The Eastern Mass House Neck line was an unusual line for the Boston area in that it neither entered downtown nor connected directly with a rapid transit line, although its replacement bus definitely does now connect. Let look at another unusual line that operated 1949-1952 only. The single Type 5 car used was based at the Elm Street carhouse, then serving only trackless trolleys, this single car, and the Type 5-operated Elm Street - Sullivan Square Station via Fellsway Rt. 100 streetcar line. The single Type 5 left the carhouse about 5:30 signed no stops or special but did stop to pick-up knowlegeable passengers, who paid the 15 cent rapid transit fare into the farebox and not the local 10-cent fare. At Sullivan Square, it stayed on the surface, did not enter the surface portion of the station, and operated without picking up any further passenger, and with a less than full seated load, under the elevated to North Station, where it madee a stop on the track on the suface outside the fare control location. Before arriving at that locaton, the operator would change the sign to Brattle Street. Passengers boarding at North Station paid only ten cents. It used the inner two tracks on the incline into the subway, the inner two tracks at Haymarket Station, and laid over a few minutes adjacent to the platform, outside fare conctrol at the Brattle Loop at what is now Government Center but was then Scolley Square Station. All day it shuttled between the Brattle Loop and the surface loop at North Station, with the extra stop at Adams northbound, always outside fare control. In the evening, at 6:30pm, with me aboard on the few occasions I could ride, it left Brattle, signed as usual North Station, and most of the riders left as usual at Haymarket. With those left on the car at North Station, he closed the doors, and went through the car collecting an extra nickle from all remaining passenngers, and put the sign back to NO STOPS or SPECIAL, and went back to Elm Street carhouse, under the elevated witihout stopping to Sullivan Square, then discharging but not receiving passengers to Elm Street.
He collected a nickle extra from thru passengers. None of the thu 15-cent paying passengers got a transfer. But at Brattle and Adams, some people paid only a dime and got a "continuing trip ticket" or transfer. Why?
And what was the reason for the operation of this line? Why was it innaugurated? Only the Brattle-N. Station appeared on maps. The morning and evening trips were put-in and pull-out carbarn trips that would carry passengers.
The ex-SN Cars were bought by Key from a scrapper which got them from the California Toll Bridge Authority, which in turn got them as collateral for the ATC equipment that had to be installed on Key System cars for Bridge operation.
The five ex-SN cars show up in photos with National City Lines "Fruit Salad" paint and third rail shoes. I haven't found photos of them on the Bridge. They operated until 1949, after the wire was removed.
SN came into Oakland from the North under 1200 V wire. Before the Bay Bridge, SN trains switched from poles to Pans (and 1200V to 600V) for operation under Key System's 600V wire to the Pier. In the Bridge era, pans were still used, but SN cars went back to 1200 volts under overhead shared with SP's Interurban Electric to cross the bridge (cars were left set for 1200V, just ran sluggishly at 600). Key System cars were not equipped for 1200V operation, so the third rail was set up, with automatic change from pans to third rail and back. IER cars just stayed on 1200V overhead.
The Key's Bridge Units were new bodies equipped with 1910-1920 era controls and motors from scrapped Key System 500 and 600 series cars. Despite their modern appearance, they were pretty worn out when service ended in 1958.
Your question , Dave!
The SF-Oakland Bay Bridge trackage meets your description. The last arriving cars were not the Key System Bridge units (which I believe did use third rail on the Bridge), but the ex Sacramento Northern Passenger cars purchased second hand or leased by Key for WWII extra service. They were capable of any combinaition of trolley pole, pantograph, and third rail operation, but Key bought them without their removable third rail shoes, which were only used on the Sacramento Northern north of Sacramento and never used on the bridge, either in SN service or in WWII Key service. The trolley wire on the bridge had been left in place after SN and IE had discontinued passenger service, and was restored to service for these cars during WWII.
SN had retained a few passenger cars after ending passenger service, for fan trips and inspection trips, and these were the cars that supplemented Key equipment on the Bridge during WWII. They may have been leased and not purchased, but they were in Key, not SN service.
narig01Kind of sounds like the Sacramento Northern.Rgds IGN
SN ran high and low voltage with poles (on passenger equipment), high and low voltage with pans (freight, passenger on Key System), and low voltage third rail. The particular stretch of track I'm looking for was not owned by SN, and had high voltage overhead and low voltage third rail.
On this stretch of track, the cars that normally operated on high voltage with pantographs continued to do so, the cars that normally operated at low voltage with pantographs operated on low voltage third rail, and the cars that normally operated at high voltage with poles arrived operating from low voltage with pantographs and changed to high voltage with pantographs. The last group of cars were third rail equipped but did not use that equipment at this location.
rcdrye Fort Wayne and Wabash Valley Kingsland IN Sept 21, 1910. 41 passengers killed.
Fort Wayne and Wabash Valley Kingsland IN Sept 21, 1910. 41 passengers killed.
Correct. It was a head on collision between a jam packed car with passengers standing in the aisle and an empty car running as an unscheduled extra. Both cars were traveling at about 60 mph when they collided.
Mark
FW&WV became the Fort Wayne and Northern Indiana, eventually folded into Indiana Service Corp, which in turn was operated as part of the Indana Railroad.
In terms of fatalities what was the worst interurban accident in the US? Name the railroad, location and date.
Wow, talk about complexity! Amost as complex as the 74 different ways a B Divsion subway train can run from Coney Island to the Archer Avenue subway station adjacent to the LIRR Jamaica station without changine direction.
Yes, Mark, Washington is one of the end points.
Since you have done so well, I will give the routings, including the terminal you did not include.
Cincinnati-Oakdale-Chattanooga-New Orleans, all on the Q&C.
Washington-Morristown-Knoxville-Ooltewah-Chattanooga on SoRy; combine with Q&C train to New Orleans.
Cincinnati-Oakdale on Q&C; give train to SoRy, which takes it through Knoxville and Morristown to Charleston--that's the one you forgot about.
Cincinnati-Chattanooga on Q&C; SoRy takes it through Ooltewah and down to Jacksonville (trackage rights on ACL Jesup-Jacksonville). The stupid spellcheck thought that there are two s's in Jesup, Georgia-- it's a victim of geographical ignorance.
I admit that I am not as familiar with the varied routings found on other roads as I am with the Southern, but did any other system have such a criss-crossing of routes?
Another item: between Chattanooga and Ooltewah, you had northbound (Jacksonville-Cincinnati) trains moving in the same direction as westbound (Washington-Memphis/Birmingham) trains, and southbound and eastbound trains doing the same. However, the Chattanooga Terminal TT gave one direction (I am not going to dig a TT out to make sure I am right about the direction), east to Ooltewah from Chattanooga for all trains, with three digit numbers for trains that otherwise had the wrong number for their direction of movement (does that make sense?).
The Atlanta Terminal TT also had its own numbers for all the trains using it (SAL as well as SOU). Adding to the interest in Atlanta, the Washington-Columbus, Miss., line did not go in to the Terminal Station, and the H (Chattanooga-Brunswick) line did. I will not attempt to describe the junctions, but all of these lines still exist, even though the Terminal Station is no longer there.
Johnny
OK scrub Macon and Jesup and replace them with Jacksonville. Instead of Bristol I guess you are looking for Washington.
You're getting closer--but not there yet.
There was through Pullman service Chattanooga-Shreveport and Atlanta- Shreveport at that time, but I did not consider them.
Even though Fairfax Harrison was president of the GS&F in 1915, this road was in competition with the Southern then, handling the Dixie Flyer and the Southland between Macon (CG Atlanta-Macon) and Tifton (ACL Tifton-Jacksonville), and did not handle any train that the Southern did. When the GS&F was taken into the Southern Rwy System, it still handled these two trains for a time, but they were simply listed, without any name, in the timetable (1917), and by 1921 they were handled by the CG to Albany and no longer embarrassed the Southern by their presence.
When I was phrasing the question, for some reason I failed to name the N&W as a participating road (perhaps because the N&W remained separate until close to the end of the twentieth century), so Bristol is not one of the points.
You still have an unnamed end point besides what I hope is now the obvious one that you took to be Bristol. Consider where and how the train that branched off at Oakdale went.
It seems like you're not interested in the A&V and VS&P route so I'll scratch Shreveport as an end point and Vicksburg as one of the junctions and also replace Harriman Jct. with Oakdale. I'm guessing that the three endpoints I had overlooked were all on the SR and were Bristol, Macon and Jesup, the latter two being where the Florida trains were handed off to the GS&F.
Pretty good, Mark. But--you missed three end points that were all on one road, moved a handover point a little bit south, named two junctions that were not involved, and omitted two junctions. Cincinnati, and New Orleans are right for end points, and Chattanooga and Knoxville are right for their purposes.
OK I'll have a go at it.
X&Y was the Queen and Crescent which was made up of the CNO&TP, AGS, NO&NE, A&V and VS&P. The latter five would be railroads A through E. Railroad Z would be the Southern Ry. Points 1-10 would be Cincinnati, St. Louis, Lexington, Harriman Jct., Chattanooga, Knoxville, Meridian, New Orleans, Vicksburg and Shreveport.
Mark, you are on the mark with Fairfax Harrison. Now, go back and identify the railroads involved and the end and junction/handover points. No train names are needed.
Could it have been Fairfax Harrison - Southern Railway System?
No, the B&M and the MEC were still essentially separate operations, so Mr. French was not the man--and this was in another section of the country.
Was it French as President of the Boston and Maine and the Maine Central?
Here's a description of certain operations by a certain route and a certain railroad which shared a president 99 years ago.
X & Y Route comprised Railroads A, B, C, D, & E.
X & Y Route operated train "a" from 1 to 2, through 3 and 4, and Railroad Z operated train "b" from 5, through 6,7, & 8 to 4, where it was combined with train "a", which carried through cars to 2.
X & Y also operated train "c" that ran from 1 to 9, which Z took from 3 to 9, passing through 7 & 6.
X & Y also operated train "d" that ran from 1 to 10, handing it over to Z at 4, whereupon it ran through 8 to 10.
By 1930, X & Y Route, less two of its previous components, was in the Z Railway System. Those two components were then in a different system, which was part of an even larger system.
Identify X, Y, Z, and A through E, and points 1 through 10.
All of these routes were still in service into the forties, and, except for one, even lasted into the sixties.
Name the president whom they shared.
Well, it was a stumper for me, I did know the other two.
Good research, Johnny. Absolutely right on all points. I thought the New Mexico Central might have been a bit more of a stumper.
I do not remember hearing of the New Mexico Central until I looked up the roads serving Santa Fe. It was not in the 1930 issue of the Guide that I have--apparently it had little business, and was gone by then--but it was in the 1916 issue that I have. Back then, it ran between Santa Fe and Torrance (three days a week in each direction), where it connected with the El Paso and Northeastern. Its representation declared that close connections were made with the Rock Island and the El Paso and Southwestern at Torrance. However, unless its trains ran late, there was plenty of time in Torrance to make any connection. The Rock Island representation in that issue shows the full schedule of stops in that area.
The branch lines were those of the Rio Grande--Antonito to Santa Fe, with connections in Antonito and Alamosa for Denver, and the Santa Fe's line to Lamy, where it connected with the northern main line. I knew these two, but, as I said, the third road was mystery.
Incidentally, among my collection of books, there is one about the AT&SF that has the statement that the road never reached either Atchison or Santa Fe. The author is guilty of poor research.
At one time the capital of New Mexico was served by branches of two railroads and the main line of a third road. What were the three railroads and to where did the three lines run from Santa Fe?
Mark came up with the three routes, though he named the wrong Southern train, and did not specify which had a through sleeper nor which were coach only.
Dave named the Ponce de Leon, but thought it had the sleeper.
Rob named the L&N direct train--the all-coach Flamingo, and identified the route with a through sleeper as being through Nashville with the car being switched from one train to the other, and coach passengers had to change trains.
I think Mark trumps everybody else, even though together they filled the missing information in.
Incidentally, in 1967 I rode the sleeper from Nashville to Louisville, where it had become a setout sleeper. My L&N coupon read from Birmingham to Cincinnati, but the conductor out of Nashville kept it and did not get it back to me. I do not know if it was the Pullman or L&N conductor. I complained when I got off in Louisville, and when I was ready to continue I was given a coupon which got me to Cincinnati.
I wasn't too far off on the Flamingo. Prior to the NC&StL merger, L&N ran one sleeper each from Louisville and Cincinatti to Atlanta, combining the trains at Corbin KY. After the merger L&N could run a single car (usually a 6-6-4) from Cincinnati via Louisville to Nashville on the Humming Bird, adding it to the Georgian for the remaining run to Atlanta. The car ran in 5 and 81 southbound, 80 and 6 northbound. Coach passengers got to use the Flamingo or change cars in Nashville.
Sorry, Dave, but by this time the Ponce de Leon had lost its sleepers.
So RC has one with the Flamingo on the L&N (onthe old NC&St.L line) and I have one with the :Ponce de Leon all-sleeper on the Soythern. I know the Southern also had an overnight coach train, but I cannot find its name if it indeed did have a name and not just a pair of numbers. Hopefully RC has access to the information.
rcdrye Did L&N still have a sleeper on the Flamingo?
Did L&N still have a sleeper on the Flamingo?
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