To add to this discussion on the Empire State Express, there were several more destinations the train operated to:- Toledo - the Cleveland section was extended there for awhile in late 1946.- Chicago - In the mid-1960's, the Empire State Express went through a strange metamorphosis in reaction to NYC's determination to reduce and eventually eliminate passenger train miles:
#51 Westbound - (by timetable date):April 1965 - westbound #51 was officially a New York-Cleveland train with through Detroit cars being carried in #351 between Buffalo and Detroit. #351 in the consist listings is shown as an unnamed train, but this is not clarified in the schedules themselves.April 1966 - the Empire State Express is shown as a New York-Cleveland-Chicago schedule with through Detroit cars operating on #351 from Buffalo. Initially, no Chicago equipment is mentioned in the consist listings, but in the October 1966 timetable a Cleveland-Chicago coach is shown. There seems to be no through New York-Chicago through cars.December 1967 - (all train names were abolished, save for the James Whitcomb Riley). #51 becomes an unnamed Buffalo-Chicago overnight train via Cleveland and #351 an overnight Buffalo-Chicago overnight train via Detroit.#50 Eastbound - (by timetable date):April 1965 - eastbound #50 was officially a Detroit-Buffalo-New York train with no Cleveland cars. October 1965 - #50 gains a Chicago-New York sleeper and coach and a Cleveland-New York diner-lounge. These cars were operated in #222, an unnamed Chicago-Buffalo train via Cleveland. In the schedules, #222-50 is shown as one Chicago-New York schedule with the Empire State Express name in the column but in the consist listings the trains are listed separately. This arrangement lasts for one timetable period. April 1966 - #50 reverts to Detroit-Buffalo-New York only and #222 is hooked up to #96, an unnamed Buffalo-New York run. Neither #222 or #96 is shown in the consist listings. October 1966 - #222 is gone and #96 assumes #222's schedule and is now an unnamed Chicago-New York train. #50 becomes a Chicago-New York train operation via Detroit, but the Chicago-Detroit portion runs daily, except Saturday and Detroit-New York is daily. On Saturday, the Chicago-Detroit portion is covered by #366, the Motor City Special, which is now on a Saturday only schedule. There seems to be no through Chicago-New York cars.December 1967 - #50 becomes an unnamed Chicago-Detroit (Ex Saturday night-Sunday Morning) and Detroit-Buffalo (daily) train. Unnamed #366 is still covering the Saturday night-Sunday morning schedule.
Dave, the Boston-Albany connecting service to the Empire State Express you mention was always labeled Beeliner in the timetables even though South Station in Boston may have sub-labeled it as the Empire State Express Connection. This service lasted until 1959, when the train was cut back to a Boston-Springfield operation. That would be gone by 1960.As for connecting trains, there was a Buffalo-Toronto Empire State Express around WWI running via MC, TH&B and CP and was named as such in timetables.Mark, we await your question.
Iassumed you knew NYC, and the other destination is Boston. The Boston and Albany was the first New York Central Budd RDC "Beelienr" applciation, with Boston - Springfield service, off-peak, one car, inaugurated in October or November 1949. This was successful. Historically, the Empire State Express never had a westbound connection, becausse it was felt this would have to leave Boston too early in the morning. The faster schedules possible with the RDC;s prompted a one-car Budd early morning connection to Albany, whcih lasted several years and had an eastbound evening coumterpart. I think this run was discontinued at the same time as the downtown Albany Srtation was abandoned and the passenger pick-up and drop-of moved to Rennsealaer.
But your suggestions likewise seem to fit the situation. On the train departure board at South Station, the Beeliner was posted as the Empire State Express Connection.
I look forward to your question.
daveklepper I amy have to give you the award, but Niagra Falls was not a destination that I was thinking about/ Was the connecting train really marketed as a connection specifically to and from the ESE?
I amy have to give you the award, but Niagra Falls was not a destination that I was thinking about/ Was the connecting train really marketed as a connection specifically to and from the ESE?
Dave, my 1954 OG shows Niagra Falls as one of the destinations of the ESE. However I believe the Falls was actually reached by a connecting Beeliner from Buffalo.
We obviously should have included New York City since it was the destination the eastbound ESE.
daveklepper The arrival a specific type of equipment made a fourth destination possible, but was not as succesful as hoped, and was discontiniued several years before the ESE itself was discontiinued. Can you name that destination and possibly even the equipment?
The arrival a specific type of equipment made a fourth destination possible, but was not as succesful as hoped, and was discontiniued several years before the ESE itself was discontiinued.
Can you name that destination and possibly even the equipment?
This is just a SWAG but could the 4th destination be Hamilton or possibly a through coach pulled by a Beeliner to Watertown, Ogdensburg, Massena or even Bay City.
Mark
When the train was heavyweight, it ran only NY-GCT - Buffalo. Ab out the first year of lightweight Budd equipment operaton (inaugurated on Pearl Harbor Day!) these remained the end-points. But equipment utilization during WWII was the main reason it was extended further west in two secitons, to Cleveland and Detroit, and these extensions were popular enough for retention after WWII.
daveklepper The New York Central's Empire State Express had four destinations under the Empire State Express name, with one reached by a dedicated across-the-platform connection to and from a defined Empire State Express connection. What were the four destinations during the history of the this train?
The New York Central's Empire State Express had four destinations under the Empire State Express name, with one reached by a dedicated across-the-platform connection to and from a defined Empire State Express connection. What were the four destinations during the history of the this train?
Buffalo - Niagra Falls - Cleveland - Detroit/Mackinac City
Those are the two I was looking for Dave, The Alabama Central Ry. had only 6 miles of trackage and the 16.2 mile Alabama Central RR wasn't much longer. Let's have the next question.
Alabama Central Railroad, Alabama Central Railway
One is current (I think) and one was abandoned in 1961.
The other (Utah Central Railway) was merged. Not the interurban. But I'll keep on looking.
Dave, good guess but these are not the roads I'm looking for. You're right about the Utah Central RR being a current road. With respect to the other road, I believe you are thinking of the Utah Idaho Central Ry which was an interurban running some 90+ miles between Ogden and Preston.
The two roads I'm thinking of were much shorter and were located in a state far east of Utah.
Utah Central Railroad (current I think) Utah Central Railway (not current, I think)
Here's a new question. As we all know, at one time there were a number of railroads whose names were that of a state followed by the word, Central. The largest of these were the New York Central and the Illinois Central.
The two shortest of the "Centrals" were named for the same state, their only distinction being that one was the Xxxx Central Railroad and the other Xxxx Central Railway. What were the names of these two shortlines?
The last three words of the third paragraph and the fourth paragraph in the previous post should be one sentence. Don't know if they got separated through computer glitch or operator error, but they make more sense if read together as one sentence (as they should be.
Sorry for the confusion.
Go to it, Mark!
Bob Hanson
Mark, I'm going to quit beating this dead horse and give you credit for the answer as you've answered a good portion of the question correctly.
The contract was not only with the Southern, but with the A&WP, WofA, and L&N. The contract was lost, but not to anyone, but because in 1907 Congress failed to renew the appropriation for the train's continued operation.
As to the profitability of the train, I do not know. It was an expedited service - a special train put on for the Post Office Department - with no intermediate stops except for those necessary for servicing the train. I would be absolutely astounded if the POD did not pay a substantial premium for this service. Did it cover costs? Who knows? I do know
The loss of revenue resulting from the discontinuance of the train was not significant enough to rate a mention in the annual reports of either the Southern or the A&WP.
So, mark - Take it away!
Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
AWP290 The Southern had little, if any, input on the decision to discontinue the train. I imagine that they'd have preferred to continue to operate it but cannot say for certain. Bob Hanson
The Southern had little, if any, input on the decision to discontinue the train. I imagine that they'd have preferred to continue to operate it but cannot say for certain.
I'll take another stab at this. Perhaps the Southern lost the mail contract to the Seaboard which had a competing line to Atlanta. IIRC In 1904 the Seaboard line to Birmingham was completed making still another route possible - RF&P to Richmond, SAL to Birmingham and L&N to New Orleans.
Actually I wouldn't be surprised if the Southern wasn't glad to get rid of No.97. I would think that the revenue from carrying 3-4 cars of mail in a special train was, at best, only marginally profitable. Couple that with the penalties the Postal Dept. imposed on the railroads for every minute the train was late at different points on its route. This often made for some pretty risky running and in fact the 97 derailed one other time in the same year it wrecked at the Stillhouse trestle.
The train did not terminate in Atlanta, it merely changed carriers. Neither did the Crescent or the Piedmont Limited which followed the same route. The addition or subtraction of cars does not alter the identity of a train. The Crescent in later years, on the West Point Route, carried only a couple of express cars and a coach or two, but it still carried the name of the Pullman-diner-observation carrying train of the late '30's and '40's and the numbers it had carried since the late 1890's - No.s 37-38.
The Crescent, on the Southern, was a shadow of its former self by this time but it was still the Crescent.
No. 97 carried that number through to New Orleans.
If it ran to New Orleans over the West Point Route to Montgomery and then the L&N to New Orleans, then my first answer, Atlanta, is correct, becaus from then on it was no longer a Soouthern train and can be considered a different train, particularly as the consist changed in Atlanta. I assumed that the train was discontinued because it became Southern's prqactice to carry all mail on regular passenger trains when possible and not run pure head-end trains. The other reason might have been the popularity of the song!
Mark -
You are correct as to the remainder of the route. L&N did carry the train from Montgomer, through Mobile, and on to New Orleans.
You are incorrect on the date and reason for the discontinuance. Remember, this was a mail train, used primarily for carrying the mail for the US Post Office Department (now US Postal Service.)
Faster schedules had nothing to do with the discontinuance, to my knowledge.
Bob.
After leaving WRofA tracks No.97 would have continued on to NO over the L&N. 1905 is still my guess as its discontinuance. I don't have ready access to SR schedules that far back so I can only take a SWAG as to why it was discontinued. I'll guess that the SR introduced a new or speeded up passenger train which carried the mail between Washington and NO perhaps running via Chattanooga and thence to NO on the Queen and Crescent route.
To clarify - New orleans has not been ruled out. It was mentioned, but the guess in that post was Birmingham, although both Memphis and New Orleans had been mentioned. The guess was Birmingham, though.
You're on the right track, Mark. The West Point Route did handle the train south (or west, if you prefer) of Atlanta. The consist changed there, as the West Point added a coach and, in 1906, a Pullman to the train.
Montgomery was in the route, but not the terminal. Since two people have mentioned it, and apparently thought it had been guessed and rejected (it wasn't) I'll give you New Orleans as the terminal point.
Okay - what was the rest of the route, when was the train discontinued, and why?
This is proving tougher than I imagined. I thought this crowd would knock this one out of the park.
AWP290 No, the terminal point was not Birmingham, and it did not remain a Southern Railway train beyond Atlanta (though it did retain its number.) Bob Hanson, Loganville, GA
No, the terminal point was not Birmingham, and it did not remain a Southern Railway train beyond Atlanta (though it did retain its number.)
As I understand it New Orleans has been ruled out as the train's destination. Based on this hint, the most logical destination would be Montgomery via the West Point route from Atlanta.
One other possibility is conceivable. The GS&F at one time had a train No.95 that ran from Atlanta to Florida. This suggests there may also have a been a train No.97 which could have run to Jacksonville.
I seem to recall that the SR's No.97 ran for only two years after the wreck at the Stillhouse trestle. If I'm right this would make 1905 the year it was discontinued. If Florida was indeed its destination its discontinuance was probably due to the ACL or SAL's ability to offer faster service over their more direct routes.
Dave mentioned New Orleans and Memphis, but guessed Birmingham. No, the final destination was not South Carolina.
The consist of 97 changed at Atlanta, so both of your sources could be correct. In fact, at one time the train carried six cars out of Atlanta, according to contemporary newspaper accounts.
The crack passenger trains were already carrying the mail when 97 was inaugurated. It was an attempt to expedite the mail by eliminating virtually all but service stops.
The several sources I've looked to for info on the 97 are in conflict on two points. One says it was a four car train and another says five cars. All agree it was a mail train carrying only the train crew and mail clerks, no passengers. As to destination one source lists Atlanta, another New Orleans and a third South Carolina. Since Atlanta has been ruled out and Dave has already mentioned New Orleans, I'll go with the South Carolina destination and say Charleston. If not Charlestojn then Columbia.
Possibliy the train was discontiniued when mail started to be carried regularly by the crack passenger trains, such the the Crescent and the Piedmont Limited.which matched the speed 97 or improved on it. If 97 ran beyond Atlanta and remained a Southern Train, then Birmingham, AL would be a logical destination, or New Orleans, or possibly Memphis, but the latter two destinations may involve railroads that were allied to othe Southern but not yet part of that railroad. So my best guess is Birmingham.
You got part of the answer to the first part of the question. The train did not terminate in Atlanta.
It was gone long before the Great Depression.
The locomotive was Ten-Wheeler No. 1102 and was scrapped in 1935, although this was not part of the question.
Some years ago I was at a railroad memorabilia show where one of the exhibitors had on display what was reported to be the air-brake stand from the 1102. If this could be verified that item would be a major exhibit at a railroad museum.
I would guess Washington - Atlanta via the Southern Main Line. I first rode the Southern in 1942, age ten, but had already heard and was taught to sing the song at the summer camp that I began attending in 1938, age six. I think I asked about the train 97 and told there was not one under that name operating at the time. If there was one, the conductor probably thought I was referring to passenger-carrying trains only, but I think he meant the general catagory. Possibly it was taken off during the beginning of the Depression, say 1931? I still know the entire song by heart.
The engine number was something like 1022 or 1012, and 97 was the number of the train, so the published liyrics really need altering: "Engine 1022 was a fast locomotive, fastest on the Southern Lines...."
For the next question, we'll travel back in time about 50 years and 1000-1500 miles geographically.
Most of us have heard the folk ballad, "The Wreck of Old Ninety-Seven."
Theee-part question:
What was the route taken by mail train 97? (End points and carriers involved, please.)
In what year was the train taken off?
Why?
This shouldn't be too difficult for this group of knowledgeable rail enthusiasts.
The information is most acceptable. There was a fantrip in April 1952, but there was another in November, and the papers stated that was the last steam operation of the New Haven. Locomotives retained as snow melers don't count, because they are not revunue runs, but certainly the Portland and Eastern use was a revenue run, so you are the winner for sure.
In addition to yours truly, Stan Barriger the III was also on that November trip. Unless my memory is more confused than usual and after 55 years I am confusing the date. One way to check would be when the PRR Budd equipment was inaugurated on the Senator. I could not miss an important class at MIT that Saturday morning, so missed the best part of the trip, the southwest run via Wiilimantic, and used the Senator, with its new Budd equipment, to New Haven to at least enjoy the return trip, which I did. If I remember correctly, the Budd equipment was inaugurated with the summer timetable and was not available in April.
I can only cite Swanberg's New Haven Power. He says that the 3016 was used on "one more steam fan trip on July 19, 1953, over a year after the official 'last steam runs' with I-4's 1372 and 1388 in April, 1952."
The 3006, 3016, and 3020 were retained as snow-melters and served in this capacity until they were set aside in July of 1956. In this sporatic service they outlasted the two Van Nest Shop 0-6-0T's.
The three snow-melters were still on hand in the spring of 1958 when Columbia Pictures came asking the New Haven to use its trains and line (including a steam locomotive) for the forthcoming movie.
The 3016 was selected and sent to Cedar Hill roundhouse for inspection and repairs to make it at least temporarily operational and was used in the film.
The 3016 and her two snow-blowing mates went to Luria Brothers in the fall of 1958 and were scrapped shortly thereater.
Again, all my information comes from Swanberg's book as I have almost no other info on New Haven steam power and am about 1000 miles removed from any first-hand information. If I hadn't seen the movie recently, I doubt if I would have had an answer.
If this information is acceptable, I'll ask the next question, if not, that's okay, too. This is simply a trivia game - nothing to get excited about.
Peace.
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