Here is a hint on the rubber-tired line that had its streetcar facilities intact during WWII wihtout any revenue streetcar moves. The bus line was a trolleybus line, which had been converted from streecar just by installing the negative wires and necessary trolley frogs and special work at junctions. The track continued to be maintained for service moves. As passenger traffic buit up just before and during WWII the non-revenue moves became very regular, at the start and end of rush hours, and the rail equpmment that moved could handle lots of passenger but did not handle any passengers on this specific trolleybus route. At one end of the trolleybus line, the rail equpment was stored. At the other end it went into passenger service and left passenger service. The conversion from streetcars to trolleybuses took place four or five years before Pearl Harbor. Many railfan specials touring this system used this line.
The line where the equpment moves provided passenger service is still in operaton today with modern light rail equpment. I believe the trolleybus line in now a regular diesel bus line. Its track was removed some time ago. PCC's never provided regular paasenger service on the trolleybus line.
Correction, the lines to Spring Hill and Salem St. were from Sullivan Square, the lines from Lechmere had already been converted before the DOT announcement to rubber tires. As soon as WWII was over the two lines above were back to rush hour only streetcars and then to full-time trolleybuses. The Fellway line from Sullivan Sq past Salem St. to Elm St. continiiued rail for many many more years.
I must have missed the quote marks. SF's cable cars are 3 foot 6 inch (3'6") or 42" as you note. That seems to have been very popular with cable builders.
Denver had 42" cable cars but ended up with 36" gauge electrics, including some interurbans. The oddest gauge I've found is 38" on the Monterey and Pacific Grove in California (later changed to standard) for which no explanation has survived.
We all know about the move back to rail operation from an Office of Defense Transportation order in March 1942. Streetcar service replaced buses on the Putnam line in Brooklyn, where most of the wire and all of the track was still in place. Full time streetcar services was restored on Harvard - Massachusetts Station, Massachusetts Station - Dudley, Lechemere - Spring Hill, Lechemere - Salerm Street, and a few other lines that been run with streetcars during weekday rush hours only and busses at all other times. This was repeated in other places across the USA. But in one of the two city systems discussed above, there was a line complete with track and wire, and in use for regular non-revenue moves, that was not converted back to rail passenger operation. Which line was this and why was it not converted back to rail pasenger operation for the duration of the war? And it was and is a reasonably heavily used line. If you know the answer, go on and describe the regular non-revenue use. Answer if you do not know the reason for the continued use of rubber-tired vehicles on this line, answern if you can describe the regular non-revenue use, and I will explain why rail vehicles where not used for passenger service..
You may be right about the Baltimore streetcar gauge. I think whay confused my memory is that there is actually a 1/4-inch difference between Pittsburgh's and Philadelphia's gauges, and this exists even today!
I think the SF cable cars have 42-inch gauge, not 36.
Baltimore's broad gauge was 5' 4 1/2", about two inches wider than Penn. gauge. Baltimore it is, with the WB&A sharing one rail from 1908 to 1921. L.A. used 3' 6" gauge inherited from the cable cars. S.F's cable gauges were all over the place, from 3'6" (remaining lines, plus others) to 5' (most of which got wiped out by the 1906 quake). Market St was standard gauge. Both Philadelphia and Pittsburgh had 5'2 1/2" cable railways, but early electric cars used the same gauge by statute, not takeover. All of New York's, Chicago's and D.C.'s cable lines were standard gauge, and heavy enough that electrification was done without replacing the cable tracks, though both NY and DC later rebuilt them for better slot operation.
Portland OR used 3'6" gauge, but that was inherited from steam dummy operations. The cable lines adopted the dummy gauge before the electric lines were built.
Your question, Dave.
Baltimore's wide gauge was a quarter of an inch wider than the Pennsylvania wide gauge, and still exists at the Baltimore trolley museum, a worth while three-block walk from the Amtrak station, where one can ride a wide-baube PCC. And of course the interurban line was the Washington Baltimore and Annapolois, with standard gauge and frieght interchange with the steam railroads, particularly the B&O. There may have been some suburban operations at standard gauge that got converted to narrow. The modern light rail system is standard gauge in Baltimore.
Los Angeles had narrow gauge local streetcars, including PCC's, with dual gauge track with Pacific Electric, which also had PCC's, standard gauge. The PE PCC's never ran on the same tracks as the Los Angeles Railway PCC's, however, but PE's heavy wood and steel interurban cars did.
The San Francisco remaining cable cars are narrow gauge, but wider than meter or three-foot. After the 1906 fire, the massive conversion to trolley wire electric power took place, and stahdard gauge was adopted except for the lines that remained cable.
Possibly Yakima had wide gauge local streetcars with standard gauge interurbans.
Toronto has a wide gauge that is narrower than Pennsylvania broad gauge, and three-rail dual gauge is impractical. There were suburban operations that were standard gauge, but there were end-on-end connections and no through running. The one remaining, the Long Branch line, was converted to Toronto gauge many many years agom with through operation. This included the interurbans, which just did not run downtown. The modern light rail system is an evlotuionary development, with much classic streetcar operation still in place, and still; uses the special Toronto gauge. So do their heavy rail rapid transit lines, which preclude extensions over suburban railroads lines. Go Tranist, the suburban train operator, of course is standard gauge sharing some tracks with CP and CN and VIA. Some PCC's are still available for special services in Toronto, and the present high-floor LRV's are to be replaced by newer low-floor ones in the near future.
My apologies for not getting back here.
The west coast is easy the east coast eludes me for the moment.
Thx IGN
With no new question for five days I'll throw this one out:
Several cities' streetcar systems used odd gauges. In several cities, the gauges were inherited from the cable care systems the electric streetcars replaced. In one East Coast city the gauge was wider than standard, and even wider than the 5'2 1/2" Pennsylvania gauge. In the case of the west coast city, the gauge was narrow. Both cities stuck with their odd gauges into the PCC era, and both had at at least some period of their history some stretches of dual gauge track shared with interurbans, and the city with broad gauge track had some suburban operations that were standard gauge. Both cities now have modern Light Rail systems. Name the cities, and the track gauges.
I confess I did not read the question carefully enought. I thought the same line was discussed, the switchback and the conversion from TT to rail! Look forward to the next question.
The line with the switchback was the 33 (18th and Park) which was converted under Market St Railway ownership (I believe it was the first T-bus line in SF). Muni 33 buses still negotiate the tricky curve. MSRy kept a series of "bowling alley" cars just for this line unitl around 1933.
Your question.
rcdrye This public transit operator had a streetcar line with a switchback in the middle, that was replaced by a trackless trolley. In a twist, some trackless trolley operations of a succesor were replaced (in the less than 50 year past) with streetcars (from the more than 50 year past) furnished in the name of the original operator. Name the city, the operator, and at least one of the streets.
This public transit operator had a streetcar line with a switchback in the middle, that was replaced by a trackless trolley. In a twist, some trackless trolley operations of a succesor were replaced (in the less than 50 year past) with streetcars (from the more than 50 year past) furnished in the name of the original operator. Name the city, the operator, and at least one of the streets.
I do not remember a switchback operation though. But considering some of San Francisco's eclectic operations I would not be surprised about a switchback.
Rgds IGN
Good call Rob. I thought this would be a toughie but you've got both the RR, QA&P, and the route right so the next question is yours.
Mark
Was this the all-Texas Quanah Acme and Pacific's train from Quanah TX (SLSF) to Floydada TX (ATSF)?
The Rock Island named the Twin Cities- KC stub of the Twin Star Rocket the Plainsman in the late 1960s, but that's not a short line and less than 50 years ago.
The Plainsman was the name of the only passenger train operated by a certain shortline railroad. What railroad ran this train and between what cities or towns did it run?
Mark...you are IT!!!! Proceed.
Kansas City Clinton & Springfield. At 12:01 (am) O'clock on Dec.1, 1924 the KCC&S was absorbed into the Frisco System and lost it's identity.
The KC, FS & M, or the Memphis Route, was the predecessor of FRISCO's "Northern" Division...but NOT what I'm looking for.
So.. Reading from west to east.. Kansas City, Fort Scott and Memphis ?
And a swag it is, Mark! Far be it from me to wear out my welcome; however. Therefore it is:
HINT O'CLOCK
"Kansas City" appears in the RR name.
Kansas Oklahoma & Gulf - just a SWAG.
Welcome home, Johnny. Wow. You'll feel better with your "stuff" about you.
Nice narrative on the AT&N but.....nope on all accounts so far.
Mark, until the AT&N was pretty well dismantled, it was the Frisco's entry into Mobile, first from Aliceville until the bridge across the Tombigbee river fell in just after a southbound freight crossed it (I talked with the conductor who was on that train and watched the bridge collapse--it was a frightening thing), and then through an interchange with the AGS at Boligee and down to York, from whence the AT&N rails carried the trains down to Mobile. After this reroute, the Frisco crews wanted to take the trains to York, but the AT&N crews won out.
I regret that I never asked to ride from Aliceville to Mobile; I think permission would have been granted, had I asked before the AT&N was wholly absorbed by the Frisco.
My guess is the MKT, between KC and Dallas-Fort Worth.
I came back home this past Saturday, after 13 weeks in a hospital and a skilled nursing facility.
Johnny
Alabama Tennessee & Northern is the most likely possibility that comes to my mind. It parallelled the Fricso's line to Mobile and was bought by the Frisco in the late 40's IIRC and later merged into their system.
This railroad basically paralleled one of FRISCO's routes. While not really part of the FRISCO, eventually some of its track and alignment became the FRISCO while FRISCO trackage was abandoned.
We have a winner!! FlyingCrow, you get the next question.
Incidentally, C&IM remained under Commonwealth Edison ownership until relatively recently, when it was sold to Genessee & Wyoming and was renamed Illinois & Midland.
Chicago & Illinois Midland
Definitely not, EJ&E was a US Steel road.
EJ&E
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We're all fairly familiar with the fact that the Insull interests owned and operated a fair number of interurban railroads. Which steam road was part of the Insull empire?
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