In order to answer the last question I checked the actual schedules of the CM, SW and DF and was surprised to find they differed. I've been wrong all these years in thinking all three trains arrived at and departed from Chicago and Miami at the same times of day.
On to a new question. In the 1950's what was the longest stretch of operating dual gauge (3' and standard) trackage in the US? Name the railroad and the end points of the dual gauge line.
Mark
As a followup, around 1960, I was on the northbound East Coast or West Coast Champion, en route from Orflando to New York in an ACL roomette. This was after the FEC strike, and the East Coast ran via Orlando and the conection to the Seabord at Arundale and the use of the Seabord Miami Station. Between Sanford and Jacksonville, the car I was in was bad-ordered. I forget what th eproblem was, air conditioning or a flat wheel, I do not remember. (I spent most of that leg of the trip in the diner and lounge car, not in my roomette. Before reaching Jacksonville, the porter told me to gather up my things from the roomette and either sit out the switching move in the lounge or in the station. I decided to watch the proceedings from a standing position on the platform. Low and behold the substitute sleeper had Seabord on the letterboard, black on stainless background instead of the white or silver Atlantic Coast Line on a purple background. So I road a Sebord sleeper on the ACL main to Richmond and then NY before the SAL merger!
FlyingCrow Um...you guys have us somewhat confused. What makes the Dixie Flagler and Southwind equipment similar enough to be interchanged? The DF was C&EI-L&N-NC&STL-AB&C-ACL-FEC; the SW the PRR-L&N-ACL-FEC. They WERE inagurated as "companion /cooperative" trains, but ran over different routes with differing equipment. Please clarify. Maybe I misunderstood. abd Director - ACL & SAL HS
Um...you guys have us somewhat confused. What makes the Dixie Flagler and Southwind equipment similar enough to be interchanged? The DF was C&EI-L&N-NC&STL-AB&C-ACL-FEC; the SW the PRR-L&N-ACL-FEC.
They WERE inagurated as "companion /cooperative" trains, but ran over different routes with differing equipment.
Please clarify. Maybe I misunderstood.
abd
Director - ACL & SAL HS
Johnny
KCSfan Johnny, I believe the City of Miami was the only one that could be operated with but one set of equipment. This was possible because there was about a two hour turnaround time between the arrival of the southbound train in Miami and its scheduled departure back north to Chicago. A late night arrival in Chicago made it possible to run the same equipment back south the next morning. The schedules of the other two trains, the Southwind and Dixie Flagler made two sets of equipment each necessary because they departed Miami before the arrival of the other one from the north. I honestly don't remember the SW and DF having identical equipment but if any of the three trains did it must have been these two. IIRC the one time I rode the DF its consist was all stainless cars. I rode the SW twice and both times I remember its cars were Tuscan red with possibly one or a very few stainless cars mixed in. Mark
Johnny, I believe the City of Miami was the only one that could be operated with but one set of equipment. This was possible because there was about a two hour turnaround time between the arrival of the southbound train in Miami and its scheduled departure back north to Chicago. A late night arrival in Chicago made it possible to run the same equipment back south the next morning.
The schedules of the other two trains, the Southwind and Dixie Flagler made two sets of equipment each necessary because they departed Miami before the arrival of the other one from the north. I honestly don't remember the SW and DF having identical equipment but if any of the three trains did it must have been these two. IIRC the one time I rode the DF its consist was all stainless cars. I rode the SW twice and both times I remember its cars were Tuscan red with possibly one or a very few stainless cars mixed in.
As to the other two, the equipment that came in on the SW could well leave as the DF the next day, and the equipment that came in on the DF could leave as the SW after two nights in Miami, as the CM arrived and left the day after the DF arrived.
The following is from the February, 1950 Guide.
Leave Chicago as the DF: 2/1; arrive Miami 2/2; leave Miami as the SW 2/4; arrive Chicago 2/5; leave Chicago as the SW 2/6; arrive Miami 2/7; leave Miami as the DF 2/8; arrive Chicago 2/9; leave Chicago 2/10 as the DF.
You are right; it cannot be done with only two sets for the DF/SW arrangement; a third set is necessary; I had not worked the cycle out thoroughly. Another set is necessary, which would have begun its cycle out of Chicago as the DF 2/4.
Leave Chicago as the SW 2/3; arrive Miami 2/4; leave Miami 2/5 as the DF; arrive Chicago 2/6; leave Chicago 2/7 as the DF, arrive Miami 2/8; leave Miami 2/10 as the SW, arrive Chicago 2/11; leave Chicago as the SW 2/12; arrive Miami 2/13; leave Miami 2/14 as the DF; arrive Chicago 2/15; leave Chicago 2/16 as the DF
By using the same capacity equipment into/out of Miami for the two trains, only three sets were necessary to maintain the service.
As it is, no one else even rose to the bait, so you have the honor for the next question.
Im sorry to be so late in posing a new question, but personal matters have kept my attention away from the thread (I just caught up with all my email this morning).
In the 1950 winter season, three trains provided daily one-night out (each train ran every third day) passenger service between Chicago and Miam, over three different routes. Two of the trains had identical equipment Chicago-Miami, and the equipment of the the third one was different. Which two had identical equipment, and what was the advantage of having identical equipment? And, how was it that the third one could be operated with only one set of equipment? (I could pose another part, but it might give the answer to the first part.)
If I'm in the hunt here, then I check to Johnny.
This what I'd found on Louisana & Arkansas :http://www.louisiana-destinations.com/hope-arkansas-railroads.htm
Most of what I'd based the question and answer on were from the railroads exhibits at the Hope Visitor Center & Museum. And in the case of Kiamichi & KCS, the original L&A from personal observation of current operations. Also cross checking as best I could from web sources.
Not sure but I would speculate that many towns named Fulton got the name from Robert Fulton the steamboat developer. Fulton, Ar was a steamboat landing on the Red River.
Thx IGN
When AB Dean named the Cairo and Fulton, my thought was of the IC's line from Cairo, Ill, to Fulton, Ky. I looked the road up, and found this:
http://encyclopediaofarkansas.net/encyclopedia/entry-detail.aspx?entryID=2422
Another article, http://www.depotmuseum.org/articles.php?article=56 , gives more information on the construction south of Little Rock, telling that Texarkana was reached in January, 1874.
narig01 I've not been able to find a date for when the SLSF arrived in Hope.
I've not been able to find a date for when the SLSF arrived in Hope.
Excerpt from The Railway News (Jan. 16, 1904)
On January 1 mixed train service was inaugurated over the St. Louis, San Francisco and New Orleans line (formerly Arkansas and Choctaw) from Ashdown to Hope, Ark.
Excerpt from Statutes of the United States of America (1896)
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled that the Arkansas and Choctaw Railway Company, a corporation created under and by virtue of the laws of the State of Arkansas, be, and the same is hereby, invested and empowered with the right of locating, constructing, owning, equipping, operating, using, and maintaining a railway and telegraph and telephone line through the Choctaw Nation, in the Indian Territory, beginning at the point on the boundary line between the said Choctaw Nation and the county of Little River, in the State of Arkansas, where the said railway may run, when constructed in the State of Arkansas, thence running, by the most feasible and practicable route, in a northwesterly direction through the said Choctaw Nation, to such point at or near the town of Atoka, in said nation, as said corporation may select, with the right to construct, use, and maintain such tracks, turn-outs, and sidings as said company may deem it to their interest to construct along and upon the right of way and depot grounds herein provided for.
Excerpt from National Register of Historic Places (1996)
The St. Louis and San Francisco Railway Company, commonly known as the Frisco, was established in 1853 to develop a route west to San Francisco across the thirty-fifth parallel, which included Arkansas. Though much of the line was completed by the 1870s, the venture ultimately failed due to inferior administration, fallacious timing, erratic public opinion, bad luck, and greed. In 1866, Congress rescinded the Frisco's 1866 land grant, reclaiming all but 14 million of the 40 million acres it had granted to the company for development purposes, and the line was taken over by the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe system. The Panic of 1893 forced the Atchison, Topeka and Santa Fe into receivership, and in 1896 a reorganized St. Louis and San Francisco bought the eastern portions of the old line at a foreclosure sale. By July 8,1902, the company, financially solid, bought the Arkansas and Choctaw Railway company (renamed the St. Louis, San Francisco and New Orleans Railroad company on October 2, 1902)...
The Arkansas and Choctaw Railway Company was incorporated on August 31, 1895. A line on the Texarkana and Fort Smith Railway began at Ashdown and ran 22 miles to the Arkansas state line west of Arkinda. In 1895 construction was completed while the line was under control of the Central Coal and Coke Company of Kansas City, Missouri. The Choctaw Construction Company was organized by Central Coal and Coke to construct the railroad line from the Arkansas state line to Ardmore, Oklahoma. Control of the line passed to the Construction Company on June 11, 1901. Choctaw Construction was controlled by an executive committee of its stockholders, consisting of Richard H. Keith, president of Central Coal and Coke Company; George A. Madill, a director of the St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company; and John Scullin of the St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company. A syndicate was formed by the St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company to finance such a purchase, under an agreement dated July 8, 1902, which passed control of the Choctaw Construction Company to the St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company. The construction plans were changed to provide for a railroad line from Hope, Arkansas to Ardmore, Oklahoma.
In September of 1902, construction began on the line which ran from the Arkansas state line west of Arkinda to Ardmore, Oklahoma. The line was 167 miles long and was completed in August, 1903. A 32-mile stretch from Ashdown to Hope was started in September, 1902, and completed in December, 1903. The line from Kersey (originally Mead), Oklahoma to Texas Junction, Texas (originally Platter) was completed on November 8, 1903. The St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company, by virtue of the agreement of July 8, 1902, became the owner of all the construction company's securities on January 1, 1904. On November 30, 1907 the property was deeded to the St. Louis and San Francisco Railroad Company.
Mr AB Dean got the first railroad
The Cairo & Fulton built thru Hope and had the first passenger train in 1872. In 1874 they were merged into St Louis Iron Mountain & Southern. Also in 1874 the line crossed the Red River and extended into Texas at what is now Texarkana.
I've not been able to find a date for when the SLSF arrived in Hope. All I could get was that it was here when the Lousiana & Arkansas built north from Stamps and was connected in 1903.
SLSF went on to Burlington Northern then BNSF. This is now run by Kiamichi.
The Louisana & Arkansas then KCS line in town is now a stub of the Kiamichi, with UP having trackage rights(not sure about what kind of arrangement). The majority of the line south to Stamps has been abandoned. With about 4 miles north from the current KCS line still in existance. The north end here in Hope still is used by Kiamichi to serve a feed mill on the south end of town.
How to score this:
Deggesty: Johnny You've got St Louis Iron Mountain &Southern, Missouri Pacific, UPKansas City Southern SLSF & Kiamichi.
Flying Crow You correctly identified The Cairo & Fulton. And corrected Johnny's transposition of the Louisana & Arkansas.
Rgds IGN
Cairo & Fulton
Still looking for the name of the 1st railroad into Hope. As I said the 1st railroad was merged into St Louis Iron Mountain & Southern.. The St L, I M & S was the 1st railroad into Texarkana, Ar.
Actually the original name of the Hope to Ardmore line of the SLSF was the St. Louis, San Francisco & New Orleans RR.
Johnny: As has been pointed out the correct name is Louisana & Arkansas.
Still looking for the 1st railroad name into Hope.
Deggesty narig01: The first passenger train arrived in Hope, Ar (where I now reside) in 1872. by 1903 there were 3 railroads in Hope and it had developed into a railroad junction. Please name the railroads and the successor companies, and current operators. Thx IGN I believe that the St. Louis Iron Mountain and Southern was the first one in; it became a part of the MP system, and is now a part of the UP. The Arkansas and Louisiana was the next one; it was absorbed by the KCS, which apparently operates it as far as Anthony. The third line seems to have been the SLSF, and is now operated by the Kiamichi, which also has trackage rights over the KCS line (according to SPV).
narig01: The first passenger train arrived in Hope, Ar (where I now reside) in 1872. by 1903 there were 3 railroads in Hope and it had developed into a railroad junction. Please name the railroads and the successor companies, and current operators. Thx IGN
The first passenger train arrived in Hope, Ar (where I now reside) in 1872. by 1903 there were 3 railroads in Hope and it had developed into a railroad junction.
Please name the railroads and the successor companies, and current operators.
I believe that the St. Louis Iron Mountain and Southern was the first one in; it became a part of the MP system, and is now a part of the UP. The Arkansas and Louisiana was the next one; it was absorbed by the KCS, which apparently operates it as far as Anthony. The third line seems to have been the SLSF, and is now operated by the Kiamichi, which also has trackage rights over the KCS line (according to SPV).
FlyingCrow The LOUISIANA & ARKANSAS ....and the "absorption" was the other way around. The L&A actually merged into and controlled the KCS under Harvey Couch. All the postwar streamline sleepers and the FM passenger units were actually owned by the L&A.
The LOUISIANA & ARKANSAS ....and the "absorption" was the other way around. The L&A actually merged into and controlled the KCS under Harvey Couch. All the postwar streamline sleepers and the FM passenger units were actually owned by the L&A.
narig01 It has been 5 days since I've seen any reply. So I will put out this question: The first passenger train arrived in Hope, Ar (where I now reside) in 1872. by 1903 there were 3 railroads in Hope and it had developed into a railroad junction. Please name the railroads and the successor companies, and current operators. Thx IGN
It has been 5 days since I've seen any reply. So I will put out this question:
When can we get an evaluation of the last response and either a new question or a definite answer and a new question?
My response to this question was posted on February 16.
ZephyrOverland passengerfan: Pullman Standard built the Daylights but Pacific Car and Foundry built a series of Baggage cars for the SP in 1962, my question was in what year did Amtrak purchase six I believe it was 1976 but can't find a definite information. I believe that Amtrak leased 15 of those PCF baggage cars but in 1983 took ownership of 6 of them in exchange for the ex-PRR George Washington and Alexander Hamilton. The SP planned to use those observation cars as part of their Business Car fleet. I'm not sure if those cars were actually converted. I remember seeing them in LA in 1984 still in their PRR markings.
passengerfan: Pullman Standard built the Daylights but Pacific Car and Foundry built a series of Baggage cars for the SP in 1962, my question was in what year did Amtrak purchase six I believe it was 1976 but can't find a definite information.
Pullman Standard built the Daylights but Pacific Car and Foundry built a series of Baggage cars for the SP in 1962, my question was in what year did Amtrak purchase six I believe it was 1976 but can't find a definite information.
I believe that Amtrak leased 15 of those PCF baggage cars but in 1983 took ownership of 6 of them in exchange for the ex-PRR George Washington and Alexander Hamilton. The SP planned to use those observation cars as part of their Business Car fleet. I'm not sure if those cars were actually converted. I remember seeing them in LA in 1984 still in their PRR markings.
OK, I'll try. Possiblyi these baggage cars were purchased during Amtrak's startup year, 1970?
narig01 ZO Was there a question out there? Rgds IGN
ZO Was there a question out there?
I think the question is from January 28 from Passengerfan.
What is the status of the most current question?
passengerfan Pullman Standard built the Daylights but Pacific Car and Foundry built a series of Baggage cars for the SP in 1962, my question was in what year did Amtrak purchase six I believe it was 1976 but can't find a definite information.
I think you are correct on red cars on the A train. I mentioned that some of the B MT-assigned arch roof cars came painted red, but they may also have been assigned to the A when I was not riding the system regularly. Also, there is some evidence that some of the R-10's, the first postWWII cars, were repainted red from their original two-tone greay with orange striping scheme before they were phased out. All; this red was deep red, not the bright red of the IRT "Red Birds" which was not their original color (in most cases) also..
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