I am doing this from memory of an article in Model Railroader in the 1970's.
What I remember reading was that P&W was built to heavy railroad standards of the day. And was incorporated as a railroad not an interurban or street railway, hence the reason for it being standard gauge(56 1/2"). The impression I had(correct my if I am wrong) was that regulatory authorities did not want to allow street railways and interurbans to run freight trains down city streets. The reason that Philadelphia and Pittsuburg both had broad gauge operations.
Thx IGN
Goshen was never reached by the Air Line which went out of business and its trackage made part of Gary Railways. Goshen, no longer blocking on the name, now that it's mentioned, was the connecting point for the Northern Indiana with the Winona which ran south to the Peru connection with the Indiana Railroad. If the Northen Indiana did not run east to Gary, it possibly went further to Hammond or was shorter and ran only to Michigan City, with the parallel interurban beyond that point run by Gary Railways. I assume by connecting with the CTA, you mean it connected when it was converted to bus company! Not a real physical connecction, but still I suppose anything that interchanges passengers is a connection.
I don't count the P&W as an interurban, but as a suburban light rail line with some commuter rail and heavy rapid transit characteristics. The street running in Norrestown was absorbed by the Lehigh Valley Transit's Liberty Bell route which certainly was a true interurban. Its cars began using the P&W ,long after the overruning third rail was installed.
The Air Line (Goshen, South Bend and Chicago) and the NI shared a street in Laporte, IN. Apparently there was a track connection, though only one recorded movement between systems.
You've got the railroad right but not the endpoints. Local streetcars in Gary were operated by Gary Rys. and Gary & Interurban, the Air Line was part of this network, not affiliated with Northern Indiana Ry.
Northern Indiana Ry, ran between Gary and South Bend, also ran east from South Bend to a connection with the Winona interurban, which ran south to Peru Indiana for a connection with the Indiana Railroad, and this ws the route that the Pullman-built HIgh-Speeds used for delivary to the Indiana. It also ran local streetcar lines in Gary and Michigan City, possibly also South Bend. The famous MY - Chicago Air Line Railroad became part of Gary Railways, which was I believe a Northen Indian subsidiary.
Back when South Shore was still an interurban, there was a competing interurban over part of its route. What was the competing interurban route's name, and what were the endopoints of the route over which they competed??
Based on our time schedule...about a 3 hour drive on each end of the day...doubt we'll get anything in not already planned unless the group wants to change something. But, too, this is also the trip Wade had always wanted to take. And I believe there are Kawaski cars on trolley lines 101 and 102 now, too, with all Brilliners and PCC cars gone except for fan trips. The 15 line just got a refurbishing I think and has just been reopened. Anyone wishing to join us should let me know so we can be looking for you and know where to find you. Just reply through my Trains membership or at ridewithmehenry@hotmail.com...it is a labor of love and for fun and there are no charges, we share gas and sometimes I get my dinner bought. In fact it would be nice to have someone along who knows where we're going and what we're seeing...
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
henry6 Several of my Ridewithmehenry group will be riding the Norristown HIgh Speed line plus the Media and Sharon HIll "trolley" lines Sat. 6/30. Rode the Norristown line Bullet cars years ago. This trip is in memorium to Wade Rendle who past away just a few months ago. He was one of my oldest and closest railfan friends...was responsible for the Ridewithmehenry trips. He always wanted to do a trip on these lines but we never got around to it. At his funeral his son asked if I could arrange such a trip in his honor. We plan on leaving on SEPTA from Doylestown station at 10:25AM to Market E., to Norristown Transit, to the HIgh Speed Line, then the trolleys, then the El to 30th St. and SEPTA rail back to Doylestown. Have watched several You Tube videos of the two trolley lines from the 80s and more recent and am very much looking forward to 6/30 as there is a lot to be seen there yet today.
Several of my Ridewithmehenry group will be riding the Norristown HIgh Speed line plus the Media and Sharon HIll "trolley" lines Sat. 6/30. Rode the Norristown line Bullet cars years ago. This trip is in memorium to Wade Rendle who past away just a few months ago. He was one of my oldest and closest railfan friends...was responsible for the Ridewithmehenry trips. He always wanted to do a trip on these lines but we never got around to it. At his funeral his son asked if I could arrange such a trip in his honor. We plan on leaving on SEPTA from Doylestown station at 10:25AM to Market E., to Norristown Transit, to the HIgh Speed Line, then the trolleys, then the El to 30th St. and SEPTA rail back to Doylestown. Have watched several You Tube videos of the two trolley lines from the 80s and more recent and am very much looking forward to 6/30 as there is a lot to be seen there yet today.
Henry, my buddy and I rode almost exactly the same routes in the Philly area in 2007. The "hi-speed" portion was (and I guess still is) handled by Kawasaki-built cars which themselves resembled a keystone wedge from the front. Great fun! Are you going to tie up with the no. 15 surface PCC route, the only one left?
CSSHEGEWISCH has it. The P&W was built with underrunning third rail on what became the Strafford line. When the Norristown line was built it changed to overrunning with about three blocks of street running in Norristown. Later P&W cut back to the station on the elevated segment that was replaced a short while ago.
Those hints make it much too easy. The line in question is Philadelphia & Western, currently SEPTA's Norristown (Route 100) line. Conway caused the Brill Bullets to be built, the Electroliners went into service on that line in 1964 and seven pairs of CTA 6000 series cars were sold for service on that line in the 1990's to cover an equipment shortage pending delivery of the current equipment. For more info see this link: http://www.nycsubway.org/wiki/SEPTA_Rt._100:_Norristown_Line
By the way, South Shore is NOT an interurban and hasn't been one since the late 1950's. By that time, freight service was being handled by Little Joes and ex-NYC R2's with the steeple cabs scrapped or in work train service and the majority the passenger car fleet had been lengthened to 77' and some of them equipped with A/C and picture windows.
An interurban line that still runs and still had a connection with the CTA in the 1990's? Ain't no such animal. The South Shore is the only, only interruban line in North America that was still an interuban line and not just a freight railroad in the 1990's.
The ONLY interurban lines that connected to the CTA were the CA&E and the CNS&M.
Define the railroad you are talking about. It is not an interurban and coujld never have really been one.
Or it did not connect with the CTA --- or the CRT for that matter.
This company switched from underrunning to overrunning when it added a branch which later became its main line. The original main line was later abandoned. The overhead wire was on a short stretch of street running which also served as a connection to another carrier.
Like the CA&E, it had a Thomas Conway connection. It also had a North Shore connection, but not until less than 50 years ago. It even had a CTA connection in the 90's.
The CTA and its predicessor, Chicago Rapid Transit, and the "Roaren Elgin" and the North Shore all used trolley wire at one point or another at one time or another, and also used overruning third rail, but never ever ever used underruning third rail anywhere. The CTA is the last NA user of unprotected third rail with gravety shoes instead of spring shoes.
The only USA interruban that still runs is the Chicago South Shore and South Bend. All others have been abandoned. So if you are talking about an interurban that still runs, it is the only one.
Of course that is passenger service. Freight service would include the Mason City and Clear Lake which is now the Iowa Terminal, still trolley wire trolley pole electric, an ex-North Shore passenger motor-car for charter.
When you say still runs, are you referring to diesel freigiht trains? Lilke Charles City Western and the revived Piedmont and Northern? Possibly Central California Traction? But this isn't east.
If the South Shore ever used third rail anywhere, it is news to me, but I am willing to learn. As far as I know it was originally an AC electrification, but switched to 1500V DC under Insull mamnagement to be compatible with the IC and so run through to downtown Chicago under electric power.
For most of its history, the Laural Line, the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley, used overruning third rail, except for overhead wire on the South Scranton freight branch, the on-grade entrance to its Wilksbarre terminal, and the Nay Aug Park (Scranton) branch. Possibly wire operation was given up when it became freight only, with wire gone on South Scranton and diesel used there, still use of third rail locomotives on the main, Nay Aug Park long abandoned before main line passenger service, and no need for the trolleywire tracks in Willksbarre. But I was not aware that the L&WV ever used underrunign thhird rail. And although the line was completely abandoned, including freight service, part of it has been resurrected with trolley wire as a museum operation with regular sechedules passenger service with overhead wire, leaving from adjacent to Steamtown. The roadbed is largelty intace, and the whole linemay be resurrected some day.
rcdrye That would be less than 50 years ago (!). This one is further east, and still running.
That would be less than 50 years ago (!). This one is further east, and still running.
You are so right!
rcdrye My apologies for mixing threads.. On this thread which Interurban started with underrunning third rail, changed to overrunning third rail and overhead wire, and ended up with all overrunning third rail?
My apologies for mixing threads.. On this thread which Interurban started with underrunning third rail, changed to overrunning third rail and overhead wire, and ended up with all overrunning third rail?
Was it the Chicago (Howard Street) - Skokie (Dempster Street) portion of the old Chicago North Shore's Skokie Valley Route, in modern times operated by the CTA and called the "Skokie Swift," which went from mixed overheard/third rail to all third rail about five years ago??
Cat. towers still exist on the western (Skokie) half of the route but no more overhead in Skokie -- no more "pan up/down" motion to switch modes on the fly, alas -- it is all third rail.
Please don't confuse the two threads. You are expected to ask a new question on this one. The end of the line for the interurban from Quebec was Saint Joachim, byond St. Ann de Beu Pre, which was about three-fifths of the length of the line to Saint Joachim.
Can't do the suburban loop (Boischatel?), but Montmorency Falls and St. Anne de Beaupre shrine should do the others.
On the shared bridge theme this interurban line shared a covered bridge with a gauntlet track with a steam powered branch.
ccdrye, you are correct and should ask the next question.
But at the same tiime, name the waterfall, the suburban end terminal with the loop (and a good French-style cafe in the middle of the loop) and the name of the edifice that pilgrims reached via the line.
Quebec Railway Light and Power. CN operated freight over it (and later (1954?) bought it) to reach the isolated Murray Sound Sub.
daveklepper Name the route of an interurbqn line located in North Amerrica with the following characteristics. Freight service always was and still is (diesel) provided by one of the six or seven major NA frieght railroads over the entire line and main line track of the interruban line. Most was provided by fairly modern steel cars. But some wooden trailers existed, including open platform woood coaches from steam days, and some wood motor cars as well. Downtown terminal had a turntable to rotate single-end motor cars. Suburban termianl had a loop. Operaton separate from the city streetcar system although at one time there was a corporate connection. No track shared with the streetcars, just shared with freight and at one time steam passenger railroad trains. Local streetcar system converted to busses long before the interurban line. Religious pilgrims brought out all the old equipment for use on religious holidays. Beautful view of a dramatic waterfall.
Name the route of an interurbqn line located in North Amerrica with the following characteristics.
Freight service always was and still is (diesel) provided by one of the six or seven major NA frieght railroads over the entire line and main line track of the interruban line.
Most was provided by fairly modern steel cars. But some wooden trailers existed, including open platform woood coaches from steam days, and some wood motor cars as well.
Downtown terminal had a turntable to rotate single-end motor cars. Suburban termianl had a loop.
Operaton separate from the city streetcar system although at one time there was a corporate connection. No track shared with the streetcars, just shared with freight and at one time steam passenger railroad trains.
Local streetcar system converted to busses long before the interurban line.
Religious pilgrims brought out all the old equipment for use on religious holidays.
Beautful view of a dramatic waterfall.
Rgds IGN
wanswheel Railway Age Gazette, October 2, 1914 Reconstruction of Big Hump Yard by Belt Railway to Relieve Downtown Terminals of Transfer Freight The operation of a large yard in the vicinity of Chicago to handle, all or a large part of the interchange of through carload freight in order to decrease the switching within the city and reduce the congestion in the downtown district has been more or less seriously considered since 1889 when the Chicago Transfer & Clearing Company was organized to build such a yard at Clearing, about 10 miles southwest of the center of the city. The yard built by that company and rebuilt in 1898 by the Chicago Union Transfer Company has remained practically unused, but early in 1912 an agreement was reached by 12 railways entering the city, under which they became joint owners of the Belt Railway with the understanding that the Chicago & Western Indiana would buy the old yard, rebuild and enlarge it, and lease its Belt divisions, including the yard, to the Belt Railway as formerly. This reconstruction work has now been practically completed, and it is expected that the yard will be put in operation in the near future. THE PROBLEM AND THE PROPOSED SOLUTION Since more freight is interchanged between roads at Chicago than at any other point in the country, the need for a comprehensive plan of handling such transfers promptly and economically is felt most keenly there. This heavy interchange of business is caused by the fact that 24 trunk line railways enter the city, practically all of which terminate there. In addition there are 14 terminal, switching and industrial roads in and around the city, originating and delivering large amounts of freight which is received from or transferred to the trunk lines. The total freight car movement into the city excluding empties, is approximately 260,000 cars per month and about the same number of loaded cars are taken out of the city. On the assumption that the number of empty cars bears the same relation to the number of loaded ones as the average for roads in this district, the total car movement is approximately 390,000 in and the same number out. Practically half of the loaded cars are for Chicago delivery, and half for points beyond, so that applying this ratio to the total car movement, about 195,000 cars must be transferred from one road to another at Chicago every month, or 6,500 cars every day. At present about 30 per cent of these cars are handled by belt lines and the remaining 70 per cent, or about 4,500 cars a day, are hauled into the congested district of the city to be delivered by direct switching to the connecting roads. The clearing yard in its reconstructed form is adapted by location and design to become a central "clearing house" for all railways entering the city and will thus solve this most difficult interchange problem, if satisfactory operating agreements can be made to enable its advantages to be realized to the fullest extent. It is owned by the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, the Chesapeake & Ohio, the Chicago & Eastern Illinois, the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, the Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific, the Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville, the Erie, the Grand Trunk, the Illinois Central, the Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie, the Pennsylvania and the Wabash. The line of the Belt Railway makes direct connections with every trunk line entering the city and extensive improvements now under way will give it ample capacity to handle the interchange business of the other roads as well as the owning companies. The fact that some roads not interested in the control of the Belt have been giving it large amounts of transfer freight indicates that even more will be received from such roads after the new yard is put in operation. The yard lies between the Belt and the Indiana Harbor Belt, making it possible for the roads interested in the latter line to send their transfer business to Clearing by that route if they prefer. This line is owned by the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern, the Michigan Central, the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, and the Chicago & North Western, so that with the exception of the Baltimore & Ohio, the Chicago & Alton, the Chicago Great Western, and the Pere Marquette, every trunk line entering the city is interested either through ownership or affiliation in one or the other of the belt lines and three of these exceptions, the Baltimore & Ohio, the Chicago & Alton, and the Pere Marquette, have direct connections of their own to the new yard.
Railway Age Gazette, October 2, 1914
Reconstruction of Big Hump Yard by Belt Railway to Relieve Downtown Terminals of Transfer Freight
The operation of a large yard in the vicinity of Chicago to handle, all or a large part of the interchange of through carload freight in order to decrease the switching within the city and reduce the congestion in the downtown district has been more or less seriously considered since 1889 when the Chicago Transfer & Clearing Company was organized to build such a yard at Clearing, about 10 miles southwest of the center of the city. The yard built by that company and rebuilt in 1898 by the Chicago Union Transfer Company has remained practically unused, but early in 1912 an agreement was reached by 12 railways entering the city, under which they became joint owners of the Belt Railway with the understanding that the Chicago & Western Indiana would buy the old yard, rebuild and enlarge it, and lease its Belt divisions, including the yard, to the Belt Railway as formerly. This reconstruction work has now been practically completed, and it is expected that the yard will be put in operation in the near future.
THE PROBLEM AND THE PROPOSED SOLUTION
Since more freight is interchanged between roads at Chicago than at any other point in the country, the need for a comprehensive plan of handling such transfers promptly and economically is felt most keenly there. This heavy interchange of business is caused by the fact that 24 trunk line railways enter the city, practically all of which terminate there. In addition there are 14 terminal, switching and industrial roads in and around the city, originating and delivering large amounts of freight which is received from or transferred to the trunk lines. The total freight car movement into the city excluding empties, is approximately 260,000 cars per month and about the same number of loaded cars are taken out of the city. On the assumption that the number of empty cars bears the same relation to the number of loaded ones as the average for roads in this district, the total car movement is approximately 390,000 in and the same number out. Practically half of the loaded cars are for Chicago delivery, and half for points beyond, so that applying this ratio to the total car movement, about 195,000 cars must be transferred from one road to another at Chicago every month, or 6,500 cars every day. At present about 30 per cent of these cars are handled by belt lines and the remaining 70 per cent, or about 4,500 cars a day, are hauled into the congested district of the city to be delivered by direct switching to the connecting roads.
The clearing yard in its reconstructed form is adapted by location and design to become a central "clearing house" for all railways entering the city and will thus solve this most difficult interchange problem, if satisfactory operating agreements can be made to enable its advantages to be realized to the fullest extent. It is owned by the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe, the Chesapeake & Ohio, the Chicago & Eastern Illinois, the Chicago, Burlington & Quincy, the Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific, the Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville, the Erie, the Grand Trunk, the Illinois Central, the Minneapolis, St. Paul & Sault Ste. Marie, the Pennsylvania and the Wabash. The line of the Belt Railway makes direct connections with every trunk line entering the city and extensive improvements now under way will give it ample capacity to handle the interchange business of the other roads as well as the owning companies. The fact that some roads not interested in the control of the Belt have been giving it large amounts of transfer freight indicates that even more will be received from such roads after the new yard is put in operation.
The yard lies between the Belt and the Indiana Harbor Belt, making it possible for the roads interested in the latter line to send their transfer business to Clearing by that route if they prefer. This line is owned by the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern, the Michigan Central, the Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul, and the Chicago & North Western, so that with the exception of the Baltimore & Ohio, the Chicago & Alton, the Chicago Great Western, and the Pere Marquette, every trunk line entering the city is interested either through ownership or affiliation in one or the other of the belt lines and three of these exceptions, the Baltimore & Ohio, the Chicago & Alton, and the Pere Marquette, have direct connections of their own to the new yard.
This was included with the article two questions back.
We now have all twelve owners, I'll give daveklepper the honor of the next question since he got nine owners right from the start.
As far as current ownership, I am going to assume that the Big Six (BNSF, CSX, CN, CP, NS and UP) have equal shares in BRC for a variety of reasons. L&N became a thirteenth owner around 1969 or 1970 when it obtained C&EI's Evansville line, ownership was still in 13 equal shares. Conrail's share (from PRR by way of PC) would presumably have been divided between CSX and NS, the same would apply to Conrail's interest (from NYC by way of PC) in IHB. Since the corporate shell of Rock Island was not liquidated or re-organized (the bankruptcy trusteeship was lifted without a reorganization), I'm not sure what happened to its share of BRC.
Master list from 1957 BRC map
Soo, IC, CB&Q, AT&SF, Wabash, GTW, CRI&P, PRR, CI&L (Monon), Erie, C&EI, PM.
So with mergers, calculating each 8.3% share...
CP 8.3 (Soo), CN 16.6 (GTW + IC), BNSF 16.6 (CB&Q + AT&SF),
NS 25 (Wabash + PRR + Erie), CSX 20.75 (PM + CI&L, 50% of C&EI), UP 4.16 (50% of C&EI)
Not sure where to tuck CRI&P's 8.3% but it's between CSX and Metra.
rcrdye is correct with Soo Line. Two owners left.
No to Michigan Central and Big Four, sort of correct with Pere Marquette since you previously listed C&O. C&O was never an owner on its own, but inherited PM's ownership with the merger in 1947. Three unmentioned owners still left.
The Soo Line (CP) is a part owner of the Belt Railway, from the original WC/MSP&SSM days.
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