Rob and All:
You got the first part of the question right. I did not include the MILW's cars.
The second part of the question was referring to the UP's "Alpine" series cars that duplicated a series of heavy weight cars of the same prefix. They were rebuilt into coaches.
As information, the GN ordered sleepers for the Empire Builder about 1950. The "River" series had four sections. They were the last to be sold, so the GN rebuilt the cars. This is from John Straus's book on the Empire Builder.
Next question to you.
Ed Burns
rcdrye Milwauke had 14 section Touralux cars (Milwaukee shops?) which were rebuilt into various types of baggage, mail and baggage-mail cars. I think these are the heavywight replacements you're thinking of. CB&Q/D&RGW/WP ordered 6 16 section cars (berths in secitons 1 and 2 were 6' 8" long...) for the California Zephyr - all rebuilt int 50 seat coaches in the mid-1960s.
Milwauke had 14 section Touralux cars (Milwaukee shops?) which were rebuilt into various types of baggage, mail and baggage-mail cars. I think these are the heavywight replacements you're thinking of. CB&Q/D&RGW/WP ordered 6 16 section cars (berths in secitons 1 and 2 were 6' 8" long...) for the California Zephyr - all rebuilt int 50 seat coaches in the mid-1960s.
Johnny
Although the train they were built for was not mainly known as a daytime train, this train was the last one with built-new parlor seating before the Metroliners. Parlor seats railroad tickets, not Pullman.
You answered the question with A correct answer. We don't kniow whether it was THE correct answer. A corrrect answer is good enough for me, and I vote that you ask the next question.
Keep the thread going?
Open platform observations were built in moderate quantity up into the 1920s (North Shore Line took delivery of one in 1928). The key factors in their demise were inflexibility, air conditioning, and reduced demand for first-class service during and after the depression. Solariums appear early in the steel car era - Pullman had sleeper-buffet-lounge (solarium) cars in the late teens. Perhaps the most dramatic replacement for open-patform cars was the Milwaukee's operation of the Olympian Hiawatha, which carried OP cars until all of the Creek series Skytop 8DBR lounge cars were delivered.
Some eastern roads, notably the New Haven, had solarium cars with decorative brass railings on the solarium end.
Rob and all:
After WWII two railroads ordered all section sleeping cars. Name the two railroads and the series those cars were named. Hint-one series duplicated a heavyweight series. Eventually something happened to those cars. What was it?
From a memory of photographs, I think the Exposition Flyer operated with solariums in the winter and open-platform obs in the summer. But the Empire Builder was solarium all-year round. But this was well before the dome obs arrived.
OK... Ed gets the next question. Wabash had Budd-built car 1601 on the Blue Bird (Dome Parlor Obs, Pullman operated) as well as the famous "Helena Modjeska" open platform parlor obs (also Pullman operated) which ran into the 1960s on the Banner Blue. Both trains ran Chicago-St. Louis.
Not to hold up the thread - but nobody tried for the railroad-operated parlor answer. Actually I'm surprised Ed didn't get it but the overlap was very short. CB&Q took delivery of its first dome equipped Zephyrs in 1947, including a pair of dome parlor observations, a year or two before it retired its last open platform parlors, which may have been out of service for some time before that. Burlington had operated solariums on some of its first-string trains since around 1930- like most railroads equipment on secondary trains suffered from benign neglect.
In general,, solareums were favored by northern railroads in cold climates (heavywieght Empire Buiilder as example), and open platforms in milder climates.
Yup; lightweight dome parlor observation on the Bluebird, and open platform observation on the Detroit-St. Louis train.
Rob:
I am thinking of the Wabash. "Trains" had picture or write up about this. Is the car the "Helena Mojeski" (may have spelled that wrong).
You and I looked in slightly different eras - I was looking at a list 20 years after yours. My list was done from the diagram numbers - I looked in vain for a diagram 12 car. Maybe the most interesting to me was the number of variations on the 6Cpt 3DR car - there was even a diagram number reserved for a "virtual" car in case the actual car assigned was unknown.
So here's the new question: Though several carriers had lightweight and heavyweight parlor cars in service at the same time, even operated by Pullman, only one had open-platform heavyweight parlor-observation and dome-parlor observation cars operated by Pullman at the same time. For extra credit name the railroad that operated its own open-platform heavyweight parlor-observation and dome-parlor observation cars at the same time.
Well, well, well (and this is not intended to be three holes in the ground). You have found 13 that are not listed in Pullman Panorama Volume 1--and I found 12 in that book that you did not find. I did not specify that rebuilds were not counted, so Eventide and Nocturne are allowable (rebuilt from Seaside Park and Adair, composite baggage and club smoking (buffet) cars.
The common findings are: 10 C, 14 SBR, 7C 2 DR, 7C Lge Obs, 2C 1 DR L BLO, 1C 1DR BLO, 3C 2DR LO,3C 1DR BLO, 1DR 1SBR BLO, and 1C 3DR.
I found and you did not: 6C LO, 8C LO, 4C 2DR LO, 7DR, 2DR 1C LO, 2C, 3DR 2 Private Room (How they differed is not stated), 6SBR Café Lge, 3SBR 2C 1DR BLO, 6SBR BLO, 4SBR2C 1DR L, and 13 DBR.
Quite a variety, is it not? Since it is noted in the Wayner book I have that certain cars were built for certain roads, I imagine that some of these variations were specified by the roads that they were built for. I wonder: were some of the cars built with sun rooms rather than open deck observations because of the higher speeds that came into practice?
Back early, I guess...
Johnny's question intrigued me enough to dig. I was surprised at how few groups of all-room cars with no lounge accomodations there were - though the total number of cars without lounges is slightly larger. Johnny found seven types with rooms only, I only found eight.
From the 1950 Pullman Company List of Cars (reprinted by Wayner Publications) here are the all-room heavywight diagram numbers for Pullmans built before the lightweight era. Diagram numbers between 1 and 99, plan numbers in the 2000 and 3000 series are either as-built heavyweights or rebuilds before 1937. Some cars with 1-99 diagram numbers are lightweights with heavyweight floor plans (ex. 8 Sect 2 DBR 2 Cpt) which have 4000 series plan numbers.
DR=Drawing Room SBR=Single Bedroom DBR=Double Bedroom, Cpt=Compartment
Buf=Buffet Din= Diner Lge=Lounge Obs=Observation (no distinction between solarium and open platform) Dup SBR= Duplex Single Bedroom
12 3DBR 2DR Buf Lge
16 6DBR Lge
29 1 DR 1 Cpt Lge
31 8 SBR Lge
35 10 CPT
36 14 SBR
37 1 DR 2 DBR 2 Cpt 2 SBR Lge
38 5 Cpt Lge
39 6 SBR Din Lge
40,47,53 7 Cpt 2 DR
42 7 Cpt Lge Obs
43 7 Cpt Buf Lge
50 1 Dr 2 Cpt Lge Obs
51 2 Cpt 1 DR Lge, Buf Lge Obs (not a typo... lists two different lounge sections)
52 1 Cpt 1 DR Buf Lge Obs
57,58,64 3 Cpt 2 DR Lge Obs
59 6 Rmt 5 DBR 2 Cpt (This is probably a rebuild)
60 3 Cpt 1 DR Buf Lge Obs
68 4 Cpt 1 DR Lge Obs (Canadian Pacific owned)
69 3 DR 3 Cpt Lge
70 4 DR 4 Cpt
71 1 DR 1 SBR Buf Lge Obs
75,80,81,82,83 6 Cpt 3 DR (variations on paired rooms)
89 16 Dup SBR (Eventide and Nocturne )
97 1Dr 1 Cpt 3 DBR Bft Lge Obs
99 6 SBR 2 DBR Lge Obs
The following are rebuilds - 3000 series plans and 300 or 400 series diagram numbers
(100 series are Parlor, 200 lightweights. Some Lightweights with sections had lower 1-99 plan numbers)
355 1 DR 2 Cpt 3SBR Lge Obs
356,365,369,370,371,389 1 Dr 1 Cpt Buf Lge Obs
374,375,376 1 DR 1 SBR Buf Lge Smoking Lge
378, 433, 435 1 DR 2 Cpt Buf Lge Obs
381 2 Cpt 3 SBR 1 DR Buf Lge Obs
438, 439 3 Cpt 1 DR Lge Obs
453 3 Cpt 2 DR Lge
The reference to the names of the two rebuilt cars provided the clue. Using Kratville's Passenger Car Catalog and Wayner's Pullman Panorama Volume 1 (did publish a second volume?), I found the details of the two cars. The rest was easy.
I, too have enjoyed the exchange of information concerning railroading in the past, and hope to continue for many years this exchange with the dinosaurs and the young whippersnappers.
New question: even though Pullman built more 12 section-drawing cars than any other arrangement, the company built quite a variety of all-room heavyweights, including those that also had lounge, dining, and/or observation facilities. I have counted 22 different arrangements built 1911-1931, 7 of which had rooms only. Name as many as you can.
Happy New Year to you all!
Another quick and completely correct answer. Burlington and Rock Island each supplied a complete trainset, except Rock Island supplied both lounge-observations. Like many heavyweights assigned to otherwise lightweight trains, the two Tower cars were painted to match, in this case plain silver.
Interesting to me is that both the Burlington and the Rock Island ends were out of their main territories. Burlington was a bit player in St Louis, RI in the twin cities. The Z-R originated in RIs and later CMStP&P's station in Minneapolis.
Since this will probably be my last post this year I want to let all you forum participants know what a pleasure it's been. Looking forward to many more years swapping minuitae with all of you! (My wife's comment: "Not too many people care about this stuff, but those who care, really care!")
This sounds like the Zephyr Rocket, which went into service in 1941 between St. Louis and Minneapolis. Apparently, the original sleepers were two in the Tower series, which had 8 sections, 3 double bedrooms, and 1 drawing room. Pullman rebuilt two cars to Plan 4090-, and they were named Zephyr Tower and Rocket Tower. The junction was a Burlington, Iowa.
Rocket Tower was originally Costella Peak, and Zephyr Tower was originally Teton Peak. Both were originally built in Lot 6213, 10 section & 2 drawing rooms; in December 19280January 1929; Costella Peak was built for service on the Twentieth Century Limited, and Teton Peak was built for general service. They were both rebuilt in July of 1941..
I can't think why I only found the LE&W and forgot the NYC & St. L. My wife's family is from Cleveland where Oris P. and Mantis J. Van Sweringen are legendary. NKP's longstanding arrangement with the DL&W for New York bound traffic was an afterthought during its construction when the intent was to connect to the West Shore. I'm sure the NYC system acquired it for the same reasons.
So here's the repost of the new question:
An overnight train jointly operated by two carriers famous for fast streamined trains carried heavyweight Pullmans rebuilt and renamed for the carriers' famous fleets. Endpoints, RRs, handoff city and (if you can...) car names.
Rob, you deserve partial credit for naming the LE&W which was a NYC line until it was acquired by the NKP in 1922 after which it lost its individual identity and became the LE&W District of the NKP. The New York Chicago and St. Louis itself was the remaining road I was looking for. The NYC&StL was acquired by the Lake Shore and Michigan Southern in 1882 and remained in the NYC family until 1916 when it was sold to the Van Sweringen Brothers of Cleveland. The sale was prompted by the federal government advising the NYC that its ownership of both the Nickle Plate and LS&MS was a violation of the anti trust laws. The Van Sweringens originally wanted the Nickle Plate only for its right of way in the Cleveland area for use by their Shaker Heights and other traction lines but after acquiring it realized the value of the entire railroad.
The next question is yours.
Mark
The Rutland was in the NYC camp primarily because of Alexandra Vanderbilt's husband Dr William Seward Webb, who wanted to be a governer (of Vermont or New York, he didn't seem to really care). After he failed in that the NYC kind of lost interest in the Rutland and sold most of their holdings under threat of the Sherman Anti-Trust act. The only thing Vermont got out of it in the end was the Shelburne Museum, which was set up by Webb's daughter Electra. At least two Vermont governors had previously been President of the Vermont Central (later Central Vermont), which had also controlled the Rutland for a period of time.
The last residue of NYC control of the Rutland (besides equipment classes and appearance) were the NYC's trackage rights from Norwood NY to Malone Jct NY, which lasted longer than the Rutland itself.
I will defer to RC if it is OK, because the three railroads I listed were pretty well known as to their ownership, and the two that RC listed as sold before 1920 were far more obscure concerning their NYC ownership.
I suppose the NYC sold the Rutland because they wished the D&H to be a friendly connection.
Lake Erie and Western. Later (1922) ended up in the NKP camp.
KCSfanThe Kankakee Belt Route was a nickname and marketing name used by the NYC for the Illinois Division line between South Bend and Zearing, IL
The Illinois Division was part of the Indiana Illinois and Iowa (Three I), which was a subsidiary of the Big Four (CCC&StL).
Neither the Alton nor the Clinchfield were ever owned by the NYC. The Kankakee Belt Route was a nickname and marketing name used by the NYC for the Illinois Division line between South Bend and Zearing, IL. It remained a part of the NYC into the PC era. The last line we are looking for was a major east-west railroad that lasted for decades after the NYC sold its interest in the line. Its familiar name was the same during and pre and post NYC ownership.
I know the Alton was once owned bny the B&O. Could it have been once owned by the Central?
What about the Kankikee Belt?
The Clinchfield?
daveklepper Three with controling interest are Iindiana Harbor Belt, Pittsburgh and Lake Erie, and Toronto, Hamiltoon & Buffalo. Sold Peoria and Pekin Union? In 1932 it sold the street trackage of the New York and Harlem to New York Railways. I will look for some more.
Three with controling interest are Iindiana Harbor Belt, Pittsburgh and Lake Erie, and Toronto, Hamiltoon & Buffalo. Sold Peoria and Pekin Union? In 1932 it sold the street trackage of the New York and Harlem to New York Railways. I will look for some more.
The IHB, P&LE and TH&B are correct. As far as I know the NYC never owned or controlled the P&PU. I believe you are thinking of the Peoria & Eastern which was a subsidiary of the Big Four. Rob has also correctly identified the Rutland. One more road remains to be identified before I will declare a winner. I was surprised to learn this remaining road had for a time been one of the NYC Lines.
The Rutland operated as part of NYC Lines until about 1915. NYC influence in locomotive and caboose design stuck around a bit longer.
Three with controling interest are Iindiana Harbor Belt, Pittsburgh and Lake Erie, and Toronto, Hamiltoon & Buffalo. Sold Peoria and Pekin Union? In 1932 it sold the street trackage of the New York and Harlem to New York Railways. I will look for some more..
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