Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by Deggesty on Thursday, May 07, 2009 1:00 PM

daveklepper

Does your information indicate what exactly the New York Central trains were that handled the Sportsman and George Washington through cars?     Was I wrong to remember coaches as well as Pullmans running though?

Dave, are you asking me about the NYC handling the Sportsman and George Washington? If so, I repeat: all of my schedules indicate that the NYC never handled these trains; the PM handled the Sportsman  between Toledo and Detroit from its beginning (after the C&O built the track from the mainline to Columbus in the thirties) until the C&O absorbed the PM in 1947, and the C&O continued to carry the trains into Detroit as long as they ran. Also, I have no schedule that shows the George Washington going to or from Detroit until the C&O began reducing the number of mainline trains in the sixties. Also, all my schedules indicate through coaches until in 1969 (even then, there was a through coach west/northbound; a change was necessary only south/estbound).

The Big Four did handle sleepers from/to the C&O at Cincinnati to and from Chicago and St. Louis. The Big Four also handled sleepers from/to the Sportsman  between Columbus and Cleveland. The NYC did carry a sleeper that came into Toledo on the Sportsman from Toledo to Chicago; this car was returned by the Big Four from Chicago to the C&O at Cincinnati.

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Posted by passengerfan on Thursday, May 07, 2009 3:00 PM

Texas Zephyr

Now I am home and have the information .

The railroad was the Missouri Pacific and the train was the Valley Eagle.

What made the train different was the composition. Besides a Baggage RPO the train consisted of a Grill Coach that was open to the white passengers only. The other three cars in each consist were Stateroom chair cars and the staterooms were for any overflow white passengers from the grill coach. This is the only train I have been able to find so equipped.

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Posted by passengerfan on Saturday, May 09, 2009 7:38 AM

Name the three GN trains to be streamlined or semi-streamlined in the GNs own shops?

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 10, 2009 4:42 AM

Gopher and Badger are two, if my memory is correct, the third possibly either the Winnipeg train or the GN contribution to the pool Portland Seattle service?

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Posted by passengerfan on Sunday, May 10, 2009 10:17 AM

daveklepper

Gopher and Badger are two, if my memory is correct, the third possibly either the Winnipeg train or the GN contribution to the pool Portland Seattle service?

Nice try Dave the Gopher and Badger are one and the same. The Winnipeg train was not one of the three it became fully streamlined using postwar cars. The Seattle- Portland train was also not one of the three. I will give two hints one operated in Washington State and the other operated in Montana that should make it easy.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 10, 2009 2:25 PM

Wihtout the necessary schedules for reference, I'll have to leave the answer up to others.   But if the Badger and Gopher are one, does that mean that I got one right?

 

I'm still puzzling over how for some 60 years I thought the C&O cars were handled by the NYC into Michigan Central station.  I did make a number of WWII trips to Detroit, mostly with parents and mostly on the Empire State Expres, but a few times by myself, coach overnight on the Wolverine or Detroit Arrow (PRR), and lots of trips by myself to Charlotteseville, but it was long after WWII when I went from Detroit to Prince, and then Prince to NY.

Possibly, ages 10-14 I saw some C&O equipment in Michigan Central station on a special movement of one sort or another; thought that was the evidence; and never bothered to check.

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, May 10, 2009 5:06 PM

daveklepper

Wihtout the necessary schedules for reference, I'll have to leave the answer up to others.   But if the Badger and Gopher are one, does that mean that I got one right?

 

I'm still puzzling over how for some 60 years I thought the C&O cars were handled by the NYC into Michigan Central station.  I did make a number of WWII trips to Detroit, mostly with parents and mostly on the Empire State Expres, but a few times by myself, coach overnight on the Wolverine or Detroit Arrow (PRR), and lots of trips by myself to Charlotteseville, but it was long after WWII when I went from Detroit to Prince, and then Prince to NY.

Possibly, ages 10-14 I saw some C&O equipment in Michigan Central station on a special movement of one sort or another; thought that was the evidence; and never bothered to check.

Al may have sounded a bit cryptic when he stated that the Gopher and the Badger were the same train. There were two sets of equipment, and each made a round trip each day, running as the Badger, providing local service on the morning trip, and as the Gopher, providing limited stop service in the evening; the westbound Gopher made a connection to the westbound Empire Builder in Minneapolis. If the eastbound Empire Builder was not badly late (due in Minneapolis at 6:25 a.m.), you could take the Badger to the Twin Ports (leave Minneapolis at 8:27 a.m.) Incidentally, the NP and Soo trains to Duluth ran Minneapolis-St. Paul-Duluth, and the GN trains ran St. Paul-Minneapolis-Duluth; this service was a pool service.

I will hazard a guess as to the Washington State train, and say it was the International (two sets provided three schedules a day between Seattle and Vancouver). The Montana train may have been a Havre-Great Falls-Butte train.

As to C&O cars in the Michigan Central station, some event may have prevented operation into the Fort Street station. Dave, when you went to Prince from Detroit, you took the C&O all the way, unless you had to detour over the B&O south of Toledo. The probable route of such a detour would have been B&O to Fostoria via North Baltimore and then C&O the rest of the way. You asked about other routes from Tidewater Virginia to Detroit; the C&O is the only one that I ever saw in any schedule.

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Sunday, May 10, 2009 5:30 PM

passengerfan
Name the three GN trains to be streamlined or semi-streamlined in the GNs own shops?

Do you mean the whole train was done by their own shops or just some of it?  I mean some of the cars used to outfit the Western Star were home built, while most were ACF.

The Oberlin Glacier and Harrison Glacier were home shopped and used between the Twin Cities and Winnipeg but that is only two cars.  Was the rest of the Winnipeg Limited home shopped?

The Twin Cities and Twin Ports flat end observations cars rebuilt from Pullman parlor cars, were used in  The Badger & Gopher.

The Puget Sounder carried home shopped parlor cars. 

 The Red River and Dakotan were ACF.

So I am out of ideas,  Is one of them the American / Canadian of 1946? 

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Posted by passengerfan on Sunday, May 10, 2009 6:55 PM

Texas Zepher

passengerfan
Name the three GN trains to be streamlined or semi-streamlined in the GNs own shops?

Do you mean the whole train was done by their own shops or just some of it?  I mean some of the cars used to outfit the Western Star were home built, while most were ACF.

The Oberlin Glacier and Harrison Glacier were home shopped and used between the Twin Cities and Winnipeg but that is only two cars.  Was the rest of the Winnipeg Limited home shopped?

The Twin Cities and Twin Ports flat end observations cars rebuilt from Pullman parlor cars, were used in  The Badger & Gopher.

The Puget Sounder carried home shopped parlor cars. 

 The Red River and Dakotan were ACF.

So I am out of ideas,  Is one of them the American / Canadian of 1946? 

The Alexandran

The answers were the 1947 connecting train to the Empire Builder that operated between Great Falls and Havre. The other was the GN Cascadian between Seattle and Spokane daily each way both had equipment semi streamlined in the Minnesota shops of the GN. The Oberlin Glacier and Harrison Glacier were shopped in the GN shops and emerged as the Winnipeg Club and Manitoba Club but these were streamlined cars built for the 1947 Empire Builder. These cars were originally built as 16 Duplex Roomette 4 Double Bedroom Sleepers and were rebuilt with 8 Duplex Roomette 2 Double bedrooms and the rest of the car became a dining lounge area. The rest of the Winnipeg Limited became fully streamlined with the addition of Western Star 48 seat leg rest coaches when that train received newer Empire Builder 48 seat coaches and the Empire Builder received the Budd built domes. The two trips I made on the Winnipeg Limited it was fully streamlined.

The remaining semi streamlined cars in the Badger /Gopher were those semi streamlined Empire Builder cars from 1937 coaches 938-949. Cars from this same group were used in the Cascadians as well. The semi streamlined equipment for the Empire Builder connection between Great Falls and Havre were all from the GN shops in Minnesota. The power was originally a gas electric that resembled a Zephyr somewhat and also contained a baggage section The two cars were a coach and a parlor Dinette Lounge observation and both were downright Butt ugly. In any event the gas electric proved to be underpowered for the two heavyweight semi-streamlined cars and was replaced by one of the GN E7A units when the Empire Builder switched to F units. Railroad historians are still arguing today whether those cars 938-949 series cars from 1937 were semi-streamlined, streamlined or Hybrids, personally I go with semi-streamlined because the rivets showed and they ran on six wheel trucks.     

Sorry Dave did not mean to be short with you.  I guess it is your question.

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Posted by passengerfan on Monday, May 11, 2009 8:02 AM

For anyones information that wants it the GN Internationals were ACF built streamliners inaugurated June 18, 1950. Each was five cars and operated three round trips daily between Seattle and Vancouver BC. One was initially powered with a new E7A and the other set was assigned an A-B set of F3 passenger units.

The Red River was inaugurated June 25, 1950 between St. Paul and Grand Forks operating southbond in the mornings and retuning northbound in the afternoon. This was a five car streamliner built by ACF and powered with a new E7A unit.

The Dakotan was a heavyweight train for most of its existence and only became a streamliined train after the Red River was discontinued. All but the Cafe Observation was assigned to the Dakotan and that car was rebuilt to a straight coach losing its rounded observation end in the rebuild becoming 68 seat coach 1147.

The other trains you mentioned were heavyweights and many ended up on the GN Seattle Portland pool train that did not receive streamlined cars until its final years as other trains were discontinued.

The only GN streamlined car to operate in the American/Canadian or Puget Sounder was the prewar Pendulum 68 seat coach 999 built by Pacific Railway and Equipment this car spent its entire career of assignments on the west coast. Either as an extra on the Internationals or frequently on the GN Seattle Portland pool train. Once the Empire Builder received domes in 1955 this released the 48 seat coaches from this train to the Western Star and the 48 seat coaches from the Western Star went to the Winnipeg Limiteds and Western coach trains such as the Cascadians, Internationals and Seattle/Portland pool trains. Summers these cars were often assigned as extras to the Western Stars that often ran as many as twenty cars in length with the estra coaches and off-line sleepers assigned to this train going to Glacier National Park. The Western Star carried off line passenger cars from the east through Chicago and Western off line cars from Portland and Seattle. These were all extra sleepers destined for Glacier National Park.

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Posted by Texas Zepher on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 1:19 PM

passengerfan
 Dave ....  I guess it is your question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 4:51 AM

The three full-fare New York - Chicago rail routes were the New York Central, Pennsylvania, and Baltimore and Ohio.  Fares were the same for all three, all allowed stopovers, with some stopovers not on the main route of travel between the two cities.   First, for each of the above three railroads, list all the off-route stopover locations.    Simple example that you might not think of:  Princeton, NJ, for the PRR.   Yes, a through NY - Chicago ticket allowed free passage back and forth on the Princeton Junction and back.   I did it.

 

Second, list all the through low-fare practical trips on the other railroads, no change of cars even in coach and decent dining service all the way, sleeper service available.

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:34 PM

Which year and month's Official Guide do you want me to print, Dave?  I mean after the Big 3 you mentioned there were the Erie, DL&W or LV to NKP or NYC, CNJ-RDG to either B&O or PRR, PRR to N&W,  Off line trips were from Ottawa to Charleston, WVA on the NYC...Rochester and Buffalo to wherever on the PRR.  Oil City on the Erie if you didn't go to Dunkirk or Buffalo (come to think of it you could go to Oil City on the Erie and leave on the PRR or vice versa!)..  Or Pittsburg on the PRR via the DL&W's Bloom...cars from Syracuse, Utica, Buffalo and NY available at one time or another there.  C&O of course got in the act out of D.C. PRR connections with side trip to the Greenbrier. Your question just fills the mind with all the fun you could have riding trains and making up combinations on branches, roads, and Pullman routes if you had the time and the money!!!

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, May 15, 2009 5:29 AM

Please bring some order out of the chaos of your reply.   First , regarding the lower cost alternatives to the PRR, NYC, and BandO, I asked for through trains only, not some Pullmans that happened to be handled, like the CandO route that started out on the PRR in NY and ended up on the NYC in Chicago,  You did mention some correct answers but be specific.   Through NY to Chicago trains with diners, sleepers, and coaches.

Second, under each of the three railroads, NYC, PRR, and BandO simply list the logical off main line cities that someone might logically want to visit as a stopover. and where the basic through fare, with no extra charge, applied.

 The reference Official Guide could be during WWII or just after, say up to 1954, which can be thought of as the year major passenger service retrenchment began.

Have fun and go to it.   Hope to learn something myself!

 

Suppose St, Louis were one of the cities.   It is not of course.   But if were, you would not mention Bellville or Alton or Grafton or Springfield, IL, because it would be understood that were included when you mentioned St. Lous.

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Posted by henry6 on Saturday, May 16, 2009 1:42 PM

I would think the NYC had Niagra Falls as a popular stop over point.    White Sulpher Springs...wasn't that a B&O stopover point? or would we put D.C. on the coupon?  The PRR is the toughest to guess because it would probably be east of Pittsburg putting Baltimore and or D.C. in the running.  And don't forget the lowly Erie, the only other NY to Chi line makling Cleveland good possiblity. 

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Saturday, May 16, 2009 8:30 PM

White Sulphur Springs -- the one in West Virginia, anyway, was on the exx-C&O mainline and the Cardinal stops there three times a week, right across the street from the Greenbriar resort, I've been told. (CSX sold the resort earlier this year). 

I don't think that would be associated with B&O, at least not until the two lines amalgamated in 1963 (C&O acquiring 93% of B&O), in which case the company might have offered a special fare over C&O/B&O trackage; they were known as being somewhat innovative in trying to retain passenger traffic. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure it would have required a transfer, prob. Washington Union Station.   

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, May 16, 2009 9:21 PM

al-in-chgo

White Sulphur Springs -- the one in West Virginia, anyway, was on the exx-C&O mainline and the Cardinal stops there three times a week, right across the street from the Greenbriar resort, I've been told. (CSX sold the resort earlier this year). 

I don't think that would be associated with B&O, at least not until the two lines amalgamated in 1963 (C&O acquiring 93% of B&O), in which case the company might have offered a special fare over C&O/B&O trackage; they were known as being somewhat innovative in trying to retain passenger traffic. Nonetheless, I'm pretty sure it would have required a transfer, prob. Washington Union Station.   

Dave, am I right in interpreting your question as pertaining to side trips on one of the three roads, and not side trips on another road? In 1955, there were through sleepers New York-White Sulphur, New York-Hot Springs, New York -Ashland,  New York-Louisville--all PRR to the C&O in Washington. There were also through sleepers Newport News-Chicago, Richmond-St. Louis, and Clifton Forge-Cleveland; all of these rode over the NYC to their western terminals. Earlier, there was a Pittsburgh-Hinton sleeper that ran over the B&O north of Huntington. But, none of these used the any of the three roads (NYC, PRR, B&O) at both ends.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, May 17, 2009 2:33 AM

I am asking for off main direct line stopover points onliy for the B&O, PRR, and NYC.   And the cutoff dates on which OG's are applciable would be the start of WWII and the date of the end of B&O passenger service to Jersey City and NY, which was 1952, I htink, noit '54.

I mentioned Princeton on the PRR.  Yes, Niagra Falls was definitely a valid stopover on the Central, with your through ticket good from Buffalo and return.  Another was Detroit (along with Ann Arbor, Windsor, St. Thomas, etc), and at least two and possibly four full-service NY - Chicago trains ran via Detroit, the Canada Southern, and the Michigan Central.   And yes, one could make a side trip to Baltimore and/or Washington on the PRR, first so it could compete with the B&O, but the privilege did continue up to Penn Central and possibly even up to Amtrak.   Can someone provide a long and logical listing?

 

I am not looking for such stopovers on the low fare competitors.  Just who were they?  And the C&O was not in the NY - Chicago business.   YOu could route yourself that way but they did not solocite that business and did not have a through coach, onlyi a sometimes through Pullman.   I suspect that if you did route yourself over the C&O, the fare would be the same as the PRR, NYC, and B&O.   Which were the low fare routes (the same low fare).

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Posted by henry6 on Sunday, May 17, 2009 8:28 AM

Well your "low fare" routes out of NYC to Chi had to be the Erie (direct), and the Lackawanna and Lehigh Valley routes via NKP or NYC from Buffalo (through cars not trains). CNJ-RDG to  PRR at H'brg or B&O further on.  O&W never got into the race.

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Posted by Deggesty on Sunday, May 17, 2009 9:59 PM

In the time period that Dave specifies, there were two through "low fare" routes: Erie and DL&W/NKP. It was possible to buy a ticket NY-Chi over DL&W/NYC, but there was no through service, and the fare was higher than that of the DL&W/NKP, although it was lower than the NYC fare. There was a Hoboken-Detroit sleeper that ran DL&W/NYC, but its fare was lower than that of the NYC New York-Detroit service.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:00 PM

 Johnny is correct, that the two through-train low-fare routes were DL&W-NKP and Erie, both with through name trains with coaches, sleepers, and diner, and possibly a lounge car as well.  In addition there was one almost route, the Lehigh Valley and Canadian National and Grand Trunk Western.  The Lehigh Valley train was the Maple Leaf, and it carried through coaches and sleepers for both Toronto and Chicago.   But the Maple Leaf as a train ran to Toronto, and the coaches and sleepers for Chcago were handled by a train with either no name or a different one.   (Assuming memory is correct.)  The fare was the same as the two with the through trains.   The LV did not particularly solicit business to Chicago, but did for business to South Bend, Grand Rapids, Durand, etc.   The Maple Leaf did have the advantage of leaving from Penn Station, Manhattan.

 

Ther side trip stopovers I am looking for are only for the three full-fare routes, B&O, PRR, and NYC.   Enough answsers and you'll then ask the next question.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, May 19, 2009 4:33 PM

daveklepper

 Johnny is correct, that the two through-train low-fare routes were DL&W-NKP and Erie, both with through name trains with coaches, sleepers, and diner, and possibly a lounge car as well.  In addition there was one almost route, the Lehigh Valley and Canadian National and Grand Trunk Western.  The Lehigh Valley train was the Maple Leaf, and it carried through coaches and sleepers for both Toronto and Chicago.   But the Maple Leaf as a train ran to Toronto, and the coaches and sleepers for Chcago were handled by a train with either no name or a different one.   (Assuming memory is correct.)  The fare was the same as the two with the through trains.   The LV did not particularly solicit business to Chicago, but did for business to South Bend, Grand Rapids, Durand, etc.   The Maple Leaf did have the advantage of leaving from Penn Station, Manhattan.

I wasn't aware of this LV-CN-GTW through service, and I checked on it. The last Guide that I have showing it is the November1937 issue; the next issue I have is January 1941, and the through car was gone then. The car ran New York-Suspension Bridge-Hamilton-London-Port Huron-Chicago, and there was no meal or lounge service between Hamilton and London. In 1930, the Lehigh's train was the Toronto-Chicago Express (wb) and the Philadelphia-New York Express (eb); the CN/GTW train was nameless westbound, and the Maple Leaf eastbound.

Now, to look at possible sidetrips during the War.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, May 25, 2009 1:51 AM

If anyone has access to OGs for the 1947-1950 period, I think you will find both a through coach and sleeper, and for a while the LV train was called the Maple Leaf.  Several coaches and sleepers were used the days the start and end of winter and spring breaks for LV's on-line universites and colleges (not just Cornel, but also Ithaca College, one or two State Universities, Hamilton College, etc.) since the LV-CN-GTW route was popular for these studemts and faculty for travel to and from the west and midwest.   This through equipment may not have run every day, possibly certain days of the week.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, May 25, 2009 11:28 AM

daveklepper

If anyone has access to OGs for the 1947-1950 period, I think you will find both a through coach and sleeper, and for a while the LV train was called the Maple Leaf.  Several coaches and sleepers were used the days the start and end of winter and spring breaks for LV's on-line universites and colleges (not just Cornel, but also Ithaca College, one or two State Universities, Hamilton College, etc.) since the LV-CN-GTW route was popular for these studemts and faculty for travel to and from the west and midwest.   This through equipment may not have run every day, possibly certain days of the week.

Dave, I looked in my copies of the Guide for November of 1947 and April of 1948, and there was no through service listed by the Lehigh Valley across Ontario into Michigan and beyond. It is possible that it was re-inaugurated later, but I doubt it, considering how passenger travel was falling off. If there was occasional through service, it may have been announced to the prospective users a little in advance. I have seen other roads' schedules which indicated that certain trains stopped at stations where college students would embark/detrain on certain days. Wouldn't it have been to the road's advantage to let it be known well in advance that the service would be available?

As to the name of LV's train with through service to Toronto from Philadelphia and New York City, it had been changed to the Maple Leaf by November, 1937. I have no information dated between June, 1930, and November, 1937, so I do not know when the name was changed. And, the name remained until the LV dropped the train altogether.

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Posted by Deggesty on Monday, May 25, 2009 11:40 AM

daveklepper
Ther side trip stopovers I am looking for are only for the three full-fare routes, B&O, PRR, and NYC.   Enough answsers and you'll then ask the next question.

I would be absolutely guessing about no-additional-fare side trips that a railroad offered on its own lines. However, it may have been possible to make the following side trips which involved traveling on the main of one road and taking a branch of that road to a point on the main,of another road, with first-class service all the way (there were some possible trips that involved coach only travel).

NYC to points on the B&O: Fostoria, O. Youngstown, O. Pittsburgh, Pa.

NYC to points on the PRR: Pittsburgh, Pa. Warsaw, Ind. Grand Rapids, Mich.

PRR to points on the NYC: Canandaigua, N. Y. Buffalo, N. Y. Cleveland, O. Toledo, O. Detroit, Mich Erie, Pa.

PRR to points on the B&O: Youngstown, O. Akron, O. Martinsburg, W. Va.

B&O to points on the PRR: Lima, O.

B&O to points on the NYC: Toledo, O. Cleveland, O.

These are in additon to some already named.

Incidentally, whether you rode B&O or PRR, the fare Chicago to Baltimore and the fare Chicago to Washington were the same.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 3:48 AM

Thy NYC did offer a stopover in Detroit, obviously, but less obvious was Pittsfield, MA, with travel there via the Harlem Division and then the B&A to Albany or Troy.  Lake Placid, including some travel on the D&H, Niagra Falls, Indianapolis, and Cincinnati, but I did not know about Pittsburgh and have my doubts.   Possibly Toronto.

PRR inlcuded Detroit, with some travel on the Wabash on the Chicago- Detroit link, Toledo, Cinciinati, Indfianapolis, Richmond IN, Willmington, Baltimre, and Washington.   Possibly Buffalo, Cleveland, and Erie PA.  Atlantic City definitely, at least on first class tickets.

The B&O would certainly include Atlantic City, Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis.   Possibly Rochester.   Anyone else wish to suggest others?   Meanwhile, I'll be intersted in Johnny's question.

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:39 AM

daveklepper
Meanwhile, I'll be intersted in Johnny's question.

In late 1945, the New Haven stopped operating sleepers on its overnight Boston-New York train, the Owl, and operated parlor cars, including one for men only. Why? Other railroads also stopped operating overnight sleepers for the same reason.

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 11:05 AM

The sleeping cars were deemed a luxury for a trip of only five hours or so to Boston, and were needed for l-d travel elsewhere, probably for military use.  But the Pullman people got some of their own back by owning the parlor cars and getting to keep part of the first-class fare.  Why the Owl had a parlor car just for men, was probably because there was a high proportion of businessmen heading to Boston from NYC or reverse, at a time when businesswomen were almost unheard of.  Probably the men's car tolerated smoking and cussing, but I don't know about thatSmile

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Posted by Deggesty on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 12:49 PM

al-in-chgo
The sleeping cars were deemed a luxury for a trip of only five hours or so to Boston, and were needed for l-d travel elsewhere, probably for military use. 

No, Al, it was not because sleepers were deemed a luxury for this particular overnight service. Many other railroads were also affected by the order that caused the NH to substitute parlor cars for sleepers; they simply had to add a coach or two to their overnight service. You came close to the real reason, though. After a time; I do not know just when it was; the overnight sleeper service was reinstated.

Johnny

Johnny

  • Member since
    June, 2002
  • 14,913 posts
Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, May 26, 2009 1:17 PM

I remember this very clearly.   Also, if I remember correctly, the same occured on those railroads, Alton, IC, and Wabash, runniing overnight Chicago - St. Louis sleepers.   The Pullman sleepers were needed because of a massive movement of military from the Atlantic to the Pacific coast, since Germany surrended about five months before Japan.

The men-only parlor car allowed men to sleep in their underwear or shorts without disturbing women.

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