NorthWest Willamette Locomotive Works. I think the Shay patents had expired when Willamette entered the business, however there were several differences between the types, one being the valve gear.
Willamette Locomotive Works. I think the Shay patents had expired when Willamette entered the business, however there were several differences between the types, one being the valve gear.
The Shay patents had expired. Even though the number of Willamette locomotives was small, the product was well thought of. Willamette also did good business repairng Shays and other geared locomotives, and built many donkey engines and one Spar Tower for the logging industry.
Establish communication with Dan Ranger, a vastly talented, widely experienced, highly skilled, Locomotive Fireman, switchman-foreman that I ran a couple of engines of his jobs at Ozol yard, administrater of a couple of tourist RR's and author of articles, TRAINS columns and at least one book, titled The Willamette Shay...... Definitive and out-of-print.....
Lima built geared locomotives on the Shay patents from the 1880s to the 1940s. In the 1920s, this west coast builder turned out 2 two-truck and 31 three-truck Shay copies, all of which sold in the logging industry.
That just about covers it. There were other through car routes, but you covered the through train routes. One thorugh car route was via Brewster and the Maybrook line. Also, for a while there was a streetcar Boston - Fall River boat connection, via the Boston Elevated and the Bay State Electric. This was a summer service using Bay State open-bench cars. The via-Springfield "Inland Route" was revived by Amtrak for a short time, and the ex-Roger Wiliiams Budd equipment was often used. Next question?
There were at least three whole-train through routes prior to tht current arrangment between Boston and New York.
The first was the through route cobbled together by the New York and New England and the New Haven via Middletown and Willimantic. This was the principal route from the 1860s until the first Thames River bridge was completed in 1889. The relatively slow route ran from Summer St Station in Boston to the first Grand Central in New York. A variation on this ran down the Harlem River line to the Oak Point yard where cars were barged to New Jersey for service to Philadelphia's Centennial exposition. Another, later variant ran via Waterbury and Hartford. Service of some sort lasted via this route until the 1956 hurricane.
The second route formed was via Springfield and the Boston and Albany. While connecting service dates back to before the Civil War, through car service began in the 1880s and lasted to the early 1950s. Alternate connection routes were via New London or Providence and Worcester, but not with through cars.
The shore line route was originally operated to Grand Central over the tracks of the New York and Harlem west of Woodlawn, NY. The Harlem River branch from New Rochelle was opened primarily for freight service. Its connection to the New York Connecting Railway on the completion of the Hell Gate Bridge in 1917 allowed through connecting passenger service via Penn Station.
Boston's Summer Street Station and the Boston and Albany's neighboring station morphed into South Station in the 1890s, also swallowing up the Old Colony's nearby station.
In addition to through service, Boat Train service was offered between Boston and New York connecting at various times at Fall River, Stonington and New London.
The history of through, whole-train service between Boston and New York is not as straightforward as one might suppose. Give the history, in each case describe both the New York City (Manhattan) terminal and the one in Boston, and the route (and railroads) followed between, up to the Penn Station - South Station via Hell Gate Bridge and the Shore Line route, that exists today.
The Morris Park line is the one I was looking for. IC's lakefront line was really just part of the Chicago terminal with electric switching.
The wrong answer is the West Side freight line, which did have milk trains and even a skelatel passenger service for more than a few years. The right answer is the Morris Park branch, a branch off the Harlem Division main line, in The Bronx, running east to interchange with the New Haven's Harlem River and Hell Gate Bridge branch and at one time serving some industries and/or coal and/or lumber yards. It may still exist, but I doubt that it is electrified today..
Or are you referring to the branch off the IC suburban and Markham Yard serving Chicago industries and other freight customers?
The 1957 date for last operation of Q.B. Rwy was found on several different sources. Not being a New York guy in general I have to rely on books and such.
As part of what was mainly a passenger electrification to comply with smoke abatement laws, this freight-only branch (no milk trains, either) was was also electrified.
Your answer is correct as I remember it, and there was also an elevator on Vernon Blvd, which I used on a Coney Island to Hastings streetcar trip, after the TATS "T" was bussed but puti-ins and pull-outs for K and 125th Crosstown still operated out of the Third and 65th TATS carhouse, allowing the bridge streetcar to be a link (with some walking on both sides) from the end of the Brooklyn Crosstown and Graham lines at LI City to a put-out K car, well-filled by the time it got to the regular route at 125th and 3rd with riders who prefered a streetcar to the M101 T-replacement bus.
A message from a fellow ERA member disputes the 1957 date, but I do remember it as 1957. Possibly you have some documentation, which would help me? In any case the next question is yours! Here is his meesage:
daveklepper (1) What was New York State's last public conveyance streetcar line, (2) in what year did its operation end, (3) what kind of equipment operated on it, (4) for whom was this equipment originally built (5) and by whom, (6) what new facility ended its operation, (7) and what rail options are availabe to go between end points and points on line today? Extra, give as much information as possible about the line's history and former equipment. and its several unique features.
(1) What was New York State's last public conveyance streetcar line, (2) in what year did its operation end, (3) what kind of equipment operated on it, (4) for whom was this equipment originally built (5) and by whom, (6) what new facility ended its operation, (7) and what rail options are availabe to go between end points and points on line today?
Extra, give as much information as possible about the line's history and former equipment. and its several unique features.
1) Queensborough Bridge Railway
2) 1957
3) Osgood-Bradley Master Units
4) Union Street Railway of New Bedford MA
5) Osgood-Bradley (Worcester MA)
6) New low-level bridge to Roosevelt Island
7) N and Q subway lines
The Q.B. Ry was the last remaining rail operation on the bridge. As built the bridge had tracks for the 2nd avenue Elevated and the streetcar tracks used at various times by TARS and other carriers as well as Steinway lines. There was a mid-bridge station for Roosevelt Island as well as the one on Manhattan, with street level operation into Queensborough Plaza.
daveklepper Dweight Eisenhower's inauguration?
Dweight Eisenhower's inauguration?
It was indeed Eisenhower's inauguration. A large part of the Ivy City coach yard and a smaller B&O yard were set up with dozens of mostly 12&1 Pullmans for overflow guests.
Dave got there first...
I too was thinking of Eisenhower's inauguration as a possibility but if that's not correct I'll say FDR's inauguration.
Mark
Nope. This one event beat out a bunch of annual ones, and required the use of most of a busy coach yard.
Not a one-time affair: Yearly. The Kentucky Derby
New question:
This event involved the largest use of Pullmans for stationary hotel service.
daveklepperI don't remember any high platforms at Ravinia. How did the "L" cars unload and load there? My travel is in the ususal Shore Line modernized steel equipment.
Near as I can tell from old photos they used step boxes. I'm pretty sure the use of L equipment on a large scale ended after CNS&M could operate their own cars. The early photos show L cars being pulled by GE 40-ton steeplecabs 450 or 451, which had low-mount Van Dorn couplers and air hoses for compatibility with L equipment and CNS&M's own cars. I'll have a new question in a couple of hours.
In any case, the next question is yours to ask. But I have a question concerning the Rpavinia service. I did attend a CSO conceret there in 1952, using the Q downtown from La Grange, and the North Shore to and from the concert, and fortunately was able to catch the last Aurora train home, after a ride on a North Shore Ravinia Special back to Adams and Wells Street. It was not as fast a trip as I wouldl have liked, because the portable headlight conked out about Winetka, and the engineer was dutifully cautious afterward. I don't remember any high platforms at Ravinia. How did the "L" cars unload and load there? My travel is in the ususal Shore Line modernized steel equipment.
When I attended Ravinia concerts in my 1967-1970 sojourn in Westmont, I drove. Did the C&NW run any special trains?
rcdryeCNS&M opened the Skokie Valley line in 1926, over which trains of NWERR successor Chicago Rapid Transit ran trains as far as Dempster Avenue in Skokie. The CRT service ended in 1948 but was revived after the abandonment of the CNS&M by CTA as the Skokie Swift.
The pre-Skokie Swift service was back on an earlier post...
rcdrye CNS&M regularly operated leased CRT equipment for Navy moves to and from Great Lakes Naval Training Center in Waukegan, and, less frequently, for the Army at Fort Sheridan, including occasional trips all the way to Milwaukee. CRT cars were also leased for Ravinia Park concerts. CNS&M also leased Chicago Aurora and Elgin equipment for Navy and Army specials. CA&E built a branch in 1926 under the corporate name of Chicago Westchester and Western that ran parallel to Mannheim Rd in Bellwood and Westchester, at the time mostly open fields. It was reached over CA&E-owned track from Laramie (52nd) Avenue in Chicago through Oak Park, Forest Park (present end of the Blue Line) and Maywood. CRT leased the CW&W from CA&E, which also had its own freight-only branch south on the other side of Mannheim Rd, built as the Cook County and Southern. The CC&S was also used by the joint CA&E/CRT funeral trains. CRT had various services on the Garfield Park line of the "Met" (Metropolitan Division, originally Metropolitan West Side Elevated Railway) to Laramie, Forest Park, and Westchester . All of his unwound between 1951 and 1957 as Westchester service was discontinued in 1951, CTA bought the CA&E line from Laramie to Des Plaines Ave, Forest Park, and through operation of CA&E trains to the loop ended in 1953. CA&E passenger service was discontinued in July of 1957. Between 1953 and 1958 the CTA and the Chicago Highway Department built what is now the Forest Park Branch of the Blue Line to replace the Garfield Park Line and operation over the CA&E. Most of the trains to the Eucharistic congress originated on the South Side lines, especially the Englewood branch. Passengers were expected to transfer off of Met or Lake cars in the Loop. I counted your Revinia (peacetime) use as separate from the wartime only Fort Sheradin and Great Lalkes service, but actually I had another service in mind. Before the North Shore rerouted its Milwaukee expresses off the Shore Line onto the Skokie Valley, the line did open from Howard Street to Demster Street in Skokie, as a CRT shuttle line. and this CRT-CTA service continued until well after WWII, ending I think before the Shore Line quite. North Shore trains continued to use the line and provide service to Demster Street. But this was another example of CRT-CTA service with their equipment over North Shore tracks. This operates today with different intermediate stations, as the Skokie Swift, a revival. But CTA owns the tracks now.
CNS&M regularly operated leased CRT equipment for Navy moves to and from Great Lakes Naval Training Center in Waukegan, and, less frequently, for the Army at Fort Sheridan, including occasional trips all the way to Milwaukee. CRT cars were also leased for Ravinia Park concerts. CNS&M also leased Chicago Aurora and Elgin equipment for Navy and Army specials.
CA&E built a branch in 1926 under the corporate name of Chicago Westchester and Western that ran parallel to Mannheim Rd in Bellwood and Westchester, at the time mostly open fields. It was reached over CA&E-owned track from Laramie (52nd) Avenue in Chicago through Oak Park, Forest Park (present end of the Blue Line) and Maywood. CRT leased the CW&W from CA&E, which also had its own freight-only branch south on the other side of Mannheim Rd, built as the Cook County and Southern. The CC&S was also used by the joint CA&E/CRT funeral trains. CRT had various services on the Garfield Park line of the "Met" (Metropolitan Division, originally Metropolitan West Side Elevated Railway) to Laramie, Forest Park, and Westchester . All of his unwound between 1951 and 1957 as Westchester service was discontinued in 1951, CTA bought the CA&E line from Laramie to Des Plaines Ave, Forest Park, and through operation of CA&E trains to the loop ended in 1953. CA&E passenger service was discontinued in July of 1957. Between 1953 and 1958 the CTA and the Chicago Highway Department built what is now the Forest Park Branch of the Blue Line to replace the Garfield Park Line and operation over the CA&E.
Most of the trains to the Eucharistic congress originated on the South Side lines, especially the Englewood branch. Passengers were expected to transfer off of Met or Lake cars in the Loop.
I
Rush hour Sea Beach service to Chambers St, along with RH service from Brighton, Culver, and West End lines to Chambers Street continued until the 1931 opening of the Nassau Cut, when the Nassau Loop service began, rush hours, Culver Express "via Bridge to Nassau Loop, via Tunnel to Brooklyn" and West End Local. "via Tunnel to Nassau Loop, via Bridge to Brooklyn." Meanwhile, the Jamaica service was extended two stops south to Broad and Nassau Streets.
Today, one can "almost" ride the joint service route, using the J train from Chambers or Canal or Essex to East New York - Eastern Parkway, all the original route, then transfering downstairs to the A Rockaway service, back on the original route after descending the ramp after the Rockaway Parkway Station on the Liberty Avenue elevated structure.
I would say that if nobody has any objections, I will pick RC as the winner to ask the next question.
The Putnam Bridge is not the answer for the sixth service, since the IRT bought the Putnam Bridge from the Central at the time the Putham Div. steam passenger service was cut back from the 155th and 8th elevated station to the Sedgewick Avenue station on the Bronx side of the bridge, and hte south track on the bridge was third-railed for a 155th - Segewick shuttle that coninued until the Segewick-Jerome Anders on Avenue tunnels were opened and the connection made to the Jerome Avenue elevated structure on River Street, leading into Jerome Avenue.
The sixth service was begun as a summer-only Broadway Ferry - Far Rockaway service, with switches from the E. Fulton Street elevated structure on the Jamaica elevated line, girders still visible from J and Z trains, to a ramp to join the LIRR Atlantic Avenue line, this ramp long removed. It was begun with LIRR tank engines and open-plaform coaches and similar equipment from Brooklyn United then the Brooklynn Rapid Transit. When the Williamsburg Bridge was opened, and New York City's first subway station opened at Essex and Delancy Street, 1903, the SECOND summer (1904) LIRR steel Gibbs cars (Along with almost identacle cars for the IRT, the first steel passenger cars), their first mus, replaced their steam trains, and new convertable steel and wood 1300 series mu gate cars replaced the BRT steam trains, all rerouted over the bridge. The subway off the Williiamsburg Bridge was extended to Canal Streeet and Chambers Street, and this joint operaton of LIRR trains on the BRT and BRT trains on the LIRR was extended to serve these two statiolns, along with full-time BRT service to Jamaica and Canarsie. When Far Rockaway LIRR trains began running directly to Pennsylvania Station, patronage on this summer joint service dropped sharply, and I think 1912 wa the last summer for it. Steel cars did not begin replacing the 1300'a in Williamsburg Bridge service until after WWI. However, in 1915, steel cars over the Manhattan Bridge frolm the Sea Beach line began running into Chambers Street untiil a few years later when they were diverted o 14th St. Union Square and then to Times Square.
daveklepperThe 6th is related to my tunnel question that was answered. It started with alternate train of the railroad and the rapid transit iine, with both using tank engines and open-platform coaches, but not using the tunnel and connecting to ferry boars instead, then extended to the tunnel's station, with steel cars alternating with gate elevated cars, then extended for two more stations, and the terminated because patronage fell off after a giant improvement for the railroad elsewhere, away from the first subway tunnel and station.
Sorry I hadn't got around to this, I've been busy.
I think this is the Putnam Bridge, converted in 1918 from railroad to elevated operation.
RC, good job on the Chicago area railroads! I hadn't thought of them.
The Eucharistic Congress was one example of the three I am lookiing for with respect to CRT and CNS&M. The CNS&M was legally a Class I railroad and particpated in the national freight networrk. Chicaago Rapid Transit was not, because its freight operation was directliy for the Milwaukee, and that railroad reported to the ICC, the CRT did not. The CRT did not have "Reporting Marks," but the North Shore did.
The other two should be well known and RC should do the homework and tell us about them. One service is operating today. Most of its route was built and owned by the Nofrth Shore. It stopped running before the Norh Shore quit, quite a few years before, and was revived some years after. The the third ran will elevated cars for a particular period in USA history, and often gate cars were used.
The CRT, then briefly the CTA was involved another fourth operation over the racks of a different railroad that is no longer with us. It reached a CRT branch line shuttle not reached by the CRT's own tracks.
That gets us four of the six. The fifth was the R32 operation out of GCT. The 6th is related to my tunnel question that was answered. It started with alternate train of the railroad and the rapid transit iine, with both using tank engines and open-platform coaches, but not using the tunnel and connecting to ferry boars instead, then extended to the tunnel's station, with steel cars alternating with gate elevated cars, then extended for two more stations, and the terminated because patronage fell off after a giant improvement for the railroad elsewhere, away from the first subway tunnel and station.
Gate car and closed vestibule CRT trains ran to the Congress at Mundelein from nearly all branches of the CRT network, not just from the Loop. And Milwaukee North Shore Line service was relocated to the Shore Line so the Skokie Valley Line could be used exclusively for the special trains of CRT equipment.
Unless I'm totally off base, Dave has been trying to point to the joint CM&StP, CRT and CNS&M operation on the north side of Chicago.
Line was built by the Chicago Evanston and Lake Superior, got as far as Linden Ave. in Wilmette, was leased by and later merged into the Chicago Milwaukee and St. Paul. In 1904 or 1905 the Chicago and Milwaukee Electric began operating over the CM&St P as far south as Davis St. in Evanston where passengers changed to CM&StP steam trains.
In 1908 the Northwestern Elevated began operation over the CM&StP between Wilson Avenue in Chicago and Central St. in Evanston, overlapping with the C&ME between Church St (one block north of Davis) and Central. CM&St.P continued to operate steam passenger trains until the NWERR service began, continued to operate steam freight service on the same tracks. NWERR service was extended to Linden Avenue in 1910. Originally the entire line was equipped with overhead wire, but as the line was raised to its present elevation and rebuilt the third rail was gradually extended to Howard St, the northern limit of Chicago. Wire remained up over the westernmost track until the end of freight operations, with gauntlet track on the section that was third rail equipped south of Granville Ave.
This arrangement remained in place until 1919 when the C&ME's successor Chicago North Shore and Milwaukee got trackage rights over the NWERR to the loop. In 1920 the NWERR contracted to provide freight service on behalf of CM&StP on the portion of the CM&StP north of Buenna Park (just south of Wilson). CNS&M opened the Skokie Valley line in 1926, over which trains of NEWRR successor Chicago Rapid Transit ran trains as far as Dempster Avenue in Skokie. The CRT service ended in 1948 but was revived after the abandonment of the CNS&M by CTA as the Skokie Swift.
CNS&M had the famous streamlined Electroliners, and had limiteds (esp. the Eastern Limited) scheduled to connect with the Twentieth Century Limited and other tains at LaSalle St. in Chicago.
Ownership of the underlying tracks remained with the CM&StP until the mid 1950s, with CRT continung freight service until 1973 with the original NWERR locomotives.
The event Dave must be referring to was the 1926 Eucharistic conference at Mundelein, where CRT and CNS&M cooperated to move over a hundred thousand people in a single day using CRT equipment operating on the CNS&M.
Just one more hint: NJT should have learned something from one of the three situations where the same railroad and rapid transit situation were involved, with respect to how they should have handled the Superbowl. Both the transit system and the railroad were complimented.
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