Just some observations, to quell any "why didn't they slow down much" seeing as how the reported speed of impact was 59mph, track speed.
From the point-of-switch to impact was about 500', and 60mph is 88fps. That means the Amtrak crew had about 5 seconds of reaction time, let alone time for the brakes to actually setup.
Terrible...just terrible.
It think this will likely put some focus onto Signal Suspension rules. Engineers will probably also be looking at Amfleet structural integrity, seeing as how one is ripped clean in half farther back in the train.
59MPH seems a little fast to be taking the diverging route on that switch seen at 24 sec in the drone video.
The drone video shows horrific damage to the front of the AMTK engine.
Still in training.
Electroliner 1935Near as I can determine this is where it occurred.
Actually, no. Based especially on the drone footage of the scene, the location was definitely here: 33.90859 -81.06724. The area appears to be known as Dixiana, and is several miles south of Cayce.
The location is adjacent to an auto handling facility, which would explain the autoracks in the images from the scene. I have no idea if they load or unload there, not that it matters.
I was having trouble finding a location that matched what I was seeing as well. A search on the net did yield a map that gave the location better. I don't know when that was put up.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Jeff, thanks for the explanation of Signal Suspension.
Signals or not, wouldn't this come down to a CSX dispatching error? Or is it possible that the CSX crew was supposed to have manually lined a switch for the Amtrak train and failed to do so? (This seems unlikely to me.) Maybe they were switching the auto-rack facility, backed in, and forgot to line the switch for the main. With the signals out, this could have gone unnoticed. ???
AP says AMTK engineer and conductor died:
https://apnews.com/7478c3e4083e47ca905f8ca46fc5dc20/2-Amtrak-workers-killed,-116-hurt-in-South-Carolina-crash
Very sad.
From NBC:
"The Amtrak train, according to sources, was given verbal approval by CSX dispatch to proceed down a set of tracks. But the switch on those tracks was on the wrong position, sending the Amtrak train into a CSX train which was sitting still, pulled off to the side."
Saturnalia Just some observations, to quell any "why didn't they slow down much" seeing as how the reported speed of impact was 59mph, track speed. From the point-of-switch to impact was about 500', and 60mph is 88fps. That means the Amtrak crew had about 5 seconds of reaction time, let alone time for the brakes to actually setup. Terrible...just terrible. It think this will likely put some focus onto Signal Suspension rules. Engineers will probably also be looking at Amfleet structural integrity, seeing as how one is ripped clean in half farther back in the train.
What is the method of operation? I'm guessing CTC, but with a 59mph speed limit, it makes me think non-signalled TWC (or CSX's equivalent) operation. That and I'm not seeing any signals, although if the tracks involved aren't sidings (under the rules) they may be hand throw and not part of the CTC. 59mph could also be because of a signal suspension. Balt said he heard of one in the area the previous day but it is unknown if it was still in effect.
It's kind of obvious that a switch wasn't normal. If there was an active signal system, it should have provided warning to trains on the main track. If no signals or they were suspended, there would be no advance warning. (Or it might work as intended and set signals but in a suspension they wouldn't be respected.) We also have the possibility, depending on where and what work to signals was being done, the system gave a false clear. That's happened before.
Getting back to the switch, why was it open? Did a freight crew forget to line it back? Any crew using a main track switch must report switches restored normal after use. In non signalled territory a record of usage must be made. Was the last to use the switch instructed by the dispatcher to leave it open? If instructed by the dispatcher to do so, then the dispatcher must protect the open switch. (The CSX train struck may not have been the last to use it. It could've been a preceeding train that left it open. With or without permission.) If it was known and protected (meaning the Amtrak crew had been instructed to expect to find it open) then it's possible they forgot it.
It's possible someone tampered with the switch. That's happened before, too. Although I'm not expecting this to be the case.
Jeff
SaturnaliaJust some observations, to quell any "why didn't they slow down much" seeing as how the reported speed of impact was 59mph, track speed.
.
An impact speed of 59 mph was reported in a news story. I would not be surprised if it is actually the speed limit. What is the speed limit at that location for the Amtrak train?
EuclidAn impact speed of 59 mph was reported in a news story. I would not be surprised if it is actually the speed limit. What is the speed limit at that location for the Amtrak train?
Maximum permitted speed for a passenger train in Unsignalled Territory is 59 MPH. Maximum permitted speed for a freight train in Unsignalled Territory is 49 MPH.
Both those limits are allowed if the track structure is maintained for those limits, ie. if track is restricted to 30 MPH for its own reasons, 30 MPH is the maximum speed for any train.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
This line had CTC years ago. In 1954, it had approach-lit signals (my mother boarded the Palmland in Camden in the summer of 1954, going up to Virginia. While waiting for the train, I looked down the track, expecting to see a lit signal--and was disappointed because nothing was lit.
If it is being operated with signal suspension, would it not be considered dark territory--and thus have speed limits of 59 mph and 49 mph?
Johnny
BigJim Saturnalia Just some observations, to quell any "why didn't they slow down much" seeing as how the reported speed of impact was 59mph, track speed. Has it actually been substantiated that the collision speed was indeed 59 mph or is everyone just repeating what the speed limit is in this area? Because, from what I am seeing, the moving AMTRAK train stopped within an engine length. Looking at the non-existent damage to the standing train behind the lead CSX unit, the minor amount of jack-knifing of the AMTRAK cars and the short distance of stopping, I would say that the collision speed was much less than 59 mph. Although I do have some suspictions, I will politely abstain from any further speculation at this time.
Saturnalia Just some observations, to quell any "why didn't they slow down much" seeing as how the reported speed of impact was 59mph, track speed.
Has it actually been substantiated that the collision speed was indeed 59 mph or is everyone just repeating what the speed limit is in this area? Because, from what I am seeing, the moving AMTRAK train stopped within an engine length. Looking at the non-existent damage to the standing train behind the lead CSX unit, the minor amount of jack-knifing of the AMTRAK cars and the short distance of stopping, I would say that the collision speed was much less than 59 mph. Although I do have some suspictions, I will politely abstain from any further speculation at this time.
Bigjim, after casual viewing of the limited photos so far, i think the rate of deceleration is less than normal. It seems that the Amtrak locomotive ran up over the top of the leading CSX unit giving a cushioning effect to the rest of the train. Sort of like an airbag.
I do have a couple questions about some of the photos. In one where the NTSB yellow jackets are prominent, it looks like the lead truck of the Amtrak locomotive is on the ground almost directly in front of the csx unit. Is that correct?
Second question is referring to the buckle in the second car of the Amtrak train, is the buckle worse across the roof than floor level? Did the car get bent vertically as the locomotive ran up?
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
also rather curious as to how the Amtrak locomotive ended up going over the csx unit? Was it partially airborne on impact?
What happens when you hit a derail at 60 mph?
DeggestyThis line had CTC years ago. In 1954, it had approach-lit signals (my mother boarded the Palmland in Camden in the summer of 1954, going up to Virginia. While waiting for the train, I looked down the track, expecting to see a lit signal--and was disappointed because nothing was lit. If it is being operated with signal suspension, would it not be considered dark territory--and thus have speed limits of 59 mph and 49 mph?
To my knowledge, the territory is still operated with CTC today, however, the change over to the signal system handling PTC requires the replacement of both wayside signals and the electronics that support the signals and PTC.
The replacement is done with Signal Rules being suspended between specific points. Within the limits of the Suspension trains are handled on Track Warrant Authority with the limits of the Suspension being defined by a Superintendents Bulletin specifying the limits and the authorities needed to traverse the suspended territory. Where necessary, Switchtenders (in the pre-EHH days) would be stationed to handle any switches required for movement. I have no knowledge if Switchtenders were required or used for this Signal Suspension.
I have no knowledge of who handled the switch that put Amtrak on the track that the CSX train occupied.
This picture from behind the Amtrak train gives evidence of the forces the train applied to the track structure at the time of impact. Notice the Kink,
Shades of NS Graniteville, SC. Ugh... All the new rules in place about recording and verifying switch position in dark territory...
So, if signal suspension to install PTC... this could be a PTC caused collision?
In ABS territory, approaching facing point switch (without circuit controller) while running against the current meant resticting speed, no? Wonder why similar not in place when running during signal suspension.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
The following linked article has just been noted o Druge report: @ https://www.yahoo.com/news/latest-2-killed-south-carolina-crash-amtrak-train-131506605.html
"The Latest: Switch in wrong position key to train crash"
He says the freight train crew took the CSX train from one side track across the main line and back to another side track after unloading automobiles..."
and then there is this comment from same article:"...3:15 p.m.
Amtrak President Richard Anderson says the signal system run by a private railroad was down when one of his passenger trains slammed into the rear of a parked freight train carrying automobiles on a side track in South Carolina, killing two workers.
Anderson said dispatchers at CSX were manually routing trains around 2:45 a.m. Sunday. He says he would defer to National Transportation Safety Board investigators to determine what role that played in the wreck that also sent 116 people to the hospital, most with minor injuries..."
samfp1943 Amtrak President Richard Anderson says the signal system run by a private railroad was down when one of his passenger trains slammed into the rear of a parked freight train carrying automobiles on a side track in South Carolina, killing two workers.
Wow, ANOTHER Amtrak wreck. But a rear-ender.
The one WE'RE looking at surely looks like a head-on to me.
But, then, I'm not a professional in charge of a large railroad organization. So I could be wrong.
Ed
EuclidAn impact speed of 59 mph was reported in a news story.
Viewing the following video, I stand by my suspicions that the train was going much slower than 59mph. Note that the front of the locomotive only travelled about 100 feet after the collision. It is hard to tell if that is only two cars that have jack-knifed or actually one car that is folded in half. And again, other than the lead CSX locomotive, there appears to be no damage to the rest of the train.[ur]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp36W9L741E&feature=youtu.be[/url]
I think the AMTRAK engineer saw what was about to happen and put the train in emergency, slowing the train down somewhat.
He was moving right along....
RS
for lack of any other information...
That said, the entire front 10-15 feet of the Amtrak locomotive is... Missing. Cab, front truck, etc. You can see the (I think) dynamic brake module impacted out of the carbody. The front truck is seen sitting on the ground in front of the CSX locomotives.
The second car is buckled and track is clearly out of place, quite a ways back from the rear of the train (Balts pic)
The jackknifed cars are indeed two cars off into trees. Chicago Tribune has a good photo of them.
There's no telling right now how far the CSX train moved on impact. Maybe just bunched up the slack in the auto racks couplers?
BigJimEuclidAn impact speed of 59 mph was reported in a news story.And you would believe a preliminary NEWS reporter!
I did not certify it to be true. I just offered it as having been reported. That's a fact.
My first impression was that impact speed was maybe around 30 mph.
7j43k samfp1943 Amtrak President Richard Anderson says the signal system run by a private railroad was down when one of his passenger trains slammed into the rear of a parked freight train carrying automobiles on a side track in South Carolina, killing two workers. Wow, ANOTHER Amtrak wreck. But a rear-ender. The one WE'RE looking at surely looks like a head-on to me. But, then, I'm not a professional in charge of a large railroad organization. So I could be wrong. Ed
I’m assuming those CSX locomotives are DPU pushers, but I could be mistaken.
WDGF 7j43k samfp1943 Amtrak President Richard Anderson says the signal system run by a private railroad was down when one of his passenger trains slammed into the rear of a parked freight train carrying automobiles on a side track in South Carolina, killing two workers. Wow, ANOTHER Amtrak wreck. But a rear-ender. The one WE'RE looking at surely looks like a head-on to me. But, then, I'm not a professional in charge of a large railroad organization. So I could be wrong. Ed I’m assuming those CSX locomotives are DPU pushers, but I could be mistaken.
Mistaken you are.
Cayce Yard is a major automobile distrubution center for CSX. The train in the siding was a cut of empty auto racks that had been pulled from the yard and backed off in the siding, leaving the engines attached.
This incident has Graniteville, SC written all over it. Crew, after backing the train off, must have reported they were clear of the track segment, without restoring the switch for Main Track movement.
ruderunner also rather curious as to how the Amtrak locomotive ended up going over the csx unit? Was it partially airborne on impact? What happens when you hit a derail at 60 mph?
Looking at the extent of the damage to the CSX units, to say nothing of the Amtrak locomotive, is it possible the Amtrak unit cartwheeled after impact?
I'm no physicist, hey the only physics I know I learned in high school back in the Pleistocene Era, but I know all that kinetic energy in the locomotive had to dissipate somehow. So I hope the question isn't as foolish as it sounds.
oltmannd Shades of NS Graniteville, SC. Ugh... All the new rules in place about recording and verifying switch position in dark territory... So, if signal suspension to install PTC... this could be a PTC caused collision? In ABS territory, approaching facing point switch (without circuit controller) while running against the current meant resticting speed, no? Wonder why similar not in place when running during signal suspension.
No, except in yard limits. If authorized to run against the current of traffic where not signalled for both directions maximum speeds can be psgr 59mph, frt 49mph. Just like dark territory. Same with a signal suspension. Unless otherwise advised you would expect all main track switches to be lined for the main track.
All hand throw switches (and maybe hand operated derails) in signalled territory will have circuit controllers. (It's the small box you usually see between the rail and the switchstand. It makes sure the track circuit is shunted when the switch is opened.) Of course running against the current where not signalled for both directions or signals suspended means there is no signal protection.
BaltACDThis incident has Graniteville, SC written all over it. Crew, after backing the train off, must have reported they were clear of the track segment, without restoring the switch for Main Track movement.
That's what I've been thinking. The line is a single track main, with the siding the auto rack train was on on one side, and the siding used to access the distribution center on the other - hence the three tracks we see in the images.
The potential SNAFU by the crew of the train on the siding, possibly combined with the suspended signals, was a disaster in the making.
firelock, cartwheel? I doubt it, I'd expect much more damage to the Amtrak locomotive. Not to mention it's still more or less inline with the following cars.
I still expect we will find the CSX locomotives got pushed back in the impact, 1 million pouds of passenger train moving at speed hitting stationary 1 million pounds of locomotives means something moved.
I might add - ALL radio communications by Train Dispatchers are recorded - radio, telephone - it don't matter. ALL. The CSX crew, the Amtrak crew both would have communicated via radio, most likely.
The Amtrak Conductor was on the lead locomotive because the sole occupant of the locomotive is not allowed to recieve and/or repeat verbal mandatory directives - UNLESS the train is stopped. The Track Warrants to operate through a signal suspension are Mandatory Directives as defined in the Rule Book.
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