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Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, August 9, 2014 7:32 PM

That's actually a trick question.  Both Lake St and Northwestern Elevated operated left-handed.  Prior to 1902, LSERR swapped to right-handed at a crossover at Lake and Franklin.  After 1902, with the end of surface operation on Lombard and Randolph in Oak Park, LSE and successor Chicago and Oak Park ran left-handed all the way.  NWERR operated left-handed, except in Evanston, where the overlap with C&ME (North Shore) required right hand running.  The apparent location of the changeover was Central Avenue in Evanston.  Both systems changed to right-hand operation with the introduction of free transfers and through routing in 1913.  And all four companies operated left-handed on the loop prior to November 3, 1913, with C&OP and NWE sharing the outer (counterclockwise) track, Metropolitan and South Side the inner (clockwise) track.  After that date C&OP and Met shared the inner track, NWE and South Side the outer, with both tracks operated in a counterclockwise direction, an arrangement that lasted until 1969.

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Posted by KCSfan on Saturday, August 9, 2014 3:02 PM

Oak Park (Lake St.) Elevated.

Mark

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, August 9, 2014 10:10 AM

More left-hande operation, but in a different city.  Prior to consolidation under Insull management, the Chicago L was operated by four different companies.  Which company operated left-handed, even on the Union Loop?

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, August 8, 2014 11:39 AM

Correct.  Shaker Heights reverts to right hand running at the split, but the Red line runs left-handed to Windermere, once the site of a large CTS streetcar carbarn. Red line trains run right-handed to Hopkins Airport. All swaps are made with flyovers.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, August 8, 2014 10:10 AM

This would be the Cleveland Transit System rapid transit where it shares trackage with the Shaker Heights Rapid Transit.  Left-handed running is required because of center platforms and PCC cars with doors on the right-hand side only.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, August 8, 2014 6:20 AM

We'll stay with traction but move up the equipment size...

This postwar rapid transit line operates left handed over about half of its original length because of joint operation with another, older rapid transit line.  Neither line operates left-handed over its entire length.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, August 7, 2014 10:10 PM

And of course, the name DuPont, for DuPont Circle, will always be associated with Wilmington, DL. Hq of DuPont Chemicals.

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, August 7, 2014 3:53 PM

Actually I had hoped to be wrong, because I’m thinking too weakly of a good question. Rob?

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, August 7, 2014 2:33 PM

Mike and Tom can decide between them who has the honor of asking the next question.  I would point out that the honor of having the very first conduit line underground was what is now the Par k Avenue Vehicular Tunnel but was a tunnel for the New York and Harlem Ry., and for its successor south of 42nd Street, the 4th and Madison Avenue streetcar.   And there was an underground station at 37th Street, remains of which can be seen when driving through the tunnel (surface buses Dec. 1935).  And Washington already had two other underground conduit lines, the tunnel used by the 20 under Capitol Hill, which was pre-WWII, and the underground southern terminal of the 14th St. line at the Bureau of Printing and Engraving,  daring from the '20s.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, August 6, 2014 5:15 PM

Mike, as always, comes up with the well-illustrated answer.  DC transit did do some rework close to the Capitol around the same time, creating a tunnel that still exists but is closed off to the Public. 

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Posted by wanswheel on Wednesday, August 6, 2014 3:14 PM

Dupont Circle, around which traffic flowed counter-clockwise, except streetcars on the inner track went against the flow through a portion of the 10-point traffic circle.

Excerpt from Historic American Building Survey:

Washington Deputy Engineer of Streets S. R. Harrison discussed the circle and its planned treatment in his address to the American Road Builder's Association in 1947. Citing the fact that more than 52,000 vehicles drove around the circle each day and the large number of pedestrians necessitated adding "walk" signals at crossings, he wrote, "I am quite sure that all of you would agree with my fellow Washingtonians who must drive through this maze during morning and evening rush periods, that this experience in urban motoring is a rather trying one." He proposed creating an inner lane to segregate through traffic on Massachusetts Avenue and an outer lane for traffic approaching or leaving any of the other streets. The two lanes would be divided by medians with breaks at Massachusetts Avenue. Connecticut Avenue, with the highest traffic volume, would be carried under the circle through an underpass for both automotive traffic and the streetcar line. Harrison's scheme was carried out the following year and necessitated the excavation of the park. The streetcar underpass was completed in 1949, giving Washington the distinction of having the first underground conduit cars in the country.

http://ghostsofdc.org/2012/07/20/dupont-circle-underground-construction/

http://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/2014/05/contemporaneous-photos-dupont-circle-underpass-construction-streetcars/

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 4, 2014 2:15 PM

That is correct.  Only it was not an extension, but slight rerouting, needed because of the layout of the Embankment.  The Festival included the construction of several performance and rehearsal halls, the most important being Royal Festival Hall, renovated a few years go.  The red trams running along the Embankment were a real feature of London for many years, and a popular subject for picture postcards.  And the Embankment lines were the last to be converted.

Now would you like to try to find the Washington DC major construction project that featured new conduit streetcar track that opened in 1949?  Again, this was not a new route, but change in an existing one, one that was all-conduit.

There is a name associated with the construction that is also associated with a stop on the NEC, associated, not the name itself.   And the construction was not a performing arts center.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, August 4, 2014 8:17 AM

London extended one of the few remaining postwar tram lines to service the grounds of the "Festival of Britain" in 1951, on the site of the Great Exhibition which featured the Crystal Palace in 1851.  All tram service in London ended in 1952. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, August 3, 2014 1:54 PM

Washington was one of the two cities involved in this question, but not New York. The last new condujit track in New York was put down in 1936, when the Broadway-42nd Street line of Third Avenue Rys, was rerouted through Columbus Circle (59th St. - B'way. Central Pk W.-8th Avenue) after the 8th Avemue Central Park West line of New York Railways (actually the 8th and 9th Avenue Railways sub sidiary) became the No. 10 bus.   The Washington DC tracks were put down in 1948-1949.   The line was all conduit, the tracks were a small portion of the total line.   Embassy Row was nearby.

The other city was not New York.   The major construction is sill in use and its most important feature was renovated only a few years ago.   The particular line always evokes river.   The tracks were first used in 1951 or 1953.   Unlike the DC project above, the system knew the new trackage would be out of service only a few years after installation.

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Posted by wanswheel on Friday, August 1, 2014 3:18 AM

It seems there was a state law that eventually caused conduit streetcars. It was written years earlier and for a different purpose. 

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Posted by NorthWest on Friday, August 1, 2014 12:34 AM

Yes. The two main users were NYC and DC, both for aesthetic reasons. Both of these cities also had pole operation.

While only those cities were major users, I suspect we would have seen conduit in  San Francisco had the 1906 earthquake not occurred.  

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Posted by NP Eddie on Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:35 PM

Dave:

I have never heard of streetcars being powered by a conduit. Is this a pole underneath the car that travels along a slot in the street? Was this an eastern power pickup system or it used in other parts of the country?

The Twin Cities Rapid Transit system used overhead wires and trolley poles.

Thanks,

Ed Burns

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, July 31, 2014 3:31 AM

Both cities had streetcars running underground, as well as both conduit and trolley operation.   They shared another distinction too.

Should I give up on getting an answer or answers?   Give the answer and ask another question?

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, July 29, 2014 10:29 AM

One of the results of the construction projects is still usable, renovated recently, the other city's is abandoned.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 28, 2014 1:31 PM

The two instances of post-WWII conduit track construction were both associated with construction of something other than just track, other matters that did involve pouring concrete.  In one case, abandonment of streetcars was already decided, and the system that installed the track knew it would be used only for a few years.   In the other case, this was not the case, and abandonment was not particularly desired by the system's owners.   In both cases, costs of the overall project were paid by funds outside the expenditures of the transit systems themselves.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 28, 2014 8:46 AM

A few years after the last streetcars were gone, the area in front of Union Station was reconfigured, but I believe this was only after the streetcars had been replaced by buses.  If I am wrong, please correct me with the details.

The arrangement that existed for many years and as far as I remember as long as streetcars continued, was on of three long platforms.   The one nearest to the station was for taxis, and then there were two for streetcars with two tracks.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, July 28, 2014 3:57 AM

You may know something I do not know .  In the 30's, sometime after Capitol Transit was formed from the two previous companies (which shared track in many places) the double loop arrangement with two boarding platforms that I remember replaced the previous stub-end terminals.  What if any was the later arrangement?

Can you check on your information and give details?

During WWII Capitol Transit did build a conduit branch to the Navy Dept. Hq., but I am looking for something later.   Possibly you have the answer, but if your check for details draws a blank, please look elsewhere  I did visit Washington on business during the period, I don't remember any change at Union Station.    Come to think of it, there really are two answers, both about the same time.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, July 27, 2014 2:53 PM

If I remember correctly, DC Transit built a new layout in the vicinity of Washington Union Station in the late 1950s, used until 1962.  PRR trains supplied the electric railway service in the neighborhood.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, July 27, 2014 1:20 PM

Hint:  It was later than you may think, and it did not last in service for many years.  And there is talk of light rail in its neighborhood now, and the probability is that it will happen.  The neighborhood was never completely without electric railway service after the conduit tracks ceased being used.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, July 26, 2014 2:49 PM

In what city, approximately where and when, was the last conduit streetcar track constructed and why?

I mean classic conduit, with a slot between the two rails, and detachable "plow" with positive and negative contacts, one on each side, suspended into the slot from above.

Please note that some systems throughout the world suspended the plow from the truck bolster, and others from the car body.   But in both situations, the plow could move side-side.  In Wahington, DC, the movement was more restricted than in New York City, and in London, less restricted then New York City.   Budapest, Paris, I don't know and would be happy to be told.

There was also a short period of conduit operation in Boston in 1888=1889, but it lasted less than a year.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Saturday, July 26, 2014 11:27 AM

I'll give it to Dave.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, July 26, 2014 7:19 AM

On further review CSSHEGWISCH has an answer that's close enough. 

In 1956, CRI&P reworked the Kansas City-Dallas Texas Rocket, renaming trains 27 and 28 the Kansas City Rocket, which ran as a conventional train with trailing RDC3 from Kansas City to El Reno, Oklahoma.  From El Reno to Fort Worth, the RDC handled the run.  The portion from Fort Worth to Dallas was dropped, since it would require a crew change at Fort Worth.

The RDC's engines had to idle from Kansas City to El Reno to provide heat/AC and lights.

Since Dave got the New York Central, I'll let you guys decide who gets the next question.

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Posted by KCSfan on Saturday, July 26, 2014 7:00 AM

The Minneapolis - Dallas Texas Rocket - Mark

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, July 25, 2014 4:07 PM

Right route, wrong train name.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, July 25, 2014 10:32 AM

daveklepper

The Texas Rocket from Kansas City?

The Texas Rocket was a Dallas-Houston train.  You probably mean the Twin Star Rocket between Minneapolis-St. Paul and Dallas.  I believe that the RDC was part of the consist south of Kansas City and operated solo south of Herington, KS.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul

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