Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[Deggesty]

rcdrye

So where do we go with no new question?

How about a question from you?

[rcdrye]

So where do we go with no new question?

[daveklepper]

Hey, Flyinng Crown, how about your question?

[rcdrye]

Si. Of course the Schindler (Switzerland) trucks ended up getting quickly replaced by Norte Americano style GSC trucks.  The cars lasted into the early 1970s.  Here they are testing in Switzerland in 1953, along with an interior shot of the observation.

FlyingCrow gets the next question.

[FlyingCrow]

Are we talking about the Schindler cars on the Aztec Eagle?

[rcdrye]

If you have access to Arthur Dubin's "More Classic Trains", see the chapter titled "Mexicano de Lujo".  The train actually carried a U.S. sleeping car for a while, though it wasn't european-built.

[daveklepper]

Well, with that hint, it must have been a dedicated streamliner ordered by NdeM when the railroads of Mexico were national, and probably operated between Mexico city and Vera Cruz or Tampico.  I have a dim recollection of such a train, and it may have indeed been called the Rapido.

[rcdrye]

Try expanding your definition of North America...

[henry6]

I agree, I don 't have it right...for one I said Rapido and after retiring for the night I realized I was wrong.  As for the train or railroad....Talgo is the only one to come to mind in the US but it was only demonstration....Aerotrain and later TurboTrain were both North American products so that would bring up the French Rhor Turbo's, but weren't they also 70's technology?  Methinks there is more to this than what has been said....

 

[rcdrye]

Actually Henry doesn't have it right, at least within the "50 years or older" limits of this particular forum.  The TEE trainsets didn't arrive until 1977. Hint:  look further south, and back to the early 1950s.  This equipment was built in Europe for this particular train, and not reassigned from elsewhere.

[daveklepper]

Henry is correct as to the train, but the equipment was original TEE double-end diesel equipment, the type that inaugurated Paris-Brussels-Amsterdam service and was replaced by stainless steel coaches and multi-current electric locomotives as soon as the electrification was continuous.   He gets to ask the next question, since he named the train.

But there is also the original Talgo equipment for the Seattle Portland service.   Did they not use a Spanish-built trainset for the startup?

There was an act of Parliament that required every railroad to run at least one passenger train each way that would stop at every station.   So......   YOu are right about the equipment that was used.

[henry6]

Ontario Northland Northlander...used Rapido style equipment. 

[rcdrye]

My object all sublime
I shall achieve in time —
To let the punishment fit the crime —
The punishment fit the crime;
And make each prisoner pent
Unwillingly represent
A source of innocent merriment!
Of innocent merriment!

My favorite is Pirates of Penzance, especially where the whole tangled plot is fixed by the entrance of Queen Victoria.

From Boise State's excellent G&S web site http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/ the others are:

Thespis, The Sorcerer, Patience, Iolanthe, Princess Ida, Ruddigore, Utopia Limited, The Grand Duke and Pineapple Poll.

I'm guessing Parliamentary trains were the equivalent of streetcar franchise runs - using whatever junk the railroad could scrape up and on a schedule no one found convenient.

On to the next question - I do have a future one about franchise runs, but this isn't it:

Alone among postwar North American name trains, this train was largely equipped with european-built equipment.

[daveklepper]

And the refrain?      "My object....."

Interesting also, that the very first 2-8-2 was ordered by a Japanese railroad, thus giving the name, and the operetta does take palce in Japan.

YOu mnight also enjoy explaining just what were Parliamentary trains.

You are terrific and I am sure I will enjoy your next question.

Meanwhile:  The MIkado, Pirates of Penzance, Gondoliers, HMS PInafore, Yoeman of the Guard, Trial by Jury, Cox and Box.   Do you know of any others?  Which is your favorite?

Gilbert was the author and Sir Arthur Sullivan was the composer

[rcdrye]

Gilbert & Sullivan's "Mikado".  Song is "A more humane Mikado".  Verse snip is:

"The idiot who, in railway carriages,

Scribbles on window-panes,

We only suffer

To ride on a buffer

In Parliamentary trains."

[daveklepper]

Thanks for the CGW answer.   Hint on my question:   Composer and author both British.

[rcdrye]

CGW's last train to Chicago, the remnant of the Legionnaire, came of in 1955.  The rest of CGW service only lasted until 1960.  The CGW was still a B&OCT tenant until after the C&O merger, from Forest Park to Central Ave. yard.  The B&OCT had reciprocal rights Forest Park to Bellwood that were rarely if ever used.

[daveklepper]

I had thought that the Chicago Great Western had discontinued its passenger train into Chicago by 1955.   When did it come off?    I am really surprised to learn that Sante Fe was a tenant and not an owner!    Wow!

My question.   A most frequently used name for a particular wheel arrangement of locomotives (usally tender locomotives, not tank engines) very popular in North America, fairly popular on the European continent, but fairly rare in the UK, that is associated with a musical item that includes within a reference to two parts of passenger rolling stock and one governmental body.   One of the two parts of passenger cars is generally in use four to each car in the UK but non-existant in North America and the other item is in use on all passenger-carrying equipment everywere, and may number anywhere from 14 to 40 for a particular car.

Bonus point, give the refrain and the specific verse containing the passenger car reference.

 

 

[rcdrye]

The tenant carrier at Dearborn was none other than the AT&SF.  All of the other Dearborn users were part owners of the Chicago and Western Indiana (Erie, Wabash, C&EI, Monon, GTW) and all used at least some of the C&WI main line.  AT&SF joined at 21st street, just a few blocks from Dearborn, and used its own switchers, including SG-equipped FM H12-44TS's (C&WI switched for everybody else).  AT&SF also had its own coach yard at 21st and Archer, while C&WI's owners used its yard near 47th St.

The Erie's use of Stilwells probably influenced the C&WI's use for Chicago-Dolton service.

You got two of the three at Grand Central.  PM used a route involving NYC from Porter through Gary to get to the B&OCT at South Chicago,  Of course the PM was later under B&O/C&O ownership, but not in 1955.

The other two carriers in 1955 were the Soo (well, WC) and the Chicago Great Western, which shared the B&OCT line from Forest Park.  The WC and the CGW were part of the very tangled history of the Northern Pacific's bid to get to Chicago.  Grand Central was built by the Chicago & Northern Pacific, an NP subsidiary along with the pre-Soo WC.  Bankruptcy changed all of that, and B&O gained control in a series of transactions completed in 1910.  The NYC and Rock Island also used it from late 1900 to mid 1903, so it briefly hosted the "Twentieth Century Limited".

Feel free to ask the next question.

[daveklepper]

The most famous carrier at Dearborn, for me, will always be the AT&SF with the USA's very best passenger train, the Super Chief.  But I think you are correct is saying that the Monon is a famous carrier, and they were probably a tenant there.  Pretty sure the Sante Fe was a part owner.   I know the Erie operated out of Dearborn, but I always thought they were a part owner, hence the C&EI use of Stillwells iin suburban service.

Now, I left out the Piere Marquet and the Soo (if they were still running a local into Chicago at the time) unles the C&O had taken over the PM by that time, and I just don't remember which terminal it used.  I know the PM-C&O trains used Grand Central after the B&O went into the Chessie System ownership, and possibly they did before that as well, as tenants.   Two other tenants for Grand Central, owned by the B&O?   I thought the Wabash went to Deaborn as an owner, but maybe I am mistaken, and they were a tenant.

 

[rcdrye]

I deliberately left out Canada from the Soo/CP description...

On Chicago terminals:

Central: CCC&St. L and MC are correct.  Soo just misses (1963-1965).  In ancient times, C&O of Indiana.

Dearborn:  Grand Trunk was a C&WI (owning carrier) part owner.  The lone tenant was probably the most famous carrier there.  Think FM switchers.

LaSalle: NYC & RI owners, NKP as tenant is correct.

Union: GM&O is correct.  MILW, PRR ad CB&Q were all part owners of CUT.

That just leaves Grand Central, which had three tenants.

[daveklepper]

I feel really stupid about the Mounaineer, since I once did have that information in my head.

To make up:    Central:  New york Central System specifically MC and Big Four

Dearborn:     Grand Trunk

La Salle       Nickle Plate

Union:       GM&O

YOu did not ask, but Randolph Street, South Shore

And of course the Chicago L,. Wells Street, CA&E, Roosevelt Avenue, North Shore

[rcdrye]

How about this?  Name the tenant (non-owner) railroads at the following Chicago stations in 1955:

Central

Dearborn

LaSalle

Union

If a station is owned by a terminal company, a tenant is NOT a part or full ownwer of the terminal company.

[ZephyrOverland]

rcdrye

Since no one has replied in 5 days, I'll close this one out.  The train name is "Mountaineer".  B&M/MEC former "Flying Yankee"  Budd-built streamliner (original B&M/MEC Boston-Bangor) ran on this B&M/MEC (Boston-Crawford Notch-Fabyans) run in the 1940s, before ending up on the Minute Man (Boston-Troy NY) and Cheshire (Boston-Bellows Falls-White River Jct).

The western train was the Soo/CP Mountaineer which ran Chicago (later St Paul) - Vancouver from about 1922 to 1960.  Some years it ran year round, some as summer only.

So will you be asking another question to keep this thread going?

[rcdrye]

Since no one has replied in 5 days, I'll close this one out.  The train name is "Mountaineer".  B&M/MEC former "Flying Yankee"  Budd-built streamliner (original B&M/MEC Boston-Bangor) ran on this B&M/MEC (Boston-Crawford Notch-Fabyans) run in the 1940s, before ending up on the Minute Man (Boston-Troy NY) and Cheshire (Boston-Bellows Falls-White River Jct).

The western train was the Soo/CP Mountaineer which ran Chicago (later St Paul) - Vancouver from about 1922 to 1960.  Some years it ran year round, some as summer only.

[rcdrye]

Both trains had the same name.  The western one ran from the 20's to around 1960.  The Eastern one inherited its equipment after the fixed-consist streamliner proves too small for its intended service.

[narig01]

rcdrye

Quasi-related name trains:

One ran in eastern states for a short time with jointly-owned streamlined equipment originally purchased for another service by the same carriers.

The other ran in the midwest and west, largely with heavyweight equipment.

Both ended up being seasonal.

 

Silver Star   and    Silver Meteor

Rgds IGN

[rcdrye]

Quasi-related name trains:

One ran in eastern states for a short time with jointly-owned streamlined equipment originally purchased for another service by the same carriers.

The other ran in the midwest and west, largely with heavyweight equipment.

Both ended up being seasonal.

 

[wanswheel]

Rc, yes your turn.

Prairie by Carl Sandburg

http://www.americanpoems.com/poets/carlsandburg/12795

Photo of Woodrow Wilson

http://www.railroadheritage.org/SPT--FullRecord.php?ResourceId=1428

 

[rcdrye]

"A funnel of white light shoots from over the pilot of the Pioneer Limited crossing Wisconsin."