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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:15 PM

Before asking the next question, can you be specific as which of these systems, to the best of your knowledge, Sprague actually designed, and on which he basically was a consultant to the actual designers?   My own understanding is that Sprague did the basuc design on all these controls except the last, the GE pneumatic cam, but did consult on that control also.   You mentioned a lo voltage control cable for circuit-breaker control.  But the type M was basically line voltage control, and the control circuits were high voltage, if I remember correctly.   The 1904 Gibbs cars, both LIRR and IRT, used line voltage controlers, and the first low voltage control cars in the New York area were the Hudson and Manhattan cars that were tested on the 2nd Avenue elevated before opening the first H&M line in 1908.   Sillwell designed the H&M cars and then the BMT steel cars.  The IRT then ordered low-voltage control cars and even converted some high-voltage control cars to low-voltage, but they had to operate as a separate group.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 10:35 AM

Let's see if this can be simplified a bit...

Sprague's initial control used pilot motors to control a type "L" controller.  His system worked pretty much like an elevator control in that the control position switched from "On" to start the motors through the acceleration to "Off" which more or less rewound the controller.  There were also relays to control forward and reverse, and to reset the circuit breakers. On South Side Sprague cars, the relays were under the bench seat behind the operator's cab, and are reported to have been fairly loud.

The next Sprague version was type M, which used a motor controlled cam to open and close switches. The principal difference from the operators point of view was that the type M had "notches" rather than on/off control, usually "Switching", "Series, and Parallel".  There were a couple of different versions of the type M, depending on whether the contacts were arranged in a line or in a circle, with the circular version known as "Turret" controls. Type M was used in new cars with modifications into the late 1940s.  Almost all CA&E cars, and most Chicago Rapid Transit wooden cars had type M control.

Type M and Sprague controls cold interwork with a low-voltage jumper connection for the breaker reset. Chicago's South Side Rapid Transit did this with success.  (It's actually a little more complicated than just a low-voltage jumper - I'll just have to dig around for the full explanation.) 

Westinghouse marketed the "Unit Switch",  which used magnetically controlled pneumatic switches, using current limiting relays rather than a cam.  Westinghouse had versions with both hand and automatic acceleration, whereas all type M's were automatic..

The decoder ring for Westinghouse Unit Switch

A - Automatic acceleration

H - Hand (Manual) acceleration

B - Battery powered

L - Line powered

F - Field Control

M - pin assignment and extra lead for interworking with GE Type M

Put it together and you get HLF controls on CNS&M steel passenger cars and most Baldwin-Westinghouse freight motors (most of the rest had HL), and ABLFM on Chicago Rapid Transit 4000 series, which were expected to operate on line power on the Met Division, and train with wooden cars with M control on all divisions.  Although it might work, training ABLFM with Type M with Sprague in the same train was not, to my knowledge, ever used in regular service by Chicago Rapid Transit.

GE's replacement for the M was the PC (Pneumatic Cam) which replaced the pilot motor on the type M with electropneumatic control of the cam.  PC type controls could work with Westinghouse AB or AL controllers.  Boston Center Entrance cars had both PC-10 and AB types, but crews didn't like to mix them as the accelleration characteristics were slightly different.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:04 AM

Frank Julian Sprague invented two competing forms of multiple unit control.  Each, by the proper details, could operate successfully with the other.   What were the differences between the two types and why were two different types invented?  Further details welcome.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:14 AM

So ask away...

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 8:01 AM

And the LV Poughkeepsie Bridge Boston car DID also go via Canada, between St. Clair abd Niagra Falls, like the NY car. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 7:58 AM

And at one time, I am pretty sure, there was a GTW-CN-CV-B&M car via St. Clair, Toronto, Montreal, White River Junction.   I remember reading that once upon a time, Concord, NH, had a through sleeper via Canada to Chicago.   Very unlikely that it originated in Concord, however.    Must have been a two night trip, however!

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 7:30 AM

Still has to go via Canada!  We're looking for the Boston car.  It shares part of the route with the LV car, but doesn't involve the LV...

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 7:20 AM

Between the 1912 opening of the Poughkeepsie River Bridge and the 1918 opening of the Hell Gate Bridge, a through Pullman Grand Trunk Western - Lehigh Valley - L:ehigh and New England - New Haven Chicago -Boston car was operated.   Willks-Barre or Strausberg was the LV-L&NE hand-off point, and probably Maybrook or Campbell Hall L&NE-NYNH&H

The car was replaced by several via the Hell Gate Bridge and the PRR, really serving a different but larger market.  There may have been some overlap until the USA entered WWI. 

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 6:20 AM

The GTWCN/LV routing is one, with the LV handoff at Niagara Falls.  I'm going to disqualify the Canada Southern routing because it's the same as the NYC trains.  So here's the hint: Some of the Boston-Chicago routing was shared with the LV car. His arc just doesn't go far enough north.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, February 26, 2014 2:35 AM

I had not seen Rob's posting when I posted.   He must have known the the whole complete answer while I was fiddling around.  Hats off to him.

In answer to his question.  Chicago - New York sleepers ran regularly via the Grand Trunk Western to Niagra Falls or Wellin and the Lehigh Valley (PRR tracks from west of Newark to Penn Sta, of course, with PRR engine crew in the GG1 or R1 or P5 or two O1's, and LVT train crew).   This lasted until well after WWII.   Much much ealrier,  there was a Michigan Central, Canada Southern to Buffalo, then West Shore to Mechanicsville (?) and Boston and Maine to North Station, Boston, via Troy.  This ended well before WWII, I think before WWI..

Not sure of the routing and interchange point in the Mechanicsville - Albany - Troy area,  but I believe the routing did not iclude Albany..

In looking at Henry Ford's visit to the Esty Organ factory in Brattleboro, I tried to find a through B&M sleeper to Detroit and could not in 1913.   There were through sleepers to Chicago, but not vis Detroit.  Possibly the B&M may have a sleeper from Chhicago via the Grand Trunk Western, Niagra Falls, West Shore to the Albany - Troy Mechanicsville area, B&M to Boston.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:55 PM

Indiana RR service ended Jan 19, 1941.  IPSCo (former IRR) service to Seymour, which entered the Indianapolis city limits but did not go downtown, lasted until Sept 1941.  The service was not listed in the OG.

The Peoria and Eastern was still a subsidiary of the CCC&St.L in 1941.  I'm not sure when the Madison and Indianapolis (PRR) became part of the Panhandle (PCC&St L.)

We all are familiar with New York Central's trains that ran via Detroit and Canada.  There were at least two other Pullman lines that carried cars from Chicago to East Coast points via Canada.  One ran to Boston, one to New York.  Need railroads and hand-off points.

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Posted by KCSfan on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:15 PM

Indianapolis is correct and Rob was the first one to post this answer, However the Feb 1941 OG does not show the Indiana RR (IPSCo) operating at that time. I haven't found the exact date it ceased operations so unless it was still running in January it doesn't count. The same OG lists the Erie as serving Indy but it reached that city by trackage rights over the B&O from Hamilton, OH so I'm not sure the Erie should count either. If we exclude those two roads the list would be down to seven which would put Indy in a tie with Springfield which was also served by seven railroads. In any event the next question is yours Rob.

Mark

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 1:14 PM

Columbus is not as close as I thought, but Sacramento may be close:   WP, SP, AT&SF, SN, CCT.   Oh well, I will stick with Indanapolis.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:58 PM

Apparently wrong about Wabash, unless entering on trackage rights, but can add Illlinois Central, Union Ry. of Indianapolis, and Indianapolis Belt.  Depending of whether or not Big Four is counted as part of Central, total eigiht or nine.

Now to check Columbus, Ohio

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:48 PM

Indianapolis, Indiana:   PRR, NYCentral (Big Four), B&O, Monon, Wabash, Interstate Public Service (remnant of Indiana Railroad interurban to Seymore until accident), and more.  Will get back.

Suspect Columbus, Ohio, is also a contender.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 12:43 PM

If this doesn't win, it should be close...

Indianapolis IN

  NYCS CCC&StL - Peoria and Eastern

  PRR (PCC&StL)

  B&O

  NYC&St.L

  CI&L (Monon)

  IC

  Indiana RR - including Interstate Public Service

  Indianapolis Union Railway Company (Belt Railway)

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Posted by KCSfan on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:54 AM

In 1941 what state capitol was served by the largest number of railroads and what were the names of each of these roads?

Mark

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 8:08 AM

The Silent Knight is correct. C&EI's ads suggested that it was easier to sleep on their train that managed to miss busy stops like Decatur and Springfield.  Despite clever advertising and fast schedules, C&EI was the first to exit the Chicago-St. Louis trade.  The IC and Wabash (at least as through service) lasted until 1970, the GM&O service continues today.

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Posted by KCSfan on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 6:41 AM

It must have been the other C&EI train, The Silent Knight.

Mark

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, February 25, 2014 6:30 AM

KCSfan

Zipper - C&EI

Mark

You're halfway there.  The train I'm looking for operated before WWII. It's advertising claimed "No noisy station stops."

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Posted by KCSfan on Monday, February 24, 2014 7:01 PM

Zipper - C&EI

Mark

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, February 24, 2014 4:41 PM

On the hotly competetive Chicago-St. Louis run one railroad named a train to make a virtue out of missing just about every major population center in central Illinois.  Name the railroad and the train.

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Posted by KCSfan on Monday, February 24, 2014 2:54 PM

rcdrye

Tampa Northern.  This would have been the SAL's alternate entry into Tampa from the north.

You've nailed it Rob and the next question is yours. The Tampa Northern had ambitious plans to build from their northern end at Brooksville through Dunnelon and Perry to Thomasville, GA but they were never financially able to build this extension. Of course in the late 1920's the ACL built the Perry Cutoff which went to Thomasville through all the towns on the TN's proposed but un-built route.

Mark 

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, February 24, 2014 2:05 PM

Tampa Northern.  This would have been the SAL's alternate entry into Tampa from the north.

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Posted by KCSfan on Monday, February 24, 2014 12:17 PM

rcdrye

This has proven to be pretty tough without a full Seaboard history.  I'm going to go with the Tallahassee, Perry and Southeastern, if only because Perry is associated with the ACl...

Sorry Rob but that's not the one. Here's another hint. Brooksville was one end point of the railroad.

Mark

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, February 24, 2014 11:30 AM

This has proven to be pretty tough without a full Seaboard history.  I'm going to go with the Tallahassee, Perry and Southeastern, if only because Perry is associated with the ACl...

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Posted by KCSfan on Sunday, February 23, 2014 10:48 AM

The Florida shortline I'm looking for lost its identity in 1925 when it was absorbed into the SAL which had owned it since 1912.

Mark

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Posted by KCSfan on Friday, February 21, 2014 10:50 AM

Another hint. One well known long distance train used this line. Local service was by mixed trains.

Mark

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Posted by KCSfan on Thursday, February 20, 2014 3:47 PM

KCSfan

What shortline railroad that ultimately became a part of the Seaboard Air Line planned but never built an extension into an adjacent state that would have more than doubled its route mileage? The proposed extension was shown on the map of the railroad in the Official Guides of the time. At a later date the SAL's arch rival did build a line running to and through the towns on the route of the shortlines planned extension. Name the railroad and the end points of its planned but un-built line.

Mark 

Most of this extension was abandoned by the early 1960's and portions of it were converted from rails to trails.

Mark   

 

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Posted by KCSfan on Wednesday, February 19, 2014 5:23 PM

NorthWest

Mark, you got it. The California Southern (Santa Fe subsidiary) did build from San Diego north through Fall Brook and Temecula, through Temecula Canyon, where the tracks are now gone. The Surf Line along the coast was completed in the 1880s, and the prone to washouts line abandoned.

Northwest, the Santa Fe map in my oldest OG, a 1910 issue, shows the gap in the line between Temecula and Fall Brook which I assumed was bridged some time after 1910. Your above reply prompted me to find out more about the California Southern and was surprised to find it had been the mainline to San Diego from the east when Los Angeles was still just a small mission town. Its line through Temecula Canyon was abandoned (or at least reduced to a minor branch line) after being washed out several times by floods in the 1880's. I found this bit of California railroad history most interesting thanks to your question. 

Mark    

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