Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[Deggesty]

This is not in direct response to Bob's question, but does relate to the operation of the Crescent.

Since there were only four complete sets of lightweight equipment, and there was not much time to turn the train if it was late arriving in New Orleans even when it left at 11:00 pm, I wonder if the train that came in one day, except for the diner (they were changed out along the way, so the diner had to be turned the same day), went back north the next day. It seems to me that Pullman had a larger stock of replacement cars in New York than in New Orleans, so a train could be put together in New York to take the place of equipment that arrived too late to be turned.

By the way, Bob, welcome to the Trains and Classical Trains forums. It's always good to gain information from new members who are willing to share their knowledge with us all.

Southern Timetable 1/15/58: Crescent left NO at 11:00 pm, running as a separate train. Southern Timetable 5/11/58: Crescent is consolidated with Pan American from NO to Montgomery, leaving at 9:00 pm. At the same time, the southbound Pan American was consolidated with the Piedmont Limited from Montgomery to New Orleans. At one blow, the L&N eliminated a train between the two cities.

Johnny

[AWP290]

Al - You are correct in that the Southern's diners were stocked and crews changed in Atlanta.  The other two responses (West Point Route and L&N) are incorrect. 

I am speaking of the 1950-57 or '58 era as the situation changed a bit after that.

 

Bob Hanson

[passengerfan]

Since the diners of the Crescent operated through between New York and New Orleans my guess is the crews were domiciled according to the ownership of the particular diner. In the case of the L&N cars I would guess that to be New Orleans and they would make a round trip to New York and back. The Southern diners would probably have Atlanta based crews who would make a trip to New Orleans from Atlanta then to New York and back to Atlanta. Probably the A&WP crew would also be Atlanta based. If they operated like most roads the dining cars would be provisioned at terminals so in the case of the Crescent that would be New Orleans and New York. That is not to say that additional provisioning did not take place at Atlanta if necessary.

Al - in - Stockton 

[AWP290]

Okay, here goes:

The lightweight Crescent, trains 37 and 38 carried diners provided by the Southern, the Atlanta & West Point, and the Louisville & Nashville.  The question is - Where were these diners provisioned and the crews domiciled?  Remember, this is the post-1950 Crescent.

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

[Deggesty]

AWP290

The WofA's round-end ob was sold to Joseph B. Lanier of West Point, GA, and was later used as a VIP suite at a college in Panama City, FL.  It is currently (as far as I know) privately owned and is undergoing restoration in Orlando, FL.

 

Now - to answer the question, the L&N's cars (Royal Canal and Royal Street) were used on various Florida trains (notably the Gulf Wind and the Florida Special for quite a while, possibly up to 5-1-71.

 

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

Thanks, Bob. Now, it's your question. The cars were operated on the Gulf Wind into 1966; when I rode from Jacksonville to New Orleans in early spring 1967, they were gone.

Johnny

[AWP290]

The WofA's round-end ob was sold to Joseph B. Lanier of West Point, GA, and was later used as a VIP suite at a college in Panama City, FL.  It is currently (as far as I know) privately owned and is undergoing restoration in Orlando, FL.

 

Now - to answer the question, the L&N's cars (Royal Canal and Royal Street) were used on various Florida trains (notably the Gulf Wind and the Florida Special for quite a while, possibly up to 5-1-71.

 

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

Johnny, yes the Congressionals and the Senator. Your turn.

In 1950, new, lightweight, equipment was built for the Crescent. One type of car was 5 double bedroom, Buffet Lounge-Observation. The Southern owned one, the W of A owned one, and the L&N owned two. In 1958, these cars were withdrawn from the Crescent, and the Southern car was rebuilt to an eleven bedroom configuration. I have no information as to what was done with the W of A’s Car. How were the L&N’s two cars used, regularly, for about the next eight years?

[wanswheel]

Johnny, yes the Congressionals and the Senator. Your turn.

Here's a link to a photo showing the bar front.  Click the magnifier to 50%, then to 100%, and then click on the smaller version of the photo on the right where the red square is to select the area.

http://digital.hagley.org/u?/p268001coll4,7413

This link is to the Hagley Digital Archives advance search page. To see a Tuscan Purple GG1, the observation car George Washington and various car interior photos, type all of the words "Congressional" and click Search.

http://digital.hagley.org/cdm4/search.php?CISOROOT=/p268001coll4

Enlargement of the PRR ad:

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/images/adaccess/T/T31/T3106/T3106-lrg.jpeg

Mike

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

Al has the next question on the other thread so I'll ask a question on this thread.  Around 1952 the Budd Company built 64 cars to make 4 trainsets for 3 trains. The tavern lounge bar front on at least one of the trains was designed to resemble a Revolutionary War drum featuring a rattlesnake, similar to the Culpeper flag.  What railroad and what trains?

Mike

Mike I wish I had been able to ride either Congressional consist (each one made a round trip every day) or either of the two Senator consists when they were new. I do not recall any mention of the bar front in the Trains article about the new trains when the article was published.

Oh, yes, the cars were built for the Pennsylvania Railroad.

Just think of the cars each train had!

Each Congo (as they were often called), had 8 chair cars with 60 seats plus a 14 seat lounge, a lunch counter-tavern lounge car, a dining room car, a kitchen-bar lounge car (no dormitory space was needed on these trains), a 7 room conference parlor car that had a telephone room, 5 29-seat with drawing room parlor cars, and an 18-seat buffet lounge observation parlor car. How many cars does Amtrak operate on its New York-Washington trains?

Each Senator had the same coach accommodations, but different parlor acommodations: a 48-seat diner, 3 29-seat and drawing room parlor cars, and a 14-seat, telephone, buffet observation parlor car. Again, how many cars does Amtrak operate on its Boston-Washington trains. It is true that there are more through trains between Boston and Washington now--the New Haven and Pennsy had, at most, three through day trains.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

Al has the next question on the other thread so I'll ask a question on this thread.  Around 1952 the Budd Company built 64 cars to make 4 trainsets for 3 trains. The tavern lounge bar front on at least one of the trains was designed to resemble a Revolutionary War drum featuring a rattlesnake, similar to the Culpeper flag.  What railroad and what trains?

Mike

[daveklepper]

Not to claim the right to ask a question, but kangaroo was also represented.

Boy I wish those trains were still running today.   I ride from Chicago to Milwaukee in one, especially seated in the front seat opposite the engineers small subway-type cab, was sheer paradise.

But I loved the conventional trains as well, especially when a friendly engineer allowed one to stand on the front platform.

[Deggesty]

passengerfan

Johnny

Pink Elephant?

I remember riding the Electroliners for the last year they were in service on the North Shore and ate many a burger on them but could not remember those animals.

Al - in - Stockton 

Yes, pink elephants were what I had in mind. I, of course, never saw an Electroliner, much less was inside one, so I was glad to see the pictures Wanswheel posted. I have the memory of an article in Trains many years ago which had the comment that there were pink elephants on the wall--and this struck me as being an appropriate decoration.

Now, I was not as specific with my question as I perhaps should have been, so I suggest that you and Mike duke it out to see which one asks the next question.

Johnny

[passengerfan]

Johnny

Pink Elephant?

I remember riding the Electroliners for the last year they were in service on the North Shore and ate many a burger on them but could not remember those animals.

Al - in - Stockton 

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

Elephants, giraffes and monkeys?

Mike, I was thinking of one particular animal that is associated with repeated visits to the bar.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

Elephants, giraffes and monkeys?

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/cnsm801.jpg

[wanswheel]

Well it's difficult enough. Salt, magnesium chloride, potash (potassium chloride) and sulfate of potash are extracted from Great Salt Lake brine. The largest company with solar evaporation ponds is Great Salt Lake Minerals. I don't know what their shipping arrangements are but they have an underwater canal called the Behren's trench. 

http://www.gslfuture.com/gsl_history.html

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/state-and-regional/article_d8677831-7318-5591-8426-124059e5165b.html

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=276372

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=140683#

http://ut.water.usgs.gov/greatsaltlake/images/gslmapvicinitylarge.jpg

Mike

[Deggesty]

Great Western

So, I suggest that some one else ask another question to save the thread going cold.  

A quick one: what animals were featured on the wall of the bar in the North Shore's Electroliner?

Johnny

[Great Western]

 It seems rather like I asked questions that were difficult or have no answer.

So, I suggest that some one else ask another question to save the thread going cold.  

[Great Western]

 Thank you.

Gosh that comparison photo does emphasize how small the UK loading gauge/clearance is compared to that in America.  Of course we had to fit into existing places -few wide open spaces compared to the States -  although I did note a recent reference to the American Eastern railroads having less clearance that those built in the former Territories.

However, one of my pastimes, when rain stops me running trains in my back yard, is to follow railroad lines on Google Earth.

I was recently looking at the Great Salt Lake in UT and observing the line (former SP I believe) from Ogden UT across the Bonneville Flats to NM.  

My questions, all linked, are :

What salts/minerals are extracted in the Salt Lake area, particularly from the evaporation processes, and how were they shipped - hopper, gondolas  

 I know something about coal, after all isn't the UTAH Railway known as the Coal Route.  

Any time era is acceptable but as I was unable to find much info on a search I suspect any traffic now is, in the main, by road.  (Hopefully I will be proven wrong  )

 

[wanswheel]

Great Western, yes the D of H. Your turn.

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=185154

[Great Western]

 Although the London Midland & Scottish Railway was not No.1 on my list of the big four pre-nationalization railroads  (that honour goes to The Great Western Railway ) that was the railway that sent 6229 Duchess Of Hamilton to the Fair.  The loco changed identities with 6220 Coronation for the event.  6220 was the first of the class and was therefore the name given to the class as a whole.

 She currently resides at  Britain's National Railway Museum I understand.

Sister loco 6233 Duchess of Sutherland (another Scottish name) was recently in my area running an excursion of my Heritage line.  As she is slightly longer than the largest GWR passenger loco, a King Class loco, we had to made extensions to the turntable so she could be turned.

[wanswheel]

What English locomotive was at the 1939 New York World's Fair?

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1679965&t=w    FDR

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1679983&t=w    Fiorello LaGuardia

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1677173&t=w

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1677161&t=w

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1677169&t=w

http://images.nypl.org/index.php?id=1677175&t=w    

Mike

[AWP290]

When FDR went to Columbus, the Ps-4's were taken off in Atlanta and Ps-2's finished the trip into Warm Springs.  I don't believe the old GM&G line would have supported the weight of the Ps-4's.

 

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

If there's any interest, more pictures of FDR's last ride from Warm Springs to Washington:

http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/vanga/photos/mer/jpg/mer043.jpg

http://collections.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Rogers&CISOPTR=695&CISOBOX=1&REC=1

http://collections.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Rogers&CISOPTR=700&CISOBOX=1&REC=19

http://collections.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Rogers&CISOPTR=697&CISOBOX=1&REC=18

http://collections.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Rogers&CISOPTR=699&CISOBOX=1&REC=2

http://collections.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/McTyre&CISOPTR=49&CISOBOX=1&REC=17

Yes, Mike, these are of interest to me. I do not remember much about FDR's death, but I do remember the event.

I wonder how many of us who looked at these pictures noticed that the Southern did not use a heavy Pacific to move the train from Warm Springs to Atlanta--I don't believe that the track was built  to support such a heavy locomotive. The Southern never did have much traffic on its line to Columbus.

Johnny

 

[AWP290]

Greenwood is what I had in mind, but I've also been informed, off list, that Columbia, in the 1890's, was also servid by five roads.  I wasn't going back that far.

 

Take it away, Mike!

 

Bob

[wanswheel]

Greenwood?  On the 1948 map I see Southern, Seaboard, Charleston & Western Carolina (ACL), Georgia & Florida, Piedmont & Northern.

If there's any interest, more pictures of FDR's last ride from Warm Springs to Washington:

http://dlg.galileo.usg.edu/vanga/photos/mer/jpg/mer043.jpg

http://collections.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Rogers&CISOPTR=695&CISOBOX=1&REC=1

http://collections.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Rogers&CISOPTR=700&CISOBOX=1&REC=19

http://collections.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Rogers&CISOPTR=697&CISOBOX=1&REC=18

http://collections.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/Rogers&CISOPTR=699&CISOBOX=1&REC=2

http://collections.atlantahistorycenter.com/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/McTyre&CISOPTR=49&CISOBOX=1&REC=17

http://pro.corbis.com/images/U1015631INP.jpg?size=67&uid={c0581760-265c-438e-9d44-9288f307e5a3}

http://pro.corbis.com/images/NA002210.jpg?size=67&uid={7285bc02-4e4d-4f71-8896-6eda9467d946}

Mike

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

Bob, yes Southern Railway

Mike, seeing the picture of one of the engines used on FDR's funeral train reminded me of the Ps4 (also one of those used to carry the funeral train to Washington) in the Smithsonian. It's thirty-five years since I saw the engine, so I do not know what changes have been made in its display since. Back then, it was possible to hear the recording of the arrival and departure of a passenger train when you stood by the engine. The recording was made several years after the engine was put on display--but the whistle heard in the recording was that of the engine. When the 4501 was in the Washington area a few years after the engine was moved in, the whistle was moved to the 4501 for recording.

Johnny

[AWP290]

Thanks for the welcome.

Okay - here goes.  There was but one city in the entire state of South Carolina served by as many as five railroads.  What city was it, and for additional credit, what were the roads?

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA

[wanswheel]

Bob, yes Southern Railway. Welcome to the forum and it's your turn to ask the next question.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?imgurl=2c669202f0906071&q=franklin%20d%20roosevelt%20train%20source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfranklin%2Bd%2Broosevelt%2Btrain%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?imgurl=c579472747b444dc&q=franklin%20d%20roosevelt%20warm%20springs%20source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfranklin%2Bd%2Broosevelt%2Bwarm%2Bsprings%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?imgurl=24a886c0b56a964f&q=franklin%20d%20roosevelt%20warm%20springs%20source:life&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfranklin%2Bd%2Broosevelt%2Bwarm%2Bsprings%2Bsource:life%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26start%3D20

[AWP290]

FDR rode the Southern almost exclusively to Warm Springs, GA.  I believe that once or twice, coming from somewhere other than Washington, he came in to neighboring Manchester, GA (four miles away), but Warm Springs was a local station on the Southern.

 

Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA