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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, February 3, 2014 4:13 AM

Note that one hint should have been a giveway, since one railroad was involved in three cases and ran its own trains on the rapid transit system.   Also one has a link to the tunnel question.   Do you realliy need more hints?

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, February 2, 2014 3:24 PM

Hudson and Manhattan had its own RofW through Mnhattan Transfer, and anyway, it was defined legally as a railroad until PATH took over, and no longer used railroad trackage.   NYW&B was a suburban railroad.   It did not run on any rapid transit trackage, but did have across-platform-transfer to the 3rd Ave. Elevated's Willis Ave. Shuttle.   SIRT was a subsidary of the B&O and ran on B&O-SIRT tracks, with no break in ownership at any point.

Hint:  All railroads that are part of the national freight system are railroads.   The South Shore is an interurban line, but it is also a railroad.   Ditto, Sacramento Northern  -  was.  Ditto Waterloo CederFalls and northern and also Crandic.   Possibly Indiana Railroad, but definitely not Cincinnati and Lake Erie and cerainly not West Penn   None of these figiure in the answer, however.    There is a tie to the elevated train tunnel question also.

The demonstration rides, which took place about every two hours all day, had the R32's taking passenge from GCT to temporry wood stairs in Mott AHaven Yard (a yard that doesn't really exist today).  I rode it.   You got one right answer.

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Posted by narig01 on Sunday, February 2, 2014 7:18 AM
1. Railroad with a streamlined. New York Central and the 20th Century Limited The rapid transit the above mentioned R-32 excursion.

2. PATH - Hudson Manhattan connected at Manhattan Transfer. The transfer was first initiated I think for Pennsy passengers to continue on to Manhattan. Then after the North River tunnels were opened as a connection. Hudson Manhattan shared trackage thru the Bergen cut I think. Still share Penn Station in Newark.

3. New York Westchester and Boston (?)


4. Is this the Staten Island Railway. It is kind of rapid transit but is still classed as a railway by FRA IIRC.

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Posted by NorthWest on Saturday, February 1, 2014 10:58 PM

4. Hudson and Manhattan Lines (later PATH)?

More hints would be really helpful.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, February 1, 2014 10:04 PM

Do you need further hints?

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, February 1, 2014 1:08 PM

1.... The railroad with the streamliner:  This "passenger service" with rapid transit-cars lasted only a short time and was definitely a one-time affair.  It could be repeated today with one end-point slighly different, and the old endpoint never did see any other (to my  knowledge) trains with passenger inside, although many many passed near by, still do, and hopefully will continure forever, under electric power.

2.   The railroad that had a connecting train to that then-steam-hauled limited reached it over tracks of the rapid transit lines that in turn operated or supplied rapid transit equipment for three of the passenger-carrying services of the question.   One was a regularly service, and there was a long laps of this service, but then it was reinstated with the rapid transit system owning the entier route.   The end point stations for the reinstated service are the same.  Not true for any intermediate stations,   The second was for a particular group of people for several years, and there were many of them.  With their special tickets, they could also ride regular trains with the railroad's regular equipment if schedules were more convenient for them.  Could not be done today.  The third was for one day only, beginning early in the morning and lasting until evening.  Special tickets were sold, but anyone could buy them, but nealy all were from one specific segment of the population, and again there were many. Many regular trains were rerouted to avoid interference with the special service.  Could not be done today. 

3.  This railroad continued to provide passenger service over the line after the rapid transit system's use of its line ceased, but some intermediate poinrts were not served and fares were higher.   Very little of the trackage used by this service remains today, even though part of the area served is served by rapid transit.  The little bit of rapid-transit trackage used by this service that remains is heavily used by other services.

4.   This service had alternating trains of rapid transit and railroad mu equipment, with the railroad's equiipment a more modern design.  Today, one can go completely by rapid transit between the same endpoint stations, but a short connecting link  that permitted through service has  been missing a long time.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, January 30, 2014 12:37 PM

All these moves were on electrified tracks.   All were on tracks regularly used by regularly scheduled pasenger service for at least 95% of the specific runs, for some the entire run.  I rode either rapid transit trains and/or trains run by the railroad for all these cases, at least partly on the same tracks used by these five or six services.  Not more than one coiuld be duplicated exactly today because of abandonments and  relocations.   But one can be done exactly.

I mentioned one railroad had a crack intercity streamliner that once used steam for a portion of its run, and now I will add that one of the other railroads that saw passenger carrying rapid transit cars on its line once scheduled a fast train specifically to connected with that intercity express train.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, January 30, 2014 3:57 AM

One of your answers is correct.   Please reread the question and look at all your answers and you will see which one exactly fits the definition.  You are missing some of the well-known ones that have been discussed in many railfan publications and books, particularly those devoted to electric railways in all forms.       Again, some of the answers should be obvious to those who know transit and electric railway history.

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Posted by narig01 on Thursday, January 30, 2014 2:04 AM
Dave : Not sure if this is what your looking for. In the early 1960's when NYCTA was receiving R-32's a charter of R-32's was run on the New York Central with the subway cars out of Grand Central I think. They did a temp fix with the 3rd rail shoes to run them from what I remember hearing.
Also slightly in that category also San Francisco Muni 178 was up in Chico for a time after BAERA bought it from Muni and I do remember seeing pictures of 178 there.
During WWII the 2nd Av el cars were used somewhere besides Richmond. Salt Lake City? And also once again locomotive hauled somewhere. (IIRC)

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 10:16 AM

daveklepper

I  thought that the prohibition of streetcar tracks on Michigan Avenue had always been in effect.   The information that there was a cablecar track, even just for two blocks, surprises me.

It surprised the people building the parking garage under Michigan Avenue in the 1960s, too.  The Chicago Park District was formed in 1893, the year after the cable track was laid.  In service until 1906, they weren't actually removed until the garage was built.  CSL and later CTA used a turnback loop on Garland Court, midway between Wabash and Michigan.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 9:16 AM

I  thought that the prohibition of streetcar tracks on Michigan Avenue had always been in effect.   The information that there was a cablecar track, even just for two blocks, surprises me.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 9:09 AM

Continuing with this theme, there were five arangements (possibly six) in the United States when trains built exclusively for rapid transit service carried pasengers over electrically operated tracks of Class I railroads (I am not aboslutely certain about the Class I status of one railroad,) either in regularly scheduled service or a special service, not railfan specials.  Alll the railroads were part of the national frieght network.  You must know four to answer, and one is on a railroad that operated one of the USA's crack streamliners, a long distance train that operated at one time behind steam.  Undoubtadly at  times on a track used by the rapid transit car passenger train movements.  In all cases except one there was level boarding of the rapid transit cars. For one case special steps were provided at one destination.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 7:13 AM

South Side Rapid Transit. (Don't forget the period,it was on the letterboard of all of the cars).  SSRT shared the Loop with the Lake Street Elevated Railway[.] and the Metropolitan West Side Elevated Railway for about a year before electrification.  SSRT and MWSE shared the inner loop operating clockwise, LSER operated counterclockwise on the outer loop.  in 1900, after SSRT electrified, the Northwestern Elevated Railway joined the loop, sharing the outer track with Lake St.  By the time the North Shore arrived, all of the companies were operating under the name Chicago Elevated Railways (Collateral Trust), though the underlying companies remained intact into the 1920s at least.

The cable line was the Chicago City Railway.  The CCRY's Wabash avenue line and State Street line had originally shared a double track loop on Madison, Wabash, Lake and State which may have been the Loop before the L loop was built.  In 1893 the State and Wabash loops were separated, with State retaining the original loop, and Wabash looping via Madison, Michiganand Randolph back to Wabash.  This setup involved a two block stretch between Madison and Randolph where the cable cars ran left-handed to avoid having to cross the slots.  The Lake St. L built to Wabash in 1895, covering part of the Wabash loop, and the second leg was completed in 1897, covering the State loop's northeast corner, the left-hand double track stretch and the entire Wabash line south to Van Buren.  SSRT's connection covered Wabash south from Van Buren to Harrison after the Van Buren and Fifth Ave. (Wells St) sides were completed.

Dave, you're welcome to the next question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, January 29, 2014 1:56 AM

I know State Street had cable operation, but I am unsure whether you mean Congress, Wabash, Lake, or Wells for the Chicago Loop "side" that had a cable-car line under the elevated structure.  Southside "L" converted to electric operation with MU'S after one of the others converted with electric locomotive, I think Metropolitan or Northwest.   I think, but am not certain, that Lake Street elevated was the last holdout for steam.   And the added company, long afterward, was of course the Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee.   So the place was the Chicago Loop.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, January 28, 2014 8:25 PM

So separate out the place where steam shared with two electrics for a time.  If it helps there was a fourth company later,after steam operation ended.  For at least part of the shared line, there was a cable car operation below.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, January 28, 2014 4:51 PM

The LIRR continued summer steam operation to Coney Island over the Culver Line tracks used simultaneously by Brooklyn United and then BRT elevated rapid transit trains and local streetcars,,, also to Sands Street Termiinal on electrified elevated tracks.   New York and New England trains came into Manhattann over the Putnam Line Bridge and terminated at the 155th Street 9th (and 6th) Avenue elevated liine terminal (actuallly at 155th and 8th Ave.) untill the el was extended over the bridge to connect with the Jerome Avenue structure of the Lexington Avenue Subway (but the el provided the first service).   Chicago's elevated lines were electrified at different times, some after they all began sharing the downtown Loop, making for mixed steammm and electric operation on the Loop.   The 9th and 6th Avenue elevateds were converted to electricity at different times, making for mixed operation on tracks they shared south of Rector Street to South Ferry.   Ditto 2nd and 3rd Avenue, mixed south of Chatham Square to S. F.   Suburban Transit, running its own trains from 129th Street to Treemont Avenue, The Bronx,  was the last of the "Manhattan" elevateds to be  converted, converted with through operation of 3rd Avenue trains, but before that its steam shared the tracks at the 129th Street station

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, January 28, 2014 12:49 PM

Continuing steam elevated railways...  This company's steam operation shared track with two other elevated railways, both of which were electrified.

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Posted by NorthWest on Monday, January 27, 2014 10:23 AM

RC gets it.

Although, Dave, thank you for that information. I forgot about Brooklyn not being part of NYC at the time.

RC, your turn!

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, January 27, 2014 9:35 AM

This was not the third elevated, becaise originally, the 2nd 3rd, 6th, and 9th Ave.elevateds in Manhattan were all different elevated companies, and Brooklyn had two major elevated companies, Chicago four.  It wasn't the third city, because Brooklyn and New York were separate cities then.  The villages in Queens s were separate communities.  Soux City was thus the fourth city with steam-powered elevated trains.  And the 11th company!   

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, January 27, 2014 6:18 AM

Sioux City South Dakota.  The Sioux City Elevated Railway was a mixed elevated and surface operation that opened with Forney-type engines in 1891, was electrified in 1892.  I can't find photos, but I'm fairly certain the line was operated from trolley wire (with so-called "locomotive cars" and trailers, not MU cars). The lines promotors went bankrupt after the panic of 1893, and at least the elevated section of the line was abandoned around 1899.  Like many contemporary cable and streetcar lines, it was largely built for real estate promotion.  Sioux City also had cable cars.

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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:50 PM

Thanks,

An easy one to keep it moving:

This city was home to the third steam powered elevated, and seems an unlikely location. Name the city.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, January 26, 2014 4:05 PM

NorthWest

Great Northern Railway.

IIRC, the British GNR received 20 H-1 2-6-0s from Baldwin around 1900. The US GNR had many built by Baldwin.

Excellent!  I had to verify that both of them used "Railway".  GNR (UK) was grouped into the LNER (London North Eastern) in 1923, and GN (USA) merged into Burlington Northern in 1970.

All yours, NorthWest!

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Posted by NorthWest on Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:32 PM

Great Northern Railway.

IIRC, the British GNR received 20 H-1 2-6-0s from Baldwin around 1900. The US GNR had many built by Baldwin.

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:25 PM

The Baldwin Locomotive works was known as one of the world's largest.  In the ealy 1900s it built locomotive orders for two railways with the same corporate name in different parts of the world.  What was the railways' common name?

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, January 24, 2014 10:04 AM

I remember seeing "Nautilus II" parked at IC's 18th Street coach yard from the Outer Drive.  Rcdrye, your question.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, January 23, 2014 12:12 PM

Nautilus II was the lightweight car that replaced a custom-built heavyweight car Nautilus in 1957.  The original Nautilus carried 18 tons of seawater.  Maybe C&O and Budd built the tank too small on the Chessie...

Nautilus II was converted from C&EI lunch counter lounge car #602.  No mention of what was on the menu after Shedd acquired it.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, January 23, 2014 10:04 AM

Speaking of fish, the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago used to own a private car for the transportation of exotic fish and other sea creatures.  What was the name of this car.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 11:13 AM

I was thinking of the fish tank.  The tank itself worked OK, but the fish got motion sick.  The problem with the projector was ultimately solved, as C&O (and later B&O) showed movies in the Dining car after dinner during the 1960s.  Few of the Chessie's special design features were used by the cars' later purchasers.  On the otherhand C&O's castoffs from the Chessie and the giant Pullman-Standard order helped a fair number of low-budget operations get new cars in the early 1950s

CSS, your question.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 10:24 AM

The feature that failed was the fish's survival?

I thought it was motion picture projection, where the vibration caused the projector to jitter and be unable to project a stable image and low-distortion sound from an optical sound track.

Another C&O sleeper destination:  White Sulfur Springs

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Wednesday, January 22, 2014 10:08 AM

I would guess that the feature in question was the fish tank in the lounge car.  In fairness to the fish, the Chessie never ran since it was built for a market that didn't really exist (See B&O's experience with the original routing of the "Cincinnatian").

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul

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