Shadow the Cats ownerEuclid this would be about what that crew in the cab had time to do in their last 10 seconds of life. What the F happened and then Holy S when they saw that GE wide nose in front of them. They had ZERO TIME to even think about grabbing the airbrake lever to dump the brakes.
Oh I would not expect that they had a chance of stopping in time. But I would not say that they had ZERO TIME to dump the air. I have not yet seen any confirmation of their speed entering the switch. But it would be interesting to know what the speed of that train would have been after traveling 700 feet beyond an emergency application.
I am revising my earlier estimate of impact speed to around 50 mph based on the appearance of damage. One factor in estimating the impact speed is that the Amtrak locomotive has not traveled more than approximately 100 feet after impact. In rear end collsions at high speeds, the travel of the locomotive is likely to be much further.
But in a head-on collsion when the locomotive strikes an opposing locomotive, a lof of the energy is dissipated in the jacknifing and telescoping of the trailing rolling stock. This is perfectly illustrated in the videos showing staged head-on collisions using steam locomotives pulling trains. The locomotives stop dead in their tracks, ofter having their tenders tossed up in the air as they jacknife vertically from the impact.
Shadow the Cats owner They had ZERO TIME to even think about grabbing the airbrake lever to dump the brakes.
.
These kinds of events STILL give me nightmares.
In another forum I frequent, most of us use a winking-face emoticon for sarcasm or absurdity. By and large, folks seems to get that.
Apparently this site does not have that emoticon. Might be a good addition.
Still in training.
Isn't the anti-climber supposed to reduce damage that the lead CSX unit suffered or is the P42 designed differently?
It has that emoticon (in the top row) and I use it, but not for anything involving sarcasm or absurdity. It's a wink to ask 'do you get it?' in a friendly way. Just used it, in fact, in a reply in the "made contact" thread.
Sarc of course is far better as a meta tag than as any emoticon; that's also much easier to show 'on' and 'off' in comprehensible context (Same as for rant mode). And perhaps we need a range of 'absurd' emoticons, including one where the little guy looks up with a clueless expression as 'whooooosh!' forms and then dissipates over his head. But a wink is not that; a wink indicates complicity, not contempt.
Emoticons are wonderful things to express meaning that often takes many words to express... unfortunately... they only have the intended meaning to the person that used it. The person (or people) that see it often have no idea what the user intended, or they totally misinterpret it...
Many emoticons are so small that I cannot tell what the meaning is when I send it. On my cell phone i used a particular one to mean "me" being happy, then I found out that it was supposed to mean homosexuality, yet to others it was sarchasm, and to others it was anger. I am now very careful which emoticons I use.
And there are so many emotions that could be represented by emoticons that are not available in most systems. My phone has a "Thumbs Down" meaning "Dissagree" or "Dislike" (I assume) but it does not have a "Thumbs Up" to mean "Agree" or "Like". It has all kinds of Chinese (or possibly Japanese) ideograms that I have no idea what they mean and neither would anyone that I were to send them to. It has both a single Rose emoticon and a single "Wilted" Rose emoticon. I can see using the Rose as an offering of apology, but it could also mean romance... but what does the Wilted Rose mean? Is it a message of "I hate you" or is it a message of "I have apologized and you have not responded and my entreaty is dying on the vine"? Or does it mean, "Here, this is all you are worth!"?
It is hard enough to use words to express meaning because people have differing definitions of many words.
(Insert a grumpy emoticon here!)
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
oltmanndOr, perhaps that train was put there before the signal suspension, so no record of switch thrown and locked was needed?
Don, you're stretching it too far. Remember that Balt said the suspension he knew about was the previous day. I doubt that train had been sitting there unattended with the switch lined wrong and locked for that length of time. Do you really think so, either?
LithoniaOperator In another forum I frequent, most of us use a winking-face emoticon for sarcasm or absurdity. By and large, folks seems to get that. Apparently this site does not have that emoticon. Might be a good addition.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
rdamon Isn't the anti-climber supposed to reduce damage that the lead CSX unit suffered or is the P42 designed differently?
I would opine that above a certain speed, such features become merely decorative.
tree68 rdamon Isn't the anti-climber supposed to reduce damage that the lead CSX unit suffered or is the P42 designed differently? I would opine that above a certain speed, such features become merely decorative.
+1
...they still help, but...
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
I didn't realize these emoticons were "alive." Apparently when I glanced at it, it wasn't winking!
I still think it helps to identify sarcasm. Example:
Everyone loves Dennis Rodman.
LithoniaOperatorI didn't realize these emoticons were "alive." Apparently when I glanced at it, it wasn't winking! I still think it helps to identify sarcasm. Example: Everyone loves Dennis Rodman.
Nuance is lost around here! State it clearly or not at all!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD LithoniaOperator I didn't realize these emoticons were "alive." Apparently when I glanced at it, it wasn't winking! I still think it helps to identify sarcasm. Example: Everyone loves Dennis Rodman. Nuance is lost around here! State it clearly or not at all!
LithoniaOperator I didn't realize these emoticons were "alive." Apparently when I glanced at it, it wasn't winking! I still think it helps to identify sarcasm. Example: Everyone loves Dennis Rodman.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
BaltACD Switches in signalled territory where trains (rule book definition) may CLEAR the Main track and the Main Track speed is designated to be above 20 MPH must be Electric Lock Switches per FRA rules. If a train is placed in a track without a Electric Lock switch, then the Dispatcher must issue a Speed Restriction of 20 MPH at that switch. NOW - if that is in fact a normal manual switch, was the Dispatcher informed that locomotives were a part of what was shoved off into the 'siding' thus creating a train. The audio tapes will tell the tale.
Switches in signalled territory where trains (rule book definition) may CLEAR the Main track and the Main Track speed is designated to be above 20 MPH must be Electric Lock Switches per FRA rules. If a train is placed in a track without a Electric Lock switch, then the Dispatcher must issue a Speed Restriction of 20 MPH at that switch.
NOW - if that is in fact a normal manual switch, was the Dispatcher informed that locomotives were a part of what was shoved off into the 'siding' thus creating a train.
The audio tapes will tell the tale.
Or equipped with a signal governing entrance to the main track over the hand throw switch. We commonly call this a "leaving signal." UP seems to have come to favor them over electric locks at hand throws where a train or engine might have to clear up.
Jeff
oltmannd tree68 rdamon Isn't the anti-climber supposed to reduce damage that the lead CSX unit suffered or is the P42 designed differently? I would opine that above a certain speed, such features become merely decorative. +1 ...they still help, but...
The anti-climber is meant to prevent an engine from 'telescoping' the other train in a head-on. The anticlimber in a head-on like this is supposed to prevent one engine from 'climbing' over the other; to momentarily 'lock' the two engines until one is deflected to the side - which looks like may have happened here, since the Amtrak engine ended up on it's left side. An engine hitting a sitting train at an estimated 50-55 MPH is going to cause damage, but that doesn't mean the anticlimbers didn't keep it from being even worse.
Overmod oltmannd Or, perhaps that train was put there before the signal suspension, so no record of switch thrown and locked was needed? Don, you're stretching it too far. Remember that Balt said the suspension he knew about was the previous day. I doubt that train had been sitting there unattended with the switch lined wrong and locked for that length of time. Do you really think so, either?
oltmannd Or, perhaps that train was put there before the signal suspension, so no record of switch thrown and locked was needed?
I read a news report today that the signal suspension was still in effect. That supposedly from a conference call with an Amtrak official.
Deggesty LithoniaOperator https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/05/us/positive-train-control-explainer/index.html Is it accurate that, according to an NTSB official, PTC would have prevented this accident? Does PTC detect switches aligned the wrong way? (Particularly during a signal supension.) Say the siding was empty: would PTC slow a train knowing that no one would ever intend to enter a siding that fast? Would any switch aligned from a main to a siding always trigger PTC actions? Does PTC "know" that (in this case) a train is in that siding? Etc. Etc. Yes, had the PTC installation been complete and in service, there would have been a signal showing STOP. However, two things combined to make the collision possible: the installation was in process, necessitating the temporary inoperation of the signal system, and (far worse) the failure of an employee to realign the switch--MAN FAILURE.
LithoniaOperator https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/05/us/positive-train-control-explainer/index.html Is it accurate that, according to an NTSB official, PTC would have prevented this accident? Does PTC detect switches aligned the wrong way? (Particularly during a signal supension.) Say the siding was empty: would PTC slow a train knowing that no one would ever intend to enter a siding that fast? Would any switch aligned from a main to a siding always trigger PTC actions? Does PTC "know" that (in this case) a train is in that siding? Etc. Etc.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/05/us/positive-train-control-explainer/index.html
Is it accurate that, according to an NTSB official, PTC would have prevented this accident? Does PTC detect switches aligned the wrong way? (Particularly during a signal supension.) Say the siding was empty: would PTC slow a train knowing that no one would ever intend to enter a siding that fast? Would any switch aligned from a main to a siding always trigger PTC actions? Does PTC "know" that (in this case) a train is in that siding? Etc. Etc.
Yes, had the PTC installation been complete and in service, there would have been a signal showing STOP. However, two things combined to make the collision possible: the installation was in process, necessitating the temporary inoperation of the signal system, and (far worse) the failure of an employee to realign the switch--MAN FAILURE.
One could only hope.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RAB1306.pdf
Currently, hand throw switches themselves aren't in direct communication with PTC in signalled territory, but they are tied into the block system. If the signal systems detects an occupancy in a block protected by non-absolute signals, PTC will allow entrance at restricted speed. If there are switches in the block, PTC knows where they are at, but doesn't know their position. It will prompt the engineer on the screen to confirm which way the switch is aligned.
In a signal suspension, PTC really won't know much of anything. I'm guessing to go through a signal suspension, PTC will have to be put in a "soft cut-out" state. It temporarily removes enforcement and disengages the system. (It's also done when making switching moves such as picking up or setting out cars.)
Mind that this is the current state of PTC. As PTC evolves, things could change.
The best count of injuries has apparently ~ 0nly 20 passengeers were not injured. A detailed study why they were not injured will probably be included in the accident report. That is often the case from investigated air accidents.
maybe a few items. Backward facing seats, some heard emergency brakes and grabbed hold , bedroom persons up against bulkhead, etc ?
BaltACDNuance is lost around here! State it clearly or not at all!
I think I'll continue to express myself as I see fit.
And I am more than happy if others express themselves as they see fit.
Murphy SidingAre you serious, or are you just being sarcastic? (Sorry man- the made me do it.)
(Sorry man- the made me do it.)
I'm serious. I love Dennis Rodman. Everyone does.
LithoniaOperator Murphy Siding Are you serious, or are you just being sarcastic? (Sorry man- the made me do it.) I'm serious. I love Dennis Rodman. Everyone does.
Murphy Siding Are you serious, or are you just being sarcastic? (Sorry man- the made me do it.)
North Korea does!
BaltACDNorth Korea does!
Dennis who?
Since this is CTC territory, reporting hand throw switch position and or required FRA form(s) are quite likely not second nature to the crew members. What may well come out is CSX has gone through a gigantic shakeup from the late EEH, including brand new non railroad background managers, etc. Events like this are most often the result of several missteps coming together at the wrong time. The results are tragic. Lets hope lessons are quickly learned and no more of this occurs during the rest of the nationwide PTC construction and rollout.
jeffhergert Deggesty LithoniaOperator https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/05/us/positive-train-control-explainer/index.html Is it accurate that, according to an NTSB official, PTC would have prevented this accident? Does PTC detect switches aligned the wrong way? (Particularly during a signal supension.) Say the siding was empty: would PTC slow a train knowing that no one would ever intend to enter a siding that fast? Would any switch aligned from a main to a siding always trigger PTC actions? Does PTC "know" that (in this case) a train is in that siding? Etc. Etc. Yes, had the PTC installation been complete and in service, there would have been a signal showing STOP. However, two things combined to make the collision possible: the installation was in process, necessitating the temporary inoperation of the signal system, and (far worse) the failure of an employee to realign the switch--MAN FAILURE. One could only hope. https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RAB1306.pdf Currently, hand throw switches themselves aren't in direct communication with PTC in signalled territory, but they are tied into the block system. If the signal systems detects an occupancy in a block protected by non-absolute signals, PTC will allow entrance at restricted speed. If there are switches in the block, PTC knows where they are at, but doesn't know their position. It will prompt the engineer on the screen to confirm which way the switch is aligned. In a signal suspension, PTC really won't know much of anything. I'm guessing to go through a signal suspension, PTC will have to be put in a "soft cut-out" state. It temporarily removes enforcement and disengages the system. (It's also done when making switching moves such as picking up or setting out cars.) Mind that this is the current state of PTC. As PTC evolves, things could change. Jeff
As I recall, years ago when you came upon a permissive red block you stopped and waited five minutes and then proceeded at restricted speed. Do you still have to wait, or may you proceed after coming to a full stop?
Johnny
LithoniaOperator AP story says: One car in the middle of the Amtrak train was snapped in half, forming a V off to one side of the tracks. I don’t think that is true. I‘m pretty sure a pair of cars jackknifed.
AP story says:
One car in the middle of the Amtrak train was snapped in half, forming a V off to one side of the tracks.
I don’t think that is true. I‘m pretty sure a pair of cars jackknifed.
Interesting article about the deceased Amtrak engineer worrying about wreck. God rest his soul.
https://wtop.com/national/2018/02/mom-fatal-train-crash-engineer-worried-after-earlier-wreck/
Deggesty AsI recall, years ago when you came upon a permissive red block you stopped and waited five minutes and then proceeded at restricted speed. Do you still have to wait, or may you proceed after coming to a full stop?
AsI recall, years ago when you came upon a permissive red block you stopped and waited five minutes and then proceeded at restricted speed. Do you still have to wait, or may you proceed after coming to a full stop?
If you go back far enough (rule book wise) you'll find a flagman had to proceed a train or engine to the next signal at a permissive red signal. Most of the rule books that I have from about the 40s or 50s until the GCOR no longer required the 5 minute wait. Signals, then as now, can be highly railroad specific. Some may require things others didn't at specific signals.
When I hired out, we still had Stop and Proceed signals, a red signal with a number plate. You had to stop and then you could immediately proceed at restricted speed through the block. For a few years now, a red signal with a number plate is now a Restricted Proceed. You may pass the signal without stopping and continue through the block at restricted speed.
It seems for a while, the Restricted Proceed (or it's equivalent) seemed to become in vogue on railroads. Then some went back to Stop and Proceed. I'm thinking some of the western carriers about the last 30 years. This from rule books and time tables I've acquired over the years. While I'm not adverse to railroading east of the Mississippi, most of the material I come across usually is midwest to western in nature.
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