Not the Alton but yes, a Limited between Chicago and a city on the Mississippi.
It was a long walk to the Broofield Zoo from the "L"! (Though you could take the Chicago and West Towns from a short walk over from the Douglas Park "L" to Cermak Rd.)
I'm going to go with the Alton Limited (C&A) for the radio question.
Thanks for the interesting answers. Go by "L'" was the slogan (catch phrase?) seen on sidewalk stairway billboards photographed by John Vachon of the Farm Security Administration...
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsa/8a33000/8a33200/8a33213v.jpg
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsa/8a33000/8a33200/8a33214v.jpg
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsa/8a06000/8a06700/8a06705v.jpg
Good luck on a new question: What was the first train in the U.S. to install radio receivers for the benefit of passengers in 1922? This train is mentioned in Carl Sandburg's 1918 poem, "Prairie," had Woodrow Wilson aboard in 1912, and was the first "name train" of its railroad in 1898.
wanswheel In 1941, ads for the Chicago "L" contained a short slogan. What was it?
In 1941, ads for the Chicago "L" contained a short slogan. What was it?
"Chicago's Only Rapid Transit"
According to what I will term as "ancients" , members forever of CERA, there was no slogan.
just a guess: "Above the traffic" ???
I know CSL had "Ride a mile and smile the while" but that wasn't used by CRT. Most of the posters I've seen from the CRT era were earlier and had slogans like "Avoid Street Congestion".
When Paul Reistrup ran B&O's passenger operation, he got rid of the slumbercoaches when the lease from Budd (?) expired and replaced them with the 16&4's. I believe that the 16&4's were marketed as slumber-room coaches.
wanswheel has it. CV/B&M it is (Now NECR/PAS) with CV owning White River Jct - Windsor, B&M owning Windsor-Brattleboro, and CV owing the west side of the river ine between Brattleboro and East Northfield an B&M owning the East side.
The B&M bridge at East Northfield was condemned in the late 60s/early 70s so all traffic ended up on the CV line.
Legacy of ownership pattern is the signal system. ABS WRJ-Windsor, CTC Windsor-Brattleboro, unsignalled Brattleboro - East Northfield. Upgrade grants for Vermonter service should change that to all CTC in the near future.
The B&O's non-Texas slumbercoaches were a surprise to me. I misspoke on the 16&4s - they were used at slumbercoach rates on the SCL after SCL bought them and ended up in Amtrak's slumbercoach series.
My leaning answer would be far to the west where the Fort Worth and Denver (CB&Q) shared with Sante Fe south from Pueblo, CO. while SF also had its own stretch of track in places seperate from the FW&D but my milages may be way off in perspective. . But I foregot about the CV-B&M Connecticut River lines joining at East Northfied, MA with the B&M line on the east side (NH) to Brattleboro, VT (and, at one time, N. Walpole, NH-Bellows Falls, VT) then joint to WRJ criss crossing the CT River several times in journey and the CV went north west to St. Albans while the B&M northeast to Groveton and Berlin, NH. I believe passenger trains served Brattleboro in both directions, thus staying on the CV track while freights were southbound on the CV and north on B&M until B&M track in NH was pulled.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
rcdrye The B&O's sleepercoaches were 16 duplex roomette 4 DBR standard sleepers built by Budd, not Slumbercoaches. The true Budd Slumbercoach had 24 singles a la duplex roomettes and 8 doubles. ...... Amtrak ended up with all 4 CB&Qs, 4 original NPs, 4 ex-NYC NPs, 2 of 3 ex-B&O NPs, the lone ex-MP NP car and 7of 10 NYC 16/10 rebuilds. I do not know what happened to the B&O cars that did not go to NP.
The B&O's sleepercoaches were 16 duplex roomette 4 DBR standard sleepers built by Budd, not Slumbercoaches. The true Budd Slumbercoach had 24 singles a la duplex roomettes and 8 doubles.
......
Amtrak ended up with all 4 CB&Qs, 4 original NPs, 4 ex-NYC NPs, 2 of 3 ex-B&O NPs, the lone ex-MP NP car and 7of 10 NYC 16/10 rebuilds. I do not know what happened to the B&O cars that did not go to NP.
The B&O did have five Budd-built 24-8 Slumbercoaches; they were named Slumberland, Dreamland, Restland, Sleepland, and Thriftland. The NP got the Restland (NP Loch Katrine), Sleepland (NP Loch Long) and Thriftland (NP Loch Lochy). These three were sold to Amtrak. The other two cars, Slumberland and Dreamland, were eventually sold to Ross Rowland's High Iron Company and Amtrak got those two in the mid 1990's.
Central Vermont (White River Junction to Windsor) and Boston & Maine (Windsor to Brattleboro). Union Stations at WRJ, Brattleboro, Bellows Falls and perhaps Windsor?
CV ultimately gained the B&M tracks. For details, see U.S. Supreme Court decision at link, Amtrak vs. B&M (1992). Future Chief Justice John Roberts, the Acting Solicitor General, argued and won the case for Amtrak.
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/503/407/case.html
Mike
With theTennessee Pass line closed and the ex-MP seriously downgraded or spun off, the UP's traffic must be a pretty small part of the Joint Line.
Back to my shared track question:
On the 72 mile line, Carrier A operated through freights, often with engines from its parent company. Carrier B operated freights and passenger trains. One jointly operated passenger train operated both ways on carrier A's normally southbound-only line for handling mail, often continuing south over carrier B's line with a locomotive from carrier A. What are the correct names of carrier A & B?
Comment on the Joint Line train that handled the DZ's NP or CB&Q Slumbercoach. It was in my experience a joint D&RGW and AT&SF train, carrying through cars, sleeper and coach for connections to the AT&SF at Raton(?). and also as the D&RGW train to Salt Lake City via Pueblo, Royal George, Tennesee Pass, in my time combined with the Prospector west of Grand Junction. In additional to handling Denver Zephyr cars between Colorado Springs and Denver, is sometimes had a Rock Island lighweight car in the consist, presumably to address change deuqpment needs for the Rocky Mountain Rocket at Colorado Springs and Denver. Other trains on the Joint Line were more pure, specifically the Texas Zephyr, which was all Burlington (Colorado Southern - Fort Worth and Denver, often with heavyweight equipment included), and the Colorado Eagle, joint D&RGW-MP, with all equipment, including that owned by the D&RGW, painted in MP colors, and the diesels operating through. The use of the D&^RGW or AT&SF station in Colorado Springs depended on direction of travel. If the mileage from Dernver to Colorado Springs is 74 miles, then that is the answer to your question. But joint operations continued south to Pueblo. Still do?
How much traffic moves over the line today? Lots of BNSF PRB coal to Texas I imagine, but how much does the UP use the line and to where?
The B&O's sleepercoaches were 16 duplex roomette 4 DBR standard sleepers built by Budd, not Slumbercoaches. The true Budd Slumbercoach had 24 singles a la duplex roomettes and 8 doubles. New York Central styled their Slumbercoaches "Sleepercoaches", had 4 real ones (originally 20th Century) and 10 16 single/10 double rebuilds of Budd-built 22 roomette Harbor series cars. The 16/10s were assigned to these trains:
20th Century New York - Chicago (the only NYC run I rode)
New England States Boston-Chicago
Ohio State Limited New York-Cincinnati
Cleveland Limited New York-Cleveland
Wolverine New York-Detroit
The Wolverine was the only Canadian operation until the Montrealer under Amtrak. All of the NYC 24/8s went to NP in 1964. The 16/10's stayed on into Penn Central days, though more often idle than not. ZephyrOverland is correct that B&O ran slumbercoaches Baltimore-Chicago, originally on the Columbian.
To add to this list:
- the NYC also operated sleepercoaches on the New England States, Ohio State Limited, Chicagoan and the Wolverine,
- the B&O also operated slumbercoaches on the Columbian/Capitol Limited
- under Amtrak, slumbercoaches ran on the Empire Builder (around 1973), the Denver Zephyr, Florida trains (Carolina Special, Vacationer, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Champion), the Broadway Limited and Lake Shore Limited, the Night Owl, Montrealer and Crescent (New York-Atlanta only).
rcdrye Slumber(Sleeper)coaches CB&Q was first on the DZ 1956. A bunch of the others started in 1958 (NYC, NP) NYC Chicago-New York (20th Century with both real 24&8 and rebuild 16&10) B&O/MP Baltimore -St Louis-Texas (I'm thinking San Antonio, but I don't have a "Guide" to check). B&O had 3 MP had 1. CB&Q/D&RGW Chicago-Denver-Colorado Springs (Denver Zephyr) CB&Q/NP Chicago-Seattle (North Coast Limited) The DZ/NCL cars were in a pool so that only one turnaround car was needed in Chicago on any given day. I left out fakes like UP's leased PRR 21rmt cars on the City of Denver (in UP yellow) and B&O's 16 duR4dbr cars run at slumbercoach rates on the SCL after 1968. In the Amtrak era slumbercoaches appeared at various times on the florida trains, the Broadway, and even the Montrealer.
Slumber(Sleeper)coaches
CB&Q was first on the DZ 1956. A bunch of the others started in 1958 (NYC, NP)
NYC Chicago-New York (20th Century with both real 24&8 and rebuild 16&10)
B&O/MP Baltimore -St Louis-Texas (I'm thinking San Antonio, but I don't have a "Guide" to check). B&O had 3 MP had 1.
CB&Q/D&RGW Chicago-Denver-Colorado Springs (Denver Zephyr)
CB&Q/NP Chicago-Seattle (North Coast Limited)
The DZ/NCL cars were in a pool so that only one turnaround car was needed in Chicago on any given day.
I left out fakes like UP's leased PRR 21rmt cars on the City of Denver (in UP yellow) and B&O's 16 duR4dbr cars run at slumbercoach rates on the SCL after 1968.
In the Amtrak era slumbercoaches appeared at various times on the florida trains, the Broadway, and even the Montrealer.
I don't remember slumbercoaches operating on the Soputhern Crescent, and since they didn't make the cut to HEP, I doubt they did under Amtrak (that's less than 50 years ago, anyway!). The coast-to-coast sleeper was always a 10&6 in the lightweight years.
Back to the Official Guide (1/60) for the following: DZ arrived D&RGW and departed AT&SF at Colorado Springs. Train was D&RGW Royal Gorge 1/2, which was NOT joint with MP(That was 3/4) . B&O/MP slumbercoaches ran Baltimore - San Antonio, including a chunk of T&P on the Texas Eagle between Texarkana and Longview. After the B&O/MP Texas service ended, NP ended up with all of the B&O/MP fleet.
daveklepper Question: List al railroads that operated Budd's Slumbercoahc/sleeperchoach. Beyond this correct answer, if you can, lable the routes. Inlcuded all interline equpment, sleepercoaches of one railroad operating on another. The latter has some surprising answers! Who was first? Who was last? Where?
Question: List al railroads that operated Budd's Slumbercoahc/sleeperchoach. Beyond this correct answer, if you can, lable the routes. Inlcuded all interline equpment, sleepercoaches of one railroad operating on another. The latter has some surprising answers! Who was first? Who was last? Where?
Rgds IGN
I thought the Denver -Colo. Springs train that carried the DZ cars was the Royal Gorge, which was an MP/D&RGW train. It is true that the train arrived at the AT&SF/C&S station in CS and departed from the D&RGW station, or maybe the other way round.
How about a joint track question? These two carriers shared about 72 miles of a line divided as follows from north to south: Carrier A: 14 miles, Carrier B: 49 miles. The last 9 miles were normally operated as a pair, southbound on carrier A, northbound on carrier B. There were at least four stations named as "Union Station" on this segment.
This does apply to 50 years or older, though some of today's operations can be traced back to the old arrangements.
Excellent answer and sufficiently complete, except that you might have pointed out that since the NP and CB&Q cars were in a pool, one could find his or her car on the Denver Zephyr to be an NP car and not a CB&Q car. And of course for some time the western terminal of the DZ's car was Colorado Springs, in a train from Denver to Colorado Springs that was a joint D&RGW-AT&SF train and not a CS-FW&D (Q-system) train!
Sorry that I forgot my geography and that Goshen is east of Elkhart, not west. But I believe NI did plan on building west of Goshen, and I wonder what the expected eastern destination was, Toledo?
YOur question again!
The Northern Indiana did get to Goshen via Elkhart from South Bend/Mishawaka. It also ran local services in just about every town it touched.
Henry, your Liberty Bell comment is on the wrong question forum. But Goshen, not South Bend, was the eastern end of the Northern Indiana, because that is where it connected with the Winona. I think it had panned to extend to Elkhart, but didn't get further than a few miles of grading.
I stand embarrassed and apologetic for being out of line by posting a question as part of my ramblings last night. Dave took care of it ok, though. Few know, and none remember, that the Liberty Bell was kept in Allentown before being moved to Philadelphia's Independence Hall, thus the Liberty Bell Line as a "historic retracing" of the route of the moving of the Bell.
.
I'll give it to daveklepper, who got the railroad correct at the outset, and eventually got to South Bend and Michigan City as the endpoints.
Going west from South Bend, the Northern Indiana closely paralleled the South Shore to New Carlisle, then veered sothwest towards LaPorte (where it shared a street with the "Air Line" ) before heading back northwest to Michigan City. Looking at it in steam road terms, it followed the NYC and an NKP branch, while the South Shore went directly west.
The Air line never got further east than Laporte, or for that matter further west than Chesterton, where it connected with a Gary Railways subsidiary.
Just to illustrate how connected the midwest traction network was, when the NI lost a bunch of equipment in a carbarn fire it bought used cars from Cleveland, which arrived under their own power via several Ohio companies, the Indiana RR, and the Winona RR via Goshen.
Excerpt from Interstate Commerce Commission Reports (1922)
Upon petition of respondent, the Chicago, Lake Shore & South Bend Railway Company, this proceeding was instituted to determine whether the passenger fares which respondent is required by authority of the State of Indiana to maintain for intrastate travel in that State cause any undue or unreasonable advantage, preference, or prejudice as between persons or localities in intrastate commerce on the one hand and interstate commerce on the other hand, or any undue, unreasonable, or unjust discrimination against interstate commerce; and if so, what fares, maximum, minimum, or both, shall be prescribed in order to remove such advantage, preference, prejudice, and discrimination. Notice was served upon the State of Indiana, but no one other than respondent appeared at the hearing.
Respondent operates an electric railroad, of standard construction and equipment, between South Bend, Ind., and Kensington, Ill., a suburb of Chicago, Ill., approximately 76 miles. Respondent owns the tracks from South Bend to the Indiana-Illinois State line; west thereof it operates under a 99-year lease over the tracks of the Kensington & Eastern Railway, a subsidiary of the Illinois Central Railroad. At Kensington it connects with the Illinois Central, and through trains are operated and joint fares maintained over that line to and from "down-town Chicago." Respondent is engaged in the general transportation of freight, but its passenger operations comprise about 80 per cent of its total operations...
Following increased rates... in which the steam railroads were authorized to increase their interstate passenger fares by 20 per cent, respondent increased its interstate fares to the same extent, effective September 20, 1920, and they are now generally on the basis of 3.6 cents per mile for standard one-way tickets. Respondent also applied to the Public Utilities Commission of Indiana for authority to correspondingly increase its intrastate fares in that State, but increases were allowed only in certain fares which were lower than 3 cents per mile for standard one-way tickets and were limited to that amount, which was the basis then applicable on the steam lines intrastate in Indiana...
Among many illustrations submitted of the effect of the present disparities between interstate and intrastate fares, the record shows that the interstate one-way passenger between Gary, Ind., and Fifty-third Street, Chicago, 24.6 miles, pays 84 cents, while the intrastate one-way passenger between Gary and Michigan City, Ind., 24.9 miles, pays 75 cents; the interstate one-way passenger between Mineral Springs, Ind., and Randolph Street, Chicago, 44.7 miles, pays $1.48, while the intrastate one-way passenger between Mineral Springs and South Bend, 45.2 miles, pays $1.36; and the interstate monthly commutation passenger between East Chicago, Ind., and Kensington, 8.7 miles, pays 20.4 cents per ride, while the intrastate monthly commutation passenger between East Chicago and Gary, 8 miles, pays 15 cents per ride. Throughout the Calumet industrial district near the Indiana-Illinois State line many workmen live in one town and work in another, traveling back and forth over respondent's line. Those who cross the State line have to pay a higher rate of fare than those who do not. Through interstate fares may be defeated by passengers breaking their journeys at points near the State line; for example, the intrastate fare of $2.07 from South Bend to Hammond, Ind., plus the interstate fare of 76 cents from Hammond to Chicago is 41 cents lower than the through interstate fare of $3.24 from South Bend to Chicago.
The service and accommodations afforded interstate and intrastate passengers are generally the same, and there is no substantial difference in the circumstances and conditions under which the transportation is performed.
Respondent seeks authority to increase the basis for its local intrastate one-way fares from 3 to 3.6 cents per mile, and its 40-ride commutation intrastate fares from 1.875 to 2.2 cents per mile. This would make the intrastate one-way fares the same as the interstate one-way fares, and would place the 40-ride commutation fares on substantially the same basis as the present interstate 54-ride commutation fares, which were based upon 1.875 cents per mile prior to the 20 per cent increase. It would also preserve practically the same relationship as now exists between the intrastate standard and commutation fares, which latter are on the basis of 40 rides for 25 one-way fares. Respondent requests that, in increasing its intrastate fares, an exception be made of the points between South Bend and New Carlisle, Ind., inclusive, for the reason that between those points its line parallels that of the Chicago, South Bend & Northern Indiana Railway, the fares of which are on the basis of 3 cents per mile for standard one-way tickets. These carriers jointly maintain a station at New Carlisle and tickets are interchangeable. Should the Chicago, South Bend & Northern Indiana increase its fares to the basis of 3.6 cents per mile, respondent would want to make a similar increase in its corresponding fares...
It is clear that there is no good reason for the difference between respondent's interstate fares and intrastate fares in Indiana, except as hereinafter noted, and that, in view of respondent's financial returns, such difference must be removed by increasing its intrastate fares rather than by reducing its interstate fares. It is apparent, however, that respondent's fares for interchangeable tickets on that part of its line between South Bend and New Carlisle can not be made any higher than the corresponding fares of the Chicago, South Bend & Northern Indiana.
We find that respondent's present standard and commutation passenger fares for interstate transportation are just and reasonable; that there are no conditions affecting the transportation upon respondent's line which justify the maintenance of a lower basis of intrastate fares in Indiana than the fares contemporaneously applicable for interstate transportation; and that the failure of respondent to establish and maintain for intrastate transportation in Indiana the same basis of fares as contemporaneously applicable for interstate transportation over its line has resulted and will result in intrastate fares lower than the corresponding interstate fares; in undue preference of passengers traveling in intrastate commerce within the State of Indiana; in undue prejudice to passengers traveling in interstate commerce within the State of Indiana and between points in that State and points in the State of Illinois; and in unjust discrimination against interstate commerce.
We further find that said undue preference, prejudice, and discrimination can and should be removed by making increases in said standard and commutation intrastate passenger fares which will correspond with the increases heretofore made by respondent on September 20, 1920, and now in effect, in its standard and commutation interstate passenger fares; subject, however, to the right of respondent to maintain on that part of its line between South Bend and New Carlisle, Ind., both inclusive, the same fares as are contemporaneously maintained by the Chicago, South Bend & Northern Indiana Railway between the same points, provided that such fares shall be applied on interstate as well as intrastate traffic over that part of its line, and further provided that respondent shall maintain interstate standard and commutation fares between all interstate points on its line not in excess of the contemporaneous aggregate of intermediate fares of the same class.
Lehigh Valley Transit called their Upper Darby (69th St. Phila.) - Allentpem Expresses "Liberty Bell Limiteds" because that was the route of the Libery Bell, poured in Allentwon, and delivered in time for Washington's inauguration at Indepence Hall, Philadlephia. (Acoustic renovation in 1992, my old firm)
Meader of Red Arrow, which also owned P&W, named the North Shore's Electroliners "Liberty Liners," perhaps harking back to days before 1949 when the Liberty Bell Limiteds did run over the line to reach 69th St. from the LVT connection in Norristown.
My question: Capitol Transit made two inportant interior innovations in its PCC cars. One was applied only rto a limited degree by CT but is widespread with existing PCC operatons today; the other widely applied on CT PCC's but possib ly no-existant or very limited today.
What are thesse two innovations? Both were a step forward at the time.
Neither was releated to the use of boht conduit and overhead wire operation.
The P&W, Philadelphia and Western, was indeed a chartered steam railroad to connect The City of Brotherly Love with the Steel City in competition with the Paoli Mainliners' Pennsylvania Railroad. Only got to Norristown before the funds done run out. Not sure of the date but was in conjunction with one of the Panics late in the 1890s I think. The LV Traction's Liberty LIner route people pounced on the opportunity to hook up and run thier Interurbans to 69th St.
There's a quesiton: why did LV Traction call their limiteds "Liberty Liners"b and the line the Liberty Bell Route? Don't want just the half answer....
The Air Line never got further east than LaPorte, connecting with what later became Gary Railways. Northern Indiana only went as far west as Michigan City. The CERA book "Faster than the Limiteds" about Gary Railways and the Air Line covers that system, with "Northern Indiana" covering the CSB&NI.
The various Chicago connections with the P&W were all by equipment. Dr. Thomas Conway was responsible fro the CA&E's 1920s rehab, and also designed P&W's famous "Bullet" cars. The CNS&M sold the Electroliners to P&W's successor Red Arrow Lines, and SEPTA acquired several sets of CTA 6000 series PCC rapid transit equipement in the 1990s while waiting for the new generation Bullet replacements.
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