If the freight train pulled through that crossover and failed to re-line the switch off of the main line, would they have left the wrongly lined switch locked?
Euclid If the freight train pulled through that crossover and failed to re-line the switch off of the main line, would they have left the wrongly lined switch locked?
That appears to be what happened. But why?
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
ruderunner Euclid If the freight train pulled through that crossover and failed to re-line the switch off of the main line, would they have left the wrongly lined switch locked? That appears to be what happened. But why?
I don't know. I am just wondering if there is some reason or requirement to lock the switch when using it for the crossover move. What scenario would have the switch lined off of the mainline and into the crossover with the switch locked?
In terms of deceleration, might I add that the Amtrak P42DC is by far the heaviest thing on Amtrak #91, and therefore has the most momentum and energy to dissipate. Lifting it 20' over a CW44AC takes a LOT of energy. Consider me part of the "unfortunate airbag" thesis here, wherein the P42 was an unfortunate sacraficial airbag for the rest of the train.
Unfortunately, it was nowhere near survival. The photos hurt like hell to look at. Thankfully there was no crew aboard the CSX power, or they'd be gone as well.
I think there will soon be major discussions about Signal Suspension prototcol in Washington and railroad headquarters around the country. While it may be no riskier in theory than in normal unsignalled territory, perhaps additional safeguards are needed to protect against misaligned turnouts during signal suspensions, and perhaps, elsewhere as well.
BaltACD I might add - ALL radio communications by Train Dispatchers are recorded - radio, telephone - it don't matter. ALL. The CSX crew, the Amtrak crew both would have communicated via radio, most likely. The Amtrak Conductor was on the lead locomotive because the sole occupant of the locomotive is not allowed to recieve and/or repeat verbal mandatory directives - UNLESS the train is stopped. The Track Warrants to operate through a signal suspension are Mandatory Directives as defined in the Rule Book.
I might add - ALL radio communications by Train Dispatchers are recorded - radio, telephone - it don't matter. ALL. The CSX crew, the Amtrak crew both would have communicated via radio, most likely.
The Amtrak Conductor was on the lead locomotive because the sole occupant of the locomotive is not allowed to recieve and/or repeat verbal mandatory directives - UNLESS the train is stopped. The Track Warrants to operate through a signal suspension are Mandatory Directives as defined in the Rule Book.
Johnny
Euclid My first impression was that impact speed was maybe around 30 mph.
My first impression was that impact speed was maybe around 30 mph.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Euclid I am just wondering if there is some reason or requirement to lock the switch when using it for the crossover move. What scenario would have the switch lined off of the mainline and into the crossover with the switch locked?
It's not a crossover switch. It is simply the switch into that siding.
If we're talking a two person crew (as I suspect we are) and there was no one else to handle the switch, then the conductor locked the switch while he/she rode the point of the push move into the siding. I've done that a number of times.
This is especially true if the lock isn't somehow secured to the switch stand (as in, with a chain). You have to relock it somewhere (you can't take your key out if the hasp is open), it might as well be where it secures the switchstand.
Pure conjecture on my part - neither crew member remembered to go back and re-line the switch. If the territory was temporarily dark, the dispatcher likely would not see it still reversed on the model board.
This does beg the question as to whether or not the crew signed the SPAF, and if the dispatcher queried them on it. Unless a SPAF is not required there. If CSX runs there like they do in this area, and if the territory was, indeed, dark, then they would have gotten a line 11 on their EC1 (track warrant) to use the switch, and when they cleared the EC1, the dispatcher would have asked about the switch.
The satellite image has too many shadows to tell much about the switch itself.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
knock it off murphM. Some of your cohorts think the same thing.
Good Photo of the switch ..
https://nypost.com/2018/02/04/feds-investigating-why-amtrak-switch-was-set-in-wrong-position/
That's a damn good photo.
Looks like a manual throw switch. It surely does look like the CSX crew screwed up bigtime.
I wonder what they were doing away from their locomotive. Aside from surviving.
Is it really such a challenge to remember to re-line the switch to the main?
Ed
tree68 Euclid I am just wondering if there is some reason or requirement to lock the switch when using it for the crossover move. What scenario would have the switch lined off of the mainline and into the crossover with the switch locked? It's not a crossover switch. It is simply the switch into that siding. If we're talking a two person crew (as I suspect we are) and there was no one else to handle the switch, then the conductor locked the switch while he/she rode the point of the push move into the siding. I've done that a number of times. This is especially true if the lock isn't somehow secured to the switch stand (as in, with a chain). You have to relock it somewhere (you can't take your key out if the hasp is open), it might as well be where it secures the switchstand. Pure conjecture on my part - neither crew member remembered to go back and re-line the switch. If the territory was temporarily dark, the dispatcher likely would not see it still reversed on the model board. This does beg the question as to whether or not the crew signed the SPAF, and if the dispatcher queried them on it. Unless a SPAF is not required there. If CSX runs there like they do in this area, and if the territory was, indeed, dark, then they would have gotten a line 11 on their EC1 (track warrant) to use the switch, and when they cleared the EC1, the dispatcher would have asked about the switch. The satellite image has too many shadows to tell much about the switch itself.
How long had the signals been suspended?Is this only a manual thrown switch? (looks like it in photo).
Simple question, but one I do not know answer to. If you are making reverse move into a manual switch, would you lock the switch? Or just leave it unlocked during reverse move?
Finally would all the upheaval in CSX management have anything resulting in lax rules?Ed
DeggestyLarry, I have a question: how long has it been necessary to lock the switch before you can take your key out of the lock?
It's that you have to lock the lock before you can take your key out of it ... and there is no convenient place to hook the lock to hold the switch handle assuredly closed without putting it through the locking eyes. So either you leave the thing hanging unlocked (with your key stuck in it) while you trudge back from the point of the push move to line the switch appropriately, or you lock it, keep your key in your possession, and ensure the switch can't move under a train ... as it very well might if the handle is not secured down.
As happens, I was just reading about the Canadian accident in Stewiacke, Nova Scotia in 2001 that was caused by kids bashing off a switch lock as vandalism or a souvenir. The points shifted under the train and directed the diner, a dome, and other cars straight through a #10 turnout into buildings at near track speed (it was track speed until an air line parted between the 5th and 6th cars during the collisions with 'terrain'). This was clearly stated as a failure to keep the handle fully locked down, because there was no locking shackle through its eye. So I'd think it makes sense to presume the lock shackle would need to be inserted through the eye, locked or not, before the shove could be made safely, and that rules govern whether or not crew can leave a switch lock open with key inserted unattended -- I would think not.
MP173How long had the signals been suspended? Is this only a manual thrown switch? (looks like it in photo). Simple question, but one I do not know answer to. If you are making reverse move into a manual switch, would you lock the switch? Or just leave it unlocked during reverse move? Finally would all the upheaval in CSX management have anything resulting in lax rules?Ed
Is this only a manual thrown switch? (looks like it in photo).
In my experience - Signal Suspensions were normaly weekend affairs. Start at 8 AM on Saturday and end when the work has been completed and tested to the Signal Departments satisfaction. The was normally Sunday afternoon or evening - sometimes the work would extend to Monday.
I don't know the track layout at this location.
Considering the world we live in these days, locking the switch for every use would be the safe course.
I don't know how all the upheaval of CSX Management and the uncertanity it that comes from a mass of new managers can help promote safe operations.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
However, it makes absolutely no difference if the switch was locked or not. Sadly, it was lined for the siding!
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As Overmod points out, it's a function of not being able to remove your key.
If I'm remaining at a switch for the movement, I'll just hang the open lock in the switchstand with the key in the lock. For low speed movements, the likelihood of a switch changing on it's own are slim, but I always secure it anyhow. For more dynamic (higher speed) movements, I wouldn't be so confident about leaving the lock out.
And I'm not leaving my keys in the lock unless I'm right there.
Even yard switches usually have latches, or someone sticks a spike in the locking mechanism.
ruderunner knock it off murphM. Some of your cohorts think the same thing.
And the reason for locking the switch against the main and walking away to join your co-worker(s) would be........?
AP story says:
One car in the middle of the Amtrak train was snapped in half, forming a V off to one side of the tracks.
I don’t think that is true. I‘m pretty sure a pair of cars jackknifed.
Still in training.
7j43k And the reason for locking the switch against the main and walking away to join your co-worker(s) would be........? Ed
He forgot. It’s a terrible tragedy and a colossal eff-up.
7j43kAnd the reason for locking the switch against the main and walking away to join your co-worker(s) would be........?
That's not what I understood as happening. The CSX train shoved back through the switch, which was probably 'locked' by the person then riding the point of the shove. Riding it a long way back, to where the rear of the cut would be when the power cleared. The 'question' is why someone on the head end, before leaving the train, did not go up, unlock the switch in question, line it for the main, and relock it.
And I submit that it makes a great deal of difference that the switch was locked, because it would have had to be locked 'for the siding' for the CSX train to safely shove through it in the first place, and therefore was left that way when 'someone' should have unlocked it, lined it for the main, and then relocked it.
One so-far-missing detail was, since no one was (fortunately!) on the CSX power anywhere around the time of impact, how long had the crew on the front end been absent ... without doing the unlocking, relining, and relocking required of them to 'clear' for 91?
In my opinion, all facing point switches in TWC territory should be approached prepared to stop. That's my plan from now on.
Observations. Picture of switch partially shows the yellow handle that is now used for manual switches.
Is the picture of loco 47 showing the undercarriage of that loco to the east side of 47? If so that probably will leave 47 only for parts ?
Guess the the compression of 1st Amfleet - 2 total it also ?
The jack knife in the middle of the train; is it a lounge that split in half or two separate cars ?
Two more V-1 sleepers out to rebuild ?
Question for BALT.
By the rules would the CSX conductor after aligning the switch had to secure the switch lock ? Then for the backing of the empty car carriers had to ride the back car till storage movement stopped ?
Then conductor walk forward securing the proper number of car hand brakes while engineer secured locos ? How many car hand brakes properly applied will certainly come out.
Then would one or the other of CSX crew supposed to walk forward to secure siding switch to the mainline ? Was derail installed on this siding ?
Then would one crewman report to dispatcher releasing track warrant or DTC to dispatcher ?
Another question some what related is how and where were each of the CSX crew picked by limo ?
Also was HOS involved in any way either present duty time or next time ?
edit overmod see you just beat us with some of your questions.
Wonder what the normal max speed of the siding switch ( Probably 20 MPH ? ) and what was 91's speed at that switch ?
Any high security switch lock I ever saw before retirement a decade ago would not allow key to be removed unless the hasp was closed (locked). Leaving your key in an unattended unlocked switch lock was not an option considered by anyone I ever worked with. Each high security key is numbered so it can be found out who it was assigned to.
OvermodAnd I submit that it makes a great deal of difference that the switch was locked, because it would have had to be locked 'for the siding' for the CSX train to safely shove through it in the first place,
and therefore was left that way when 'someone' should have unlocked it, lined it for the main, and then relocked it.
blue streak 1Wonder what the normal max speed of the siding switch ( Probably 20 MPH ? ) and what was 91's speed at that switch ?
Upon this will hang quite a bit of the early accident investigation.
Here is what I see so far; it will probably change, perhaps radically and quickly, when we get more hard information.
91 was 20 minutes late, under restrictions that would make it later even running at permissible speed. So I have little doubt that it was running a full 59mph right up to the point that the crew detected the misaligned switch -- for which they would not be explicitly watching or reasonably expecting, if I understand how the CSX signal interruption procedures are supposed to work.
The location is on a curve, so the switch would not even come into view until comparatively close approach, with the engineer's view the most compromised due to the curve direction. Even with human reaction time short, I see very little time for brake application before the train encountered the switch. Assuming the event recorder has recoverable data -- something I am by no means confident of -- we will learn from the telemetry what kind of braking applications were made prior to contact.
The thing I don't know is how far the first mislined switch was from the head of the CSX train. It does not at present appear to be more than a couple of seconds' time at train speed. The compression artifact in the lead Amfleet coach is not the result of emergency braking, blended or otherwise: it is the result of a hard axial shock. The lateral distortion in the track, I think, is consistent with the rest of the train similarly encountering very prompt shock deceleration.
Note following EDIT:
[What I have not seen discussed yet is whether 91 actually derailed on the switch and consequently did not 'quite' meet the CSX power fully head-on. Still a very fast deceleration, but more to one side, perhaps with the forward end of the locomotive lifting as the nose folded down and perhaps to the right in the collision. At this point in time, I find the attitude of the first car at least consistent with this.]
Upon further reflection I retract the supposition that the engine derailed. The switch location is too 'far back', and too much of the following consist stayed on the rails, for the engine to stay likely upright for that distance 'derailed'; it's much more likely that it and the first car deviated to their present position after an essentially head-on initial collision.
I have some dread about the NTSB releasing any of the 'raw' in-cab audio or video to the media, if the data survived, to "explain" the timeline and crew reaction. I would expect some of it to much better remain private.
Deggesty tree68 Euclid I am just wondering if there is some reason or requirement to lock the switch when using it for the crossover move. What scenario would have the switch lined off of the mainline and into the crossover with the switch locked? It's not a crossover switch. It is simply the switch into that siding. If we're talking a two person crew (as I suspect we are) and there was no one else to handle the switch, then the conductor locked the switch while he/she rode the point of the push move into the siding. I've done that a number of times. This is especially true if the lock isn't somehow secured to the switch stand (as in, with a chain). You have to relock it somewhere (you can't take your key out if the hasp is open), it might as well be where it secures the switchstand. Pure conjecture on my part - neither crew member remembered to go back and re-line the switch. If the territory was temporarily dark, the dispatcher likely would not see it still reversed on the model board. This does beg the question as to whether or not the crew signed the SPAF, and if the dispatcher queried them on it. Unless a SPAF is not required there. If CSX runs there like they do in this area, and if the territory was, indeed, dark, then they would have gotten a line 11 on their EC1 (track warrant) to use the switch, and when they cleared the EC1, the dispatcher would have asked about the switch. The satellite image has too many shadows to tell much about the switch itself. Larry, I have a question: how long has it been necessary to lock the switch before you can take your key out of the lock? I will admit that it is going on more than fifty-three years since I had anything to do with a switch lock--and that was one night when I expedited a freight that had had to back over to the wrong main to get out of the way of a fast passenger train. When I offered to line crossover switches back once the freight was on the right main, the conductor took me up, told the fireman as the engine backed by us, boarded the caboose (along with the rear end brakeman) as the caboose passed us, and shone his light on my work until I had the locks secured--all without my having a key.
Larry, I have a question: how long has it been necessary to lock the switch before you can take your key out of the lock? I will admit that it is going on more than fifty-three years since I had anything to do with a switch lock--and that was one night when I expedited a freight that had had to back over to the wrong main to get out of the way of a fast passenger train. When I offered to line crossover switches back once the freight was on the right main, the conductor took me up, told the fireman as the engine backed by us, boarded the caboose (along with the rear end brakeman) as the caboose passed us, and shone his light on my work until I had the locks secured--all without my having a key.
23 17 46 11
From what is being said if it was a switch misaligned CSX better reach deep into their pockets. They also better bend WAY and I mean WAY over as the FRA STB hell every alphabet agency in the US Government is going to be looking long and hard at them for a very long time on this one. The crew of that CSX train better be ready also.
blue streak 1The jack knife in the middle of the train; is it a lounge that split in half or two separate cars ?
Based on what I can see in the drone video, the car bent in the middle.
On the speed through the switch - diverging (going onto the siding) would be a slow speed move. If the track normally handles Amtrak (as it appears it does), I would opine that in the "normal" position the switch is good for track speed.
Based on what I saw in the original clips, it's an Amfleet shell that is broken in the middle. I don't see enough visible length with that V angle for it to be two jackknifed cars. I thought it reflected a potential failure mode following a shock buckle similar to what is observed on the leading car followed by substantial run-in from the rear of the train.
But I'm waiting for more detailed on-the-ground reports and photography to confirm or disprove whether it's a break or a jackknife. Has anyone counted the visible cars in the various views and compared it against what was in 91's consist for the day? That would establish rather quickly what is there...
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