detroit to the Norfolk area.   Does anyone else?

Dave, after looking through my collection of Guides and C&O and C&O/B&O timetables, I cannot find any evidence that the Sportsman was ever regularly operated into the Michigan Central station in Detroit. Perhaps there was an occasion when the Pere Marquette track was unusable, and the MC handled the train. I admit that my collection of wartime guides is not extensive, but I do have two or three. As to the George Washington's going into Detroit, I have no evidence that it did until the C&O dropped one of its three mainline trains in the early sixties. The first discontinuance was the Sportsman westbound and the F.F.V. eastbound--so the C&O operated the Detroit cars on the George Washington westbound and on the Sportsman eastbound. When, in the late sixties, the George Washington was the only mainline train, it, of course, handled the Detroit cars in both directions. In the end, the service was coach only, with a through coach from Tidewater westbound and to Huntington eastbound (I rode the C&O from Detroit to Washington in September of '69, and had to change in Huntington).

In the early sixties, the C&O and B&O began getting together, and the B&O trains were gradually weaned away from the MC station and moved to the Fort Street station. The last service over the MC was a Saturday only roundtrip from Deshler and back; this ended in the late sixties. The last B&O service in Detroit was the day train to Cincinnati; I rode it, leaving from Fort Street, in the spring of 1969.

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Wednesday, May 06, 2009 12:41 PM

passengerfan
Texas was one of the states that operated divided coaches separating blacks from whites. Which Texas train on which railroad when first streamlined segregated Hispanics from Gringos and what made the cars different than any other RRs segregated cars? Name the train?

Ok, yesterday I hunted and hunted for this question and could not find it.  I spent several hours  researching everything I can think of and have given up.  I can find plenty on the segregation, but nothing on a specific streamliner...   What is the answer.

And what happend to my message that said I could not find this message yesterday.  Seems like I'm in a time warp here.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:04 AM

Does your information indicate what exactly the New York Central trains were that handled the Sportsman and George Washington through cars?     Was I wrong to remember coaches as well as Pullmans running though?

Also rode the Detroit - Cincinnati day train, several times, middle late 1960's.

I rode the Sportsman from Detroit to Prince, WVa (for Beckley)  around 1964, by then from Fort Street and south over the B&O, if memory is correct.   Then, there were coaches and sleepers.

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Posted by passengerfan on Thursday, May 07, 2009 9:51 AM

Texas Zepher

passengerfan
Texas was one of the states that operated divided coaches separating blacks from whites. Which Texas train on which railroad when first streamlined segregated Hispanics from Gringos and what made the cars different than any other RRs segregated cars? Name the train?

Ok, yesterday I hunted and hunted for this question and could not find it.  I spent several hours  researching everything I can think of and have given up.  I can find plenty on the segregation, but nothing on a specific streamliner...   What is the answer.

And what happend to my message that said I could not find this message yesterday.  Seems like I'm in a time warp here.

I will give you the information in a couple of hours I am at my office right now and need to get the info on my home computer.

Al - in - Stockton

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